| Author | Message | ||
     Wolfridgerider |
sorry.... | ||
| Gunut75 |
.....but it was so damn funny too.........  | ||
| Paw |
I can see H-D building golf carts again in the future. Pretty soon all H-D's sold in the U.S.A. will be made in India. If the jackass had any brains for the motorcycling world. He would have sold MV the day he took the seat and re-badged the air cooled XB and Blast lines to read Harley Davidson on the tank and airbox covers. That would get the young riders they are wanting and keep the 1125's Buell and use it for R&D and racing and in Erik's control. But you can't expect to much from a guy who's main transportation is a golf cart. He needs his seven iron shoved up his ass. | ||
| Jaimec |
The minute you take a company like Harley Davidson, and try to run it as if it were any other, big, cookie-cutter business, is the minute the company loses its very identity and soul. It won't be long till everything is outsourced to cheap, "slave" labor in the far east or the Caribbean. Maybe they'll still manufacture the air cleaner covers here so at least THEY can proudly claim "Made in the USA" in large, embossed type... | ||
| Joshinga |
No they wont say "made in the USA" it will quietly change to "Assembled in the USA" and then that will slowly disappear all together and become what I said earlier. The once mighty Harley Davidson will be reduced to a small boutique shop and a shit load of t-shirt shops. | ||
| Blake |
As the Progressives/Socialists are the ruin of freedom and prosperity in America, the short-sighted corporate greed heads are the ruin of American industry. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
As the Progressives/Socialists are the ruin of freedom and prosperity in America, the short-sighted corporate greed heads are the ruin of American industry. Blake, try and stick with the topic! This was about Keith Wandell and had NOTHING to do with Progressive/Socialists! Keith Wandell has already killed the Buell Motorcycle Company and is NOT doing anything that will help the Harley-Davidson Motorcycles keep there company in business! I honestly don't think that Harley-Davidson is going to survive this bad management unless something changes and changes SOON!!! | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Give it a rest Blake. Stop poluting topics with your with your right wing bullshit agenda. But I am glad to see you finally admit there is such a thing as corporate greed. Kinda blows your blind therory of " leave the free market alone and it will take care of itself" out of the water. Moving to the topic at hand, maybe it's good they cut Erik loose. Won't sink with the ship now. | ||
| Whatever |
Speaking of outsourcing... my source has told me that much of our ammunition used in Iraq and Afghanistan is produced in eastern Europe... Hence, the billions of dollars spent on dismantling the plant in Wisco... I think outsourcing is pure EVIL... but it looks like Wandell is heading in that direction. How do you spell super-douche-canoe? W_A_N_D_E_L_L | ||
| Slaughter |
In our country, outsourcing of manufacturing is like a farmer eating his seed corn. Might feed you for a while as you're closing down the farm. | ||
| Slaughter |
One thing about American Machine and Foundry's running of Hardley: they DID modernize manufacturing operations. It did represent an advancement of their production tools from turn-of-the-century to modern era. AMF didn't do wonders for the models themselves or their marketing but they DID enable more modern production methods/tools. | ||
| Blake |
"Kinda blows your blind therory of " leave the free market alone and it will take care of itself" out of the water." You'll have to explain that. Failure of Harley-Davidson, if it happens, would be perfectly in line with free market principles. Realize too though that a free market would demand that China cease artificially devaluing their currency by tying it to the American dollar, no matter what. When other nations refuse to abide by free market principles, then I have ZERO problem slapping appropriate trade measures on them. Not sure why the idiots in Washington refuse to do so. | ||
| Blake |
"Stop poluting topics with your with your right wing bullshit agenda." If you'd prefer to find a more Socialist/Progressive friendly venue, please feel free to do so. I hope you'll stick around and open your mind. The direction that the idiots in Washington have been taking us, yes including the Republicans and Bush 43 has been straight towards Socialism. Recently that trend has been massively accelerated. You should have seen the presentation Glen Beck layed out yesterday. Just facts, people, money, relationships. Laymen Brothers and Al Gore; the Obama administration and Laymen Brothers. You'd have found it very interesting, if not shockingly revealing. Rocco, what do you think made America great? The forced confiscation of hard-earned income so that the academics/intellectuals/elitists could force "social-justice" upon all of us, or was it that America provided the most freedom to excel and a system whose goal is equal justice under the law for all? The fad among some to demonize "big business" or "big corporations" is just weak-minded populism, propaganda for the masses, class warfare. It is the exact same tactic employed by ALL the very worst mass murderers of the world, especially Stalin and Mao. It is