| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Rocco, You leap far. Of course you've never ever heard of nefarious union tactics aimed at punishing non-union shops. It certainly doesn't seem as far fetched at you imagine. How do you excuse so many engines showing up with so much trouble? You have two choices, gross incompetence or intentional malevolence. Which would it be? Either way, union no look good. | ||
| Blake |
Jerry, Harley telling Buell that they are taking over the engine that was to power the first Buell liquid cooled superbike then cruiserizing it thus making it unusable as a sport bike engine. How would you character that style of management? Dishonest and a failure! Harley-Davidson telling Buell they shall not procure the Aero-Research turbo, that they'd invent their own instead, then after wasting lots of good money, nothing. How would you describe that manner of management? Dishonest! FAILURE! Harley telling Buell they shall not release a fully faired version of their sport bike, though that is what the market demands in that class. FAILURE! Quoting engine cost for XBikes for budgetary planning then later demanding a huge increase as production commences. Dishonest, poor management, FAILURE! Pretending that selling off the 1125 line of Buell which had ZERO HDMC content was impossible due to its tangled relation with H-D? Blatant lie! Pure nonsense. Telling Buell that the cancellation of their new facility didn't bode anything dire for the company. Not truthful. Would I have condoned the greedy practices of H-D Fanancial? NO @#$%^ing way! It was absurd. No good businessman ever counts on such absurdly rosy economic forecasts. And frankly I could never stomach anything more than a 48 month loan on a recreational vehicle. It's immoral. Yes, it reflects greed, meaning excessive desire for material wealth. "Excessive" meaning not healthy, beyond acceptable. Profit well-earned is good. Reckless greed mongering is evil. The greed-heads responsible for the financial catastrophe at HDI should have been on the block, not BMC. The death of BMC cost more than it saved and killed what promised to be a wildly successful entrance into the major player market of sporting motorcycles. Can you find ANY valid business case, given what we know, for not selling the liquid-cooled line along with BMC rather than having to take a loss of some $100M in order to pay off the contract with Rotax and others and to shut the place down and pay millions in severance to all the out of work employees? I'd sure love to hear any valid reason. I've been digging to find one. Nothing so far. (Message edited by blake on April 27, 2010) | ||
| Paw |
Quote from Blake "Have you ever heard of any malicious behavior by union thugs to damage a business?" After being in and out of union businesses the last 20 years...My answer to this question is no never. But I have heard of non-union thugs hurting a business to kill unions. | ||
| Blake |
Me too. The CEO of what was then Vertex Communications Corporation vowed to shut the company down if the day ever came where labor chose to unionize. He'd dealt with union labor all his life prior to founding the company with his partners. He hated them. He was (still is) a fair and honorable man who I know personally. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/HDI/9020699 10x0x270343/4665262d-0900-4ca4-b455-6f7ff7cc3611/C G_BoardList.pdf How many have any significant background in the recreational vehicle let alone motorcycle market? One that I can see, Mr. James. Blake, you've got me on the "core" experience angle. I've been looking thru my "Notice of Annual Meeting and Proxy Statement" dated March 19, 2010 (88 pages, not counting appendices - yikes!), boning up on who the Board of Directors is and what their individual experience is (each member has a paragraph-long synopsis, a "tale of the tape" as it were). You're right, there's very little "recreational" or "motorcycle" business experience among the group, but my goodness, one can't help be impressed by the wealth of combined knowledge and experience these folks have in their particular fields of expertise. These folks are NOT fools. This is not a group of vindictive "yes men" and "yes women" in my opinion - these folks appear to be captains of their particular industries, just as one would expect. Since their "job" isn't product planning (that's what salaried management is for, after all), I think the argument that the board is not qualified to serve Harley-Davidson because of their lack of direct motorcycle business experience is not valid. Furthermore, reading thru the dozens and dozens of pages of legalese, and knowing that EVERY move the board (including Mr. Wandell) makes is highly scrutinized from multiple different angles and sectors (including the US Securities and Exchange Commission), it seems difficult to imagine how the board could kill Buell out of "vengeance" and somehow manage to hide the crime. No, not saying it couldn't be done - you and Reep are the business gurus and I'm not - but these folks would have a lot to lose if they are playing "dirty" and get caught. Anyway, it's been illuminating (and a real time-burner!) today having this mature, gentlemanly conversation with you. I hope I haven't sullied your reputation too badly...  | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I earned a lot of money when union made 360 CID Ford pick up engines were at the end of their production...just say'n | ||
