| Author | Message | ||
     Swampy |
ABS is a very cool thing if you have time to stop. ABS is fine if it is working properly, but malfunctions result in accidents. I had a Suburban that would activate the ABS due to a mechanical malfunction that caused the sensors to read a lock up when one was not occuring, the brake system would go into Hold and I would regularly "coast" through stop signs and red lights. Butt pucker moment for sure. So think about a sensor mis-read or an intermittant open occuring in a wiring harness, say in a right hand turn, or maybe when the you just start braking and the forks brake dive a little, the open occurs in the wiring harness, the computer opens the pressure to stop the lockup that is not occuring on the front brake....think BIG butt pucker! | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"Did I mention I know the guy riding the bike and I would like to have his job....." +1! Permit me to ramble if I may... For a long time I haven't been a huge fan of ABS or traction control, and "stability control" systems even more so. My reason for not liking them is twofold - the extra complexity and associated weight, and the "nanny factor", ie systems interfering when I am not in any danger. Electronic control systems are limited to the scenarios they can react to by the number and type of input sensors they use to read the situation, but ultimately the system can only be as "smart" as the designer/programmer(s) of the system. In recent years my attitude has changed as systems have become more sophisticated and look at more than just wheel speed to determine there outputs. The latest C-ABS system on the Honda CBR-RR's looks very good to me. It's interference is minimal, and it appears to measure speed, lean angle, change in yaw and possibly more to determine it's output. I'm intrigued that it will employ the rear brake in some situations. Ducati's work in MotoGP and Superbike developing traction control may have benefits for ABS too. From what I've read they've developed some very clever software for accounting in the change of rolling radius of the tyre with lean angle which has given them a jump ahead in technology. Racing improves the breed  . "You cannot use your brakes to control an intended slide with ABS. " If ABS could determine it was an intentional slide and not interfere, would you see ABS differently? "This is why I am so adamant about people learning to ride on dirt bikes. I really feel that if you cannot ride sideways, control a slide..." I wish I had learned to ride on dirt, but after 20 years of riding my dirt experience is almost nil. Riding sideways or sliding is not something I'm comfortable with, but I wish it was. I've often thought of doing an off-road course or buying a cheap dirt bike but never done it. I used to own a Ford Probe (the V6 GT), a lovely car with an unfortunate name. It had ABS and I used to love practicing emergency stops and learning where the ABS would cut in without fear of totally flat spotting the tyres. I learned that I could push the brakes harder on some surfaces that I previously thought. If my 1125R had ABS I would be able to do the same - practice harder emergency stops with fearing I could bin and trash the bodywork. I wouldn't mind a really clever ABS system on the 1125R, but I'd prefer no ABS to a poor ABS setup. "...the brake system would go into Hold and I would regularly "coast" through stop signs and red lights. Butt pucker moment for sure." That's shocking. | ||
| Dbird29 |
If they must mandate just mandate the ABS will be the same price and see how popular it is. | ||
| Delta_one |
I loved abs on my 04 Jetta. saved my paint at least once (stupid deer), one side of the car on low traction surface the other side on decent traction. I didn't have the ability to brake hard on one side of the car, one pedal one pressure. brake as hard as the better surface will allow and lock up one side possibly causing loss of control or only brake as hard as the slippery surface will allow and not stop in time? I could hear each tire locking up and chirping along the bumpy road surface during a "brake check" (intentional planned "panic stop" on an empty road for no real reason at all) one day. tire A would drop into a wallow and chirp as it locked up and then bite again, steering was very straight with no pulling to either side. bumps did much the same thing, chirp and then back to a hum in nearly the same instant. the older ABS systems sucked. one channel if tire A locks up tires B C and D were also let off. modern systems modulate each brake independently, something no driver can do. I had a bad experience where I could not make the brakes work in the snow in my dads old Subaru (late 80's early 90's legacy), in fact after I told him what happened he said "oh yea I meant to tell you about that" the end of our road comes to a T, I know it is there and it never takes me by surprise. I brake early for it and start slowing down with plenty of time before the stop sign. one day after a snow storm (or during I cant remember) I started to slow down for the stop and couldn't, the brakes would not compress. All I could get was a pump pulsing as it was fighting in trying to push the pedal down. I tried to pump it and spoof it like I had heard my dad talk about but to no avail. I had no brakes because the road was too slippery, it didn't give me a little brake or a lot than none, it gave me none or at best next to nothing. I tried to slow the car down by downshifting and engine braking and even using the e brake but by the time I stopped panicking and figured out that the ABS had screwed me it was too late. I went right through the intersection sideways and into a field, as I dropped off the road I climbed on the gas and tried not to get stuck. as for ABS on a bike, I am ok with it as an option. I want it because I ride in any weather and when its raining hard the roads get slippery and cars see me even less. less traction and greater likelihood to get cut off makes me seek any advantage I can find. if it can be disabled like traction control all the better. I know that guys find ways to bypass it on their auto cross cars so I don't think that it would be long before guys are doing it on their bikes as well but a handlebar mounted switch would be ideal. you cant turn off the Honda ABS but I hear that the BMW ABS can be shut off along with all the other computer aids. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't want a one size fits all ABS system. If I have a "dual sport" bike that I might ride off pavement, I want to be able to switch the ABS off. An on road sport bike needs a different ABS system. We can tell horror stories about first generation ABS systems on cars from a 1988 Olds Broham, but modern ABS systems are fantastic in comparison. In the reports I've seen, only pro racers had stopping distances with conventional braking systems that beat ABS stopping distances. The stopping distance differences were no more than 3-5 feet. Given that the majority of the folks here are not at pro racer level, the ABS could be of significant benefit in reducing stopping distances. Normal human riders had SHORTER stopping distances with ABS than with out. The reason was that pro racer's were comfortable with stopping right at the ragged edge of tire traction. Every day riders rarely were able to stop at that level without over powering the tire and exceeding the traction of the contact patch. The ABS allowed every day riders to get closer to the edge of tire traction without blowing past it. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I have never ridden a motorcycle with ABS brakes so I can't comment on them but I don't care for them on my car so I just don't think I would want them on a motorcycle. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I have never ridden a motorcycle with ABS brakes so I can't comment on them but I don't care for them on my car so I just don't think I would want them on a motorcycle. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I have ridden lots of motorcycles with ABS. I wouldn't have (minor) spine damage now if my Buell had ABS. I like ABS. I like the systems with the ability to disengage best - for when I do want to stunt - but I'd mostly leave it on. It would be a better investment than Buell luggage. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
A little test for all... A magazine did a comparison last year of ABS vs non-ABS when the CBR600RR with C-ABS came out. For a dry stop from 100mph, match the bike to the distance: Honda CBR600RR (ABS), BMW K1300S (ABS), Triumph Daytona 675 (no ABS) 98.5m (323ft) 110.3m (362ft) 114.9m (377ft) No cheating if you've read the article! | ||
| Swampy |
Triumph Honda Bmw In that order | ||
| Danger_dave |
Stop dicking about and just tell me. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Honda BMW Triumph | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Anyone else going to have a stab?  | ||
| Danger_dave |
You, if you don't spill. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
 ...............................  | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
and then... | ||
| Britchri10 |
I'm with swampy on this one! Triumph Honda BMW Chris C | ||
| Etennuly |
I'm guessing T - H - B also. | ||
| Malott442 |
I just bought my first ABS bike: LOVE IT Anyone who says they hate it either: 1. Has not tried it 2. Had to pay to replace the pump. | ||
| Spike |
While I'd love to beat my chest about how great my riding abilities are and how I can ride better without ABS in special circumstances, the reality is that I suck. I'm a decent rider, but the odds are against me. Statistically, the day is coming when I'll be tired or distracted, it will be raining or dark, I won't see the spilled antifreeze or transmission fluid or dirt on the road, and a deer will jump out or a car will pull out and I'll need to stop as quickly as possible. In that moment a modern ABS system will be able to determine the available traction better than I and ABS may be the difference between staying upright or sliding into the object I wanted to avoid. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Drum roll please....  100mph - 0mph, dry BMW K1300S (ABS) 98.5m (323ft)  Honda CBR600RR (ABS) 110.3m (362ft) Triumph Daytona 675 (no ABS) 114.9m (377ft) The Beemer surprised me too! The test was in the June '09 issue of Performance Bikes. They also tested a ZZR1400 with ABS, but the data was corrupted for the 100mph dry stop. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Other results from the test: Dry Gatso Stop (100mph-60mph) K1300S 60.4m ZZ-R1400 64.9m CBR600RR 66.8m Daytona 675 69.1m Wet Gatso Stop (100mph-60mph) K1300S 62.7m CBR600RR 75.9m ZZ-R1400 76.5m Daytona 675 87.3m Wet Stop(100mph-0mph) K1300S 104.5m ZZ-R1400 121.2m CBR600RR 128.5m Daytona 675 145.1m "Gatso" is pommie for speed camera. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Every review I've seen said that for the CBR600RR with C-ABS said that the pro racers were only able to best the ABS score with practice on dry roads and couldn't even touch the ABS stopping distances without ABS. I'm surprised the BMW did as well as it did. I'm not surprised the Triumph without ABS wasn't first. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I have had some ERC students with ABS on their bikes..... It saved their bacon on the quick stop FO SHO. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Every review I've seen said that for the CBR600RR with C-ABS said that the pro racers were only able to best the ABS score with practice on dry roads and couldn't even touch the ABS stopping distances without ABS. I've seen similar comments in magazines too. And they say the system is extremely unobtrusive. I read somewhere that a team (German team maybe?) was going to race a CBR1000RR with C-ABS this year in Superstock1000. I'm surprised the BMW did as well as it did. Surprised, and impressed, me too, and its wet distances aren't that much more than the dry. | ||
| Xb1125r |
Mat Mlading hated ABS for a reason! if you need ABS you are probably too old to be riding a sportbike in the first place | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Old age and treachery will always defeat youth and skill  I'm allowed to say that now that I'm approaching 40... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Well if Matt Mladin says it, it must be true. So if Mladin hates broccoli, broccoli must be bad too, right? | ||
| Buell2001b |
I think when a guy who has won so many AMA titles says ABS is a waste, I would think he knows what he is talking about. Don't you think!!! | ||
| Xb1125r |
Mat Mladin might think you are a complete idiot, but I would not think you are a complete idiot. Maybe just an idiot |