pure evil. Go after the crooked greed-heads, leave the honest corporations to thrive and compete in a fair, free, open market. Is it your belief that there are no greedy power-hungry greed-heads among union leadership? Why are non-union corporations successful, their employees happy, and their products wonderful? Why are so many union-dominated corporations and industries failing in America? Why do we tolerate teachers who cannot teach? Why do we reward failure in our education systems? Do you imagine the same would occur in a free market system of education? When/if all the good paying jobs have left America, who do you imagine will be able to purchase anything of value? From what I'm seeing, we all better learn to grow our own food. The debt and big government takeovers that have been occurring at record shattering pace under the great leader and his Socialist regime are unsustainable. It will absolutely be the ruin of America. You cannot just print money and spend your way out of recession. The only proven way to curtail economic downturn is to lower taxes and let those corporations fail who deserve to do so. No more government-backed banks, or industry. You wince at big corporations. Your distrust is misdirected. It is big government that by far threatens our freedom and prosperity most of all. | ||
| Blake |
Rocco, what do you think made America great? The forced confiscation of hard-earned income so that the academics/intellectuals/elitists could force "social-justice" upon all of us, or was it that America provided the most freedom to excel and a system whose goal is equal justice under the law for all? | ||
| Blake |
I despise Wandell for what I view as his bewilderingly poor business decisions, what appears to me to be incredibly ignorant and poor long term market strategy, and for falling victim to really miserable internal corporate politics, but not for his salary. Likewise I'm disgusted at the lack of core business experience among the HDI board of directors. They've come to treat their core business more as a fashion fad in lieu of solid innovative products that sell themselves on their merits. FAIL! I am critical of his predecessor for falling into the same greed-head trap that caught the big mortgage brokers. H-D financial losing a half billion dollars thinking that giving 72 month financing was the new best way for HDI to make money was the result of a total and complete distraction from H-D's core business, selling the brand and the bikes. FAIL! (Message edited by blake on April 27, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
I will say that Wandell didn't make this mess, not at all, but in my view, he sure isn't doing the best job of solving it either. Rather he seems to be intent on making it worse. Of course I am hugely biased. The article by Steve Anderson is tough to argue against. We've not seen any rebuttal from HDI to any of Steve's reporting on what amounts to incredibly ignorant decisions by HDI at best or intentional sabotage of Buell at worst. I have the strong feeling that the latter played a significant role in Buell's demise at the hands of HDI. I'm very suspicious that union involvement was also a factor. What would you say if you learned that at one point almost half of the H-D manufactured engines received by Buell failed initial quality inspection and had to be returned to H-D? If that happened, what would it tell you? Have you ever heard of any malicious behavior by union thugs to damage a business? Corporations bad, unions good? Is that really your thinking? It sure comes across like that to me. | ||
| Spiderman |
You know what made America great!   A promise made in 1962 that we will reach the moon by the end of the decade. With not even a blueprint of said machine to get us there. Then on July 20, 1969 goal accomplished! | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Likewise I'm disgusted at the lack of core business experience among the HDI board of directors. They've come to treat their core business more as a fashion fad in lieu of solid innovative products that sell themselves on their merits. Blake, maybe we can do this maturely, courteously and as gentlemen?  If so: I would ask you to validate your comment that HDI's board of directors lacks core business experience. Second, I would argue that Harley-Davidson experienced unprecedented, record-setting financial growth (not just among motorcycle manufacturers, but among ANY industry) for 20+ years precisely because of solid innovative products that sell themselves on their merits. You, to my knowledge, have no significant seat time on any Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Please correct me if I'm wrong (please remember the "mature and courteous" thing I mentioned above ). If I'm correct, your blanket condemnation of Harley's product offering bears no more weight than someone who's never ridden a Buell taking critical shots at same. I have owned five Harleys over my riding career, three Big Twins - Shovel, Evo and Twin Cam - and two Sportsters - Ironhead and Evo. Harley has done an admirable job of updating their product offerings over the past quarter-century in a controlled, sustainable fashion. I do NOT have seat time on a Twin Cam Big Twin built on the new Touring platform, but I know how good my '06 is compared to what I started with (a '76 Shovel ElectraGLide), and what I've