| Paw |
Quote from Jerry"Speaking of which: If H-D DID kill off Buell for vindictive reasons, it begs the question WHY???" Harley was raping Buell on the engine cost that was the only thing H-D sold to Buell and with Erik crushing the Blast and going to Bombardier for their motors. H-D was going to lose to much business...Erik was heading down a path H-D did not want to go down head to head against the Jap and italians...With the blast crushed the XB may have found the same fate one day. H-D over charged Buell for the motors which made them a lot of money. But to keep the cost of the Buell competative. Buell had to price them lower than they wanted to and did not turn a good profit on each bike. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
PS before I call it a night: And frankly I could never stomach anything more than a 48 month loan on a recreational vehicle. It's immoral. You're talking to someone that H-D Financial Services took a chance on. Ever since my declaration of bankruptcy in 1999 (directly related to my at-that-time infatuation with Buell motorcycles, ironically enough), it's been an uphill battle to get my financial feet back under me. I doubt I'll live long enough to repair all the damage. Thanks to HDFS' willingness to extend credit to a loser like me, I get to own and ride the motorcycle of my dreams. A couple more years of working my ass off and it'll truly be mine. If all of this is "immoral," well, that's your opinion, not mine. Good night. FB | ||
| Blake |
Don't take it personal. I mean it's immoral for HDF, the lender, not the buyer. It is what I'd call usury. How is a board supposed to know anything about the future market and best most profitable direction for the company if they have little to no experience in the market or with the product. I'm not implying that the board acted vindictively, not at all. They did act flippantly and ignorantly though. Others who had their ear and much influence in corporate politics behaved vindictively. | ||
| Rex |
I have seen both sides, the union member side and the board room side. In the food industry, when working in the store, we had the big union guys come down and talk to us about our brothers over in Missouri. They suggested the following thing for us to do: -Ride our motorcycles up there and cruise the lot all day, riding close to customers and scaring them away. -go in the store and do the following things. -unloosen the caps on all of the purex bottles, so that when the women would grab them and put in their carts, it would spill out all over them. -Unloosen all of the caps on the syrup and turn the bottles upside down and let the sticky syrup run all down the shelves and on the floor. -Many other things. We just looked at other and said what...? we aren't going to do that. They tried to work us up into a frenzy and get us excited to go up and do some damage. I have seen the side of the board room too. Trying to survive and make a profit. Closing stores that were not performing, cutting out ordering of supplies, cutting people on what we called Black fridays, and hearing guys trying to get a certain politian elected, since he was not for the union labor guys, and the local growers. the other candidate was trying to help the local growers and farmers get a better deal. The one candidate was on the big business side, and was getting their money support. I saw the poor folks loose out and the big guys win. So I have seen the unions try to get their folks to hurt the companies, on the assembly line, on the front lines, etc. Too bad on both sides. | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
I was a union employee at HD for 5 years, and I see nothing that Blake has said that I disagree with. | ||
| 2kx1 |