read about the new platform and the new (compared to mine) 96-inch engine has been very favorable indeed. I (try) to understand your venom for H-D these days, and I can't say for sure that Erik wasn't dealt a dirty hand, but speaking as someone with extensive experience with Harley's motorcycle offerings, these days they are very good indeed. Lastly for this post, H-D takes a lot of "abuse" for its marketing tactics over the past 20 years or so. I would argue that ANY company that can successfully sell their image has their marketing strategy figured out to a T. Furthermore, speaking as someone who knows how dreadfully crude the AMF-era motorcycles were, NO business could successfully sell their image - not for very long anyway - unless their product was worthy of the attention. Harley-Davidson has sold a lot of motorcycles in the past quarter century mostly because the motorcycles themselves were worthy of the investment on behalf of the purchaser. If "image" was also important to the purchaser at the time of sale, cool for the purchaser, and props to H-D for working such a successful marketing angle. ANY business in the world would be envious to be in such an enviable position. FB | ||
| Blake |
"Blake, maybe we can do this maturely, courteously and as gentlemen? : )" Wimp.  "I would ask you to validate your comment that HDI's board of directors lacks core business experience." http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/HDI/9020699 10x0x270343/4665262d-0900-4ca4-b455-6f7ff7cc3611/C G_BoardList.pdf How many have any significant background in the recreational vehicle let alone motorcycle market? One that I can see, Mr. James. "Second, I would argue that Harley-Davidson experienced unprecedented, record-setting financial growth (not just among motorcycle manufacturers, but among ANY industry) for 20+ years precisely because of solid innovative products that sell themselves on their merits." Solid, yes. Innovative, not so much. More evolutionary. "You, to my knowledge, have no significant seat time on any Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Please correct me if I'm wrong (please remember the "mature and courteous" thing I mentioned above : ) )." Girly man. You are mistaken amigo. I've ridden a number of Harley's and enjoyed most, FXR, Sportster, Road King, Dyna Wide Glide, Dyna Sport, Electra Glide, Street Glide. I was seriously in the market for a big touring rig, Street Glide or Road King model. Not anymore. It ain't the bike that is the issue for my change of heart. Jerry, if you've read my posts on BadWeB here before the demise of Buell, going back twelve years when you and I founded the place, I was nothing but a strong advocate and defender of the quality and value of Harley-Davidson motorcycles. The examples are legion, but finding them is not something I have time to do. You'll have to trust me on this. "If I'm correct, your blanket condemnation of Harley's product offering bears no more weight than someone who's never ridden a Buell taking critical shots at same." I'm not condemning their products. I'm condemning their short-sighted business strategy, their lies, and very much their underhanded and flippant treatment of Buell Motorcycle Company. Again, I've ridden a number of Harleys. Just last Summer I navigated one of the twistiest routes in the Texas Hill Country on a brand new Street Glide. Sweet machine! I wanted one. Really! Somewhere there's even a photo of me riding it I think. "Harley has done an admirable job of updating their product offerings over the past quarter-century in a controlled, sustainable fashion." I disagree. They completely ditched high performance sport bikes. H-D once ruled the high performance sport bike world, but in the late '60's to early '70's, some four decades ago they decided to abandon the market. That in my view was far from admirable. Have they evolved the cruiser and touring bike lines and admirably so? Yes. "I do NOT have seat time on a Twin Cam Big Twin built on the new Touring platform" I do (the '09 Street Glide) and it was so impressive that I put it atop my "next bike to purchase" list. "I know how good my '06 is compared to what I started with (a '76 Shovel ElectraGLide), and what I've read about the new platform and the new (compared to mine) 96-inch engine has been very favorable indeed." Agreed. But not a sporting model in sight. What a shame. "I (try) to understand your venom for H-D these days" They killed Buell through both really idiotic heavy-handed oppression and downright vindictive intent. Then they lied about not being able to sell Buell, giving a very lame excuse, ludicrous excuse. " I can't say for sure that Erik wasn't dealt a dirty hand" I can say for sure that miserable corporate politics, flippant short-sighted corporate management, overbearing oppression, and just plain lack of honesty concerning the development and growth of Buell did a great job of killing what would otherwise have been a very smart and successful corporation. "but speaking as someone with extensive experience with Harley's motorcycle offerings, these days they are very good indeed." They are very good cruisers and touring bikes. They are very, very poor sport bikes; they have no sport bikes. "Lastly for this post, H-D takes a lot of "abuse" for its marketing tactics over the past 20 years or so. I would argue that ANY company that can successfully sell their image has their marketing strategy figured out to a T." Image is important and worth exploiting and profiting upon. But it should never become the core of the business if you expect your products to remain market leaders. The decision to once again abandon the sport bike market is a huge gamble that I believe will prove extremely foolish and short-sighted. Buell won a national championship and was poised to sweep the sport bike market with a balls to the wall superbike, something that HDI prohibited Buell from doing for over a decade. Imagine if the 1125 platform had hit the market when the VRod first appeared. "Furthermore, speaking as someone who knows how dreadfully crude the AMF-era motorcycles were, NO business could successfully sell their image - not for very long anyway - unless their product was worthy of the attention." Agreed. No business can expand it market beyond those that it enters. The sport bike market and the offshoot sporting bike market is huge and growing. HDI has chosen to once again abandon that market, instead they are focusing on the cruiser and touring bike market in India. Huh? Harley-Davidson has sold a lot of motorcycles in the past quarter century mostly because the motorcycles themselves were worthy of the investment on behalf of the purchaser." Agreed. But you're still a wimp and a girly-man for wanting to get along and behave like a gentleman. "If "image" was also important to the purchaser at the time of sale, cool for the purchaser, and props to H-D for working such a successful marketing angle." Agreed. Again, when image overshadows incredible new products poised to grab huge share of the sport bike market, well, that is idiotic. The image wasn't going anywhere. And again, the loss of focus was more by the greed-heads in H-D Financial, thinking about how much money they were going to make giving out loans at high interest for 72 month terms. Oops, the economy send too many of those into default and the bikes weren't worth what was owed on the loans. Same upside-down problem that about wiped out the greed-heads in the mortgage industry. The greed-heads ran up some half a billion in losses due to bad loans and the result is Buell is killed off? Yet H-D Finance is still intact, the horrendous losses and HDI propped up by high interest loan by Warren Buffet? WTF? "ANY business in the world would be envious to be in such an enviable position." Four years ago, maybe. Not now. So to summarize. The bikes they build are good, some excellent. I like the Street Glide a LOT! The corporation and the way Buell was mismanaged literally makes me sick to my stomach. Having marketed, sold, and managed a number of multi-million dollar programs, and been highly successful doing so, meaning earned millions of dollars of profit for my employer, I think I have a pretty good feel for what constitutes sound management. As a Buell enthusiast I am very biased on the whole demise of BMC perpetrated by HDI, but I'm going on the facts and reliable information from those who suffered at the hands of overbearing, vindictive and jealous players inside the corporate politics of HDI. Bikes good. Greed-heads of H-D Financial bad. Mismanagement, vindictive politics, and dishonesty within HDI concerning Buell very bad. H-D could build the absolute best motorcycle ever made and give it away. I'd not own one or ride one. Not until or unless they change my view of the whole ordeal wrt Buell. (Message edited by blake on April 27, 2010) | ||
| Jb2 |
Been around a few years and there seems to be no gentlemanly way to disagree when it comes to motorcycle brands and the loyalty of their owners. I've owned 5 Harleys too and vowed to NEVER own another. Well, one exception, and Ferris knows which bike it is but he's never convinced the owner to sell it to me... so no more Harleys in my future. On one side, I know many HD riders personally, all are riders first and Harley owners second. Having said that, I still can't get over the HD snobbery of the area I live in. It reminds of the attitude and simple-mindedness that closed Buell. Don't know all the facts and I don't care but HD is at the very bottom of my want list(except for that one bike). If anything this thread shows people are anchored as much by the things they dislike as much as the things they like. I would have never made a good pirate anyway! | ||
| Reepicheep |
One of the big draws of Harley for me was the connection to American engineering, American innovation, and the American dream. As of the close of Buell, particularly in refusing to sell the assets to interested buyers that were willing to continue the brand, they burned every bit of the (substantial) karma those things carried for me. I can't get past the fact that there could be a lot of Buell employees making great bikes for another company today, were it not for greed, vindictiveness, and short sightedness of the Harley Davidson leadership. Such a huge personal cost to the people that served Harley Davidson (via Buell) for love... because it sure as hell wasn't for money. Then when push came to shove, Harley hung them out to dry. Any other company I might be more willing to forgive, but Harley isn't far from the day when they were about to be flushed by a big corporation that had no clue as how to run them, but set them free to succeed, to the good of the people and the country. For Harley to do to Buell what AMF didn't do to Harley, under eerily similar circumstances, is *&^%^&* unforgivable. Sorry. The rest of the Harley employees have my sympathies that they work for greedy ignorant *&^$%^%$. But they aren't getting any dime I earn that I can avoid giving them. If Harley announced tomorrow that they are selling the rights to Buell developed patents to an interested third party, and releasing all parties from all public and secret non compete agreements, and giving that third party reasonable access to relevant people and technology under appropriate NDA's... that would help. I'm not sure I could still forgive them, but I'd might be willing to keep my mouth shut about it. Matthew 18:23-25