I haven't seen any of the above with regards to union led sabotage. What I have seen is making someone else a ton of money due to thier lack of thought and not being recognized or rewarded for it. YOUR job can always be done for less. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Don't take it personal. Not takin' it too personal, amigo, or else I wouldn't be behavin' all mature and gentlemanly. How is a board supposed to know anything about the future market and best most profitable direction for the company if they have little to no experience in the market or with the product? Um, 'cause they're pretty smart? Seriously, in this electronic full-disclosure age there's no shortage of ways to study up on who these people are and what their business backgrounds are. For example, Google up Barry K. Allen, H-D's Chairman of the Board. Pretty savvy guy, I'd say. Furthermore, these folks' "job" is not to decide product planning. Your point is taken, but I still argue that it's not particularly valid. As for your allegations of sabotage and the like, that's pretty strong stuff, amigo. I don't want to get anyone in "trouble," and I do remember from my "professional" Ferris Bueller days that there didn't seem to be much love lost for Erik Buell on behalf of the folks "inside" Harley-Davidson that I came in contact with. This puzzled me then, and does to this day. I'm no wizard at any of this stuff, but I'm smart enough to know there's a lot more to ANYTHING than meets the eye, particularly in the world of big business. I'll continue to sponge-up any and all information I can find, and maybe someday all the alleged "sordid" details will be made public. In the meantime, I enjoy my H-D motorcycle, and recognize and respect the legacy of the company and the folks who built it. I wish Erik the best. He's been more than kind to me on several occasions when I probably didn't deserve such kindness, and I've seldom met or seen anyone in the "spotlight," regardless of field of endeavor, who was so generous and sharing of their time, enthusiasm and knowledge. Back to w*rk for me, amigo - there's another RK payment on the horizon... FB | ||
| Nevrenuf |
That might explain all of the metal shavings left in my X1's oil passageways... strange that you should mention that steve. when my second 02m2 went down, the cases had to be split and he said that shavings were in there also??? | ||
| Blake |
Paw, "After being in and out of union businesses the last 20 years...My answer to this question is no never. " Really!? If you're continuing to read this thread, your answer has just changed. I've never been a member of any union; but I've heard of numerous cases of criminal behavior by union thugs. | ||
| Jb2 |
Ferris, You my friend spend way too much time on the computer. I had no idea you had even responded to my post but dared reading through 20 other posts to see you did!  The last HD I owned and rode was a '93 XL1200. The last HD I owned was a '72 MSR100 that I sold in 2002. I count the Buells as Buells, not Harleys, but you can put me down for 4 of them on top of the 5 Harleys. So what was your point for asking? ... I'm lost now. You are right, I shucked HD as a desirable bike for me long before I met you. I have rode many newer ones including Mikey's Super Glide and his Road Toad. They both sucked major wind. But that's how I score them. Results may vary by rider. Saying there is no way to have a gentlemanly discussion was partly satire. I don't consider myself a gentleman... sounds too girly-man to me! I'd rather be known as hard-core redneck. Mikey thinks I'm pretty close to catching him in that regard so I'm quite satisfied with the world from my helmet view. JB2 | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Ferris, You my friend spend way too much time on the computer. JB2, I sit at this frikkin' boob-box from 4:30 in the morning to 10 o'clock at night, usually six days a week, earning my daily bread (doing my part to keep Harley-Davidson Financial Services in business, doncha know...). So yes, you're right - I spend way too much time on the computer. The last HD I owned and rode was a '93 XL1200...So what was your point for asking? Just curious what your experience base is in terms of H-D ownership. I have rode many newer ones including Mikey's Super Glide and his Road Toad. They both sucked major wind. I'm curious why his bikes didn't pass muster with you. Go ahead, I can take it. Results may vary by rider. They always do. Saying there is no way to have a gentlemanly discussion was partly satire. I don't consider myself a gentleman... sounds too girly-man to me! Yeah, I know. But I know you well enough to know you're not quite the grizzled, hard-core, take-no-prisoners redneck you pretend to be. Don't worry - I won't tell anyone... | ||
| Oldog |
JB2 sorry dude no ce-gar on the red neck thing, I mean How many hay bales does the car hold?. Mine about 6 Interesting debate, in the end acidemic BMC as we know it is gone. Ferris you or JB2 either one could probably school a lot of "biker" types on a Burgman.. In the end we all Hope that Erik will Again emerge as the creative spark that drives the creation of a great motor cycle and perhaps a new moto co. The HD story while I have no information From My own life experiences, the things that are "said" to have happened likely did. I have been on the $hit end of that kind of stick, I will say this LIFE IS CIRCULAR and what goes round I am seeing this first hand ...... I still laugh at the south park episode, and at times see myself as one of the "fags" ( being visible is good ) In the end for me, Buell MC is gone, when the Pearl is paid off, and the X1 is parked in the den as art. A Suzuki bandit or similar utility moto suitable for comfortable 2 up at reasonable price will be in the garage, on the day I can no longer ride I guess I will take up stamp collecting / bird watching or the like Till then Ride what you brung. | ||