I don't know all the facts, but it looks *really* bad from where I am sitting, and I pray (literally) that nobody ends up going to hell because of what went down and why. A lot of people were really hurt. | ||
| Jaimec |
Wandell is just doing as any pure capitalist would do with a publicly owned company... increase value for the shareholders BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. If that means gutting the heart and soul of the world's oldest, continually-operating motorcycle company, then that's what he'll do. When you are a publicly-traded company, your stockholders come FIRST, and EVERYTHING else (workers, customers, etc) are second. That's why you see stock values go UP when companies shed workers, cut costs, and offshore work. All that increases PROFIT, which in turn goes into the stock holder's pocket. If the stockholders decide there is more profit and less risk in T-shirts and leather jackets, then by GOD you can rest assured motorcycle production will slow and all efforts will be towards ramping up T-shirts and leather jackets. There's your "Unimpeded, free market" for you. Best thing that could happen to Harley is for a wealthy ENTHUSIAST to buy out all outstanding stock and take it private. | ||
| Blake |
Jaime, "Wandell is just doing as any pure capitalist would do with a publicly owned company... increase value for the shareholders BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY." I'm sure he imagines that is what he is doing, or at least he did at the time of his decision. I'm sure that he is an idiot and a fool, shortsighted and all to the detriment of stockholders. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Wimp. Yep, typical frikkin' Harley rider. http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/HDI/9020699 10x0x270343/4665262d-0900-4ca4-b455-6f7ff7cc3611/C G_BoardList.pdf How many have any significant background in the recreational vehicle let alone motorcycle market? One that I can see, Mr. James. I'll study this more and touch on it later. The word "core" in your assertion earlier was important, and I didn't give it enough weight in my reply. Solid, yes. Innovative, not so much. More evolutionary. Again, I didn't focus enough on a word, this time "innovative." I think I could argue this one a bit, but I'll concede that Harley's stunning financial success for the past quarter-century was built more on evolution than revolution. I really don't think they can be faulted for this business model, either - it has served them well for the past hundred or so years... Girly man. I'm an old, slow Harley rider, amigo. You are mistaken amigo. I've ridden a number of Harley's and enjoyed most... When I said "significant" seat time, I meant as a Harley-Davidson owner who rides a LOT, but your reply made it clear that you respect the overall goodness of Harley's motorcycles these days, and that's kinda what I wanted to hear. Jerry, if you've read my posts on BadWeB here before the demise of Buell, going back twelve years when you and I founded the place, I was nothing but a strong advocate and defender of the quality and value of Harley-Davidson motorcycles. The examples are legion, but finding them is not something I have time to do. You'll have to trust me on this. I don't have the time (or the desire) either. I trust your word. I'm not condemning their products. I'm condemning their short-sighted business strategy, their lies, and very much their underhanded and flippant treatment of Buell Motorcycle Company. Without writing a book, would you please elaborate on H-D's: - short-sighted business strategy - lies - flippant treatment of Buell I disagree. They completely ditched high performance sport bikes. I can't really argue this one. I'd like to say they had that base covered with Buell, and were going to further their presence in this market with the purchase of MV, but, well, they truly have abandoned both. I suppose it could be argued that the V-Rod line is composed of high-performance motorcycles, but, no, they're not sportbikes. Harley has a pretty poor track record when it comes to straying too far from their "core" motorcycles. I'll grant you that they're not making high-performance sportbikes, but it's not like they've HAD to. ...the '09 Street Glide...was so impressive that I put it atop my "next bike to purchase" list. High praise. I'm very happy with my '06 motor, and I probably should NOT take a new model out for a test ride... But not a sporting model in sight. What a shame. Depends on your point of view, I suppose, but mostly agree. They killed Buell through both really idiotic heavy-handed oppression... Meaning? ...and downright vindictive