| Jramsey |
>>school a lot of "biker" types on a Burgman. I resemble that statement  | ||
| B00stzx3 |
BMC will never die! Whatever Erik makes I will consider a tried and true Buell. My paint and logos will say Buell. And there's not a dayum thing HD can do about it. I ain't afraid of their copyright goons. I to am a redneck Jb2, and we ain't scared of nothin! (Message edited by b00stzx3 on April 28, 2010) | ||
| Jb2 |
FB1, Glad you caught that comment in the right context. I know from the dent in your office chair that you spend way too much time on the confuser. It may lead to tunnel vision. Be careful brother. RE Mikey's HDs; The Super Glide was a major disappointment in terms of power and handling. Brakes sucked... basically didn't work. The Road Glide I was expecting to fall in love with and have to explain why I went out and bought a new Harley but, that didn't happen. His is an '02 or around there and the swingarm isolators were shot. The bike wiggled in the middle like a half dead snake when going around the curves. It was Kim's first time in the wind since '94 so I did my best to not alarm her about the problem while riding. I had a friend who is a damn good rider that got into a high speed wobble on a comparable model and crashed hard. The cause was determined to be a complete failure of the swing arm isolators. His bike was an '04 Ultra Classic. It seemed all the Buell haters(including many HD guys) had cause to bad mouth the Buells on their recalls and reliability issues, many of those arguments played out here. Why hasn't Harley recalled all the models with this defect? We put Mikey's Road Glide on the lift after our ride and was able to move his swing arm side to side several inches. The bike was unsafe to ride. Period. It's basically an 8 year old antique and I wouldn't own one. I know you are a charming and reasonable gentleman and there is still one Harley I would own if you'd just keep pestering Arlen Ness. Pleeeeease? Oldog, I have a truck and it'll hold a huge number of hay bales. I have a Confederate flag painted on the roof of my '48 Ford Rat Truck. I own a CB radio, many guns and I am a Christian-Conservative. I think you owe me a few cee-gars! Payable in May of course when I'll be glad to swap shots of 'shine witchya! JB2 P.S. Oldog, I own every Ray Wylie Hubbard CD ever made... there's more redneckness in my closet but those aforementioned are the most important. P.S. II Oldog, I regress. I do not own a flamed shotgun. I just wanted to make that perfectly clear in case Road Thing finds this thread. (Message edited by JB2 on April 28, 2010) | ||
| Jb2 |
B00stzx3, Hey glad to know ya. Maybe I ain't as fearful and fearless as Ferris stated but I'm red all the way to my white bones! JB2 | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
on the day I can no longer ride I guess I will take up stamp collecting / bird watching or the like Till then Ride what you brung. Words of wisdom from one of the wisest men I know. Thx Oldog. JB2: RE Mikey's HDs; The Super Glide was a major disappointment in terms of power and handling. Brakes sucked... basically didn't work. Brakes and handling suck on my RK, too. Getting the handling "better" with the stock components is a bit of an art (the only adjustment is air pressure in the rear shocks), but the brakes - specifically, the front brakes - are a joke. Shame on Harley for such things. I hear that the brakes on the newer model Harleys (Brembos up front) are much better, but I don't have any seat time to back that up. Some day, over the rainbow, I'll swap out the RK's binders for PM units all the way around, and get after the suspension, too. In the meantime, I have to agree with you. I was always content with the power on the RK in stock form (88-incher), and you know I don't baby my motors. I am even more content after doing some simple hot-rod mods to it, to whit, a K&N air filter assembly, custom-mapped PCIII, and custom-baffled Rush mufflers. I got all three items thru one vendor, an outfit up in Wisconsin who dynos prolly every motorcycle made (including Harleys), and sells the package as just that: a package. The map in my PCIII was developed SPECIFICALLY for an '06 88-inch touring Harley, SPECIFICALLY for the custom-baffled Rush's and the K&N. It was all plug 'n play, $700 shipped to my door. So simple a child (or Ferris) could do it. It's been a bullet-proof system, gaining me more power, a cooler-running engine, decent fuel economy (45+ mpg if I don't beat on her too hard), and easily convertible back to stock. Anyway, I know Harleys aren't about big HP, but you know that I expect a lot out of my motorcycles, and even two-up and loaded I've seldom wished for more. Oh yeah, one last thing: Unlike my former FJR, on which I could torch a brand-new $200 rear tire over the course of a long weekend, I consistently get 8-10,000 miles from a rear tire on the RK. Such frugality with my rubber makes FB very happy, indeed. The Road Glide I was expecting to fall in love with and have to explain why I went out and bought a new Harley but, that didn't happen. His is an '02 or around there and the swingarm isolators were shot. The bike wiggled in the middle like a half dead snake when going around the curves. I've heard many similar stories. How many miles on his bike at the time? My isolators are still nominal, but at 40+ thousand miles they're prolly getting close. I hear there are high-perf alternatives in the aftermarket, but I've done no research (yet) to back that up. On the RK, getting the air pressure in the shocks correct for the load is absolutely critical. If I'm off more than about 5 psi for the conditions (one-up, two-up, two-up and loaded) the bike will take bumpy corners just the way you describe Mikey's bike. I really and truly hope that one of the consequences of Harley re-focusing on its "core" customers is that they stop treating us like idiots when it comes to brakes and suspension. Again, I hear the new touring platforms are much improved over mine, but dammit, we're smart enough out here (most of us, anyway) to know junk when we see it (or ride it), and having sucky front brakes (and a hinge in the middle of the frame) on an 800-pound motorcycle just ain't right. Gotta get back to w*rk. I'll give Arlen another call here in a bit. He'll cave one of these days........... | ||
| Oldog |
I do not own a flamed shotgun. I just wanted to make that perfectly clear in case Road Thing finds this thread I may have to sneak off to Franklin for Friday any way, ce-gars are always better with friends, JR yeah that does resemble you ( I still laugh about it )}sides - you know how many beers that bergman will carry hmmmm check yer nek  | ||
| Jb2 |
FB1, Kevbob rebuilt his crashed bike and replaced the isolators with harder, polyurethane units. He also installed an aftermarket torque arm that mounts between the swingarm and frame. It seriously improved the bike's handling. Mikey is near the 60K mark with his Road Glide but says the shimmies started about the 25K mark. Said he hadn't noticed it getting any worse until he bought the Uly and started riding it as his primary bike. He was shocked at the side play to say the least. Four piston Brembos come standard on Victorys as does a whole bunch of "f***in' eh" when you grab a handful of throttle. Just sayin'... (Incentive) If you get Arlen to sell me that bike I'll wear a pink Harley shirt the first time I ride it. JB2 | ||
| Madduck |
Ferris, I am pretty sure I have one of those torque arm thingies in my garage, if you want it its yours. Might have been for an 07 Street Glide but I am pretty sure it would help your 06 RK. Might take me a little while to find. Everyone I talked with said it helped immensely. Basically it adds the motor isolator that EB designed into the dyna chassis and Harley left off for styling?? | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
ce-gars are always better with friends Oldog hits another one outta the park. Four piston Brembos come standard on Victorys as does a whole bunch of "f***in' eh" when you grab a handful of throttle. Just sayin'... Well, you whupped me runnin' across the heartland of Indiana that afternoon (and what a fine afternoon that was!), but not near as bad as I woulda expected considering all the advantages you had. Still, you won, I lost. Not that I keep track of such things... Madduck, great to see your name pop up, and thank you for the most generous offer. No hurry, but if you find this thingie I'd be happy to take it off your hands. And if you find it before Arlen caves, you can have JB2's pink Harley shirt in exchange... | ||
| Road_thing |
You rang?  rt | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
PS: Mikey is near the 60K mark with his Road Glide but says the shimmies started about the 25K mark. Said he hadn't noticed it getting any worse until he bought the Uly and started riding it as his primary bike. Speaking of Mikey, I still remember the first time I met him, and we all headed out towards Lost Bridge and Deals Gap. He was on his 'Glide, I was on my new V-Strom and you on your VFR. As we were pulling out of his driveway he turned around to us and said, "See if you ladies can keep up!" Ho ho, that was great fun pushing him down the road! Hope he's digging his new Uly (has he crashed it into any barbecues lately?). Wish I was rollin' in dough - I'da bought his SuperGlide in a frikkin' heartbeat. FB | ||
| Jb2 |
FB1, Dunno that there was much of a whuppin' involved in that little race but it was fun. Actually I thought you had the advantage because of your Harley and your Ferris-ness. You can smoke me in the curvy stuff anyway so it's nice to have an advantage even if it's just in the flatlands. +1 Oldog +1 Madduck JB2 |