intent. Examples? Proof? Then they lied about not being able to sell Buell, giving a very lame excuse, ludicrous excuse. This being their unwillingness to allow a buyer "access" to their dealerships? I can say for sure that miserable corporate politics, flippant short-sighted corporate management, overbearing oppression, and just plain lack of honesty concerning the development and growth of Buell did a great job of killing what would otherwise have been a very smart and successful corporation. How can you say these things "for sure"? They are very good cruisers and touring bikes. They are very, very poor sport bikes. Agree, and agree. Image is important and worth exploiting and profiting upon. But it should never become the core of the business if you expect your products to remain market leaders. I would argue that Harley's image is not now and never has been (at least since their AMF buyout) the "core" of their business. I have H-D brochures in my collection dating back to the 70's. They marketed their image heavily back then, too, but nobody was buying their bikes because they were crap. Since then Harley has sold a ton of motorcycles because they're NOT crap, and because they've also worked their marketing to perfection. Harley's current financial duress is NOT a result of building bad motorcycles, or "over-working" their image. Times are tough for everyone (except, perhaps, TV talking heads). The decision to once again abandon the sport bike market is a huge gamble that I believe will prove extremely foolish and short-sighted. You very well could be right. Buell won a national championship and was poised to sweep the sport bike market with a balls to the wall superbike, something that HDI prohibited Buell from doing for over a decade. Imagine if the 1125 platform had hit the market when the VRod first appeared. "Sweep"? Strong word, amigo. "Prohibit"? Also strong. HDI has chosen to once again abandon that market, instead they are focusing on the cruiser and touring bike market in India. Huh? I'm not trying to defend Mr. Wandell, but I suspect he was tasked with pruning Harley-Davidson down to the bone to help insure the company's survival. To that end, he's made some decisive moves. Unpopular? Without question. Correct? Only time will tell. But you're still a wimp and a girly-man for wanting to get along and behave like a gentleman. Yeah, I know, it's not the BadWeB way. Must be the latent liberal in me... ...when image overshadows incredible new products poised to grab huge share of the sport bike market, well, that is idiotic. The image wasn't going anywhere. Harley made some tough decisions. Whether or not killing Buell was totally based on sound business principals or a grudge against Erik, I don't have the necessary information to make that call either way. I'd LOVE to hear the rest of the story... And again, the loss of focus was more by the greed-heads in H-D Financial, thinking about how much money they were going to make giving out loans at high interest for 72 month terms. What you call greed could also be called plain and simple capitalism, working the "system" for all it was worth. Mr. Anderson makes a pretty good argument in his article for doing exactly what HDF was doing. Yep, the collapse of the economy has got them in a bind, just like so many other sectors of the economy, but neither Mr. Anderson or you have made a compelling case that HDF was "too" greedy. What the heck is "too" greedy in a system based on free enterprise, anyway??? Oops, the economy send too many of those into default and the bikes weren't worth what was owed on the loans. Same upside-down problem that about wiped out the greed-heads in the mortgage industry. Hindsight's always crystal clear. I suspect if you were in upper management at HDF for the past decade, you'd have made similar decisions on how "aggressive" to be. No? The greed-heads ran up some half a billion in losses due to bad loans and the result is Buell is killed off? It would appear that Buell was indeed one of the casualties. I don't like it, either. Yet H-D Finance is still intact, the horrendous losses and HDI propped up by high interest loan by Warren Buffet? WTF? Well, the fact that they're borrowing money at 15% is worrisome, but killing off HDF wouldn't solve anything, would it? Four years ago, maybe. Not now. Duh. The corporation and the way Buell was mismanaged literally makes me sick to my stomach. Really? I hadn't noticed. Having marketed, sold, and managed a number of multi-million dollar programs, and been highly successful doing so, meaning earned millions of dollars of profit for my employer, I think I have a pretty good feel for what constitutes sound management. Blake, I know you're way smarter at all this business stuff than I am (heck, I'm not even a construction worker...), but you do NOT know all the reasons why H-D killed Buell. Or do you? As a Buell enthusiast I am very biased on the whole demise of BMC perpetrated by HDI, but I'm going on the facts and reliable information from those who suffered at the hands of overbearing, vindictive and jealous players inside the corporate politics of HDI. I can only go on what I've read. Your words, Mr. Anderson's words, don't provide proof, IMO. Strong opinions, for sure, and you've both got access to sources that most of us don't, but I've yet to read the proof in your words. Speaking of which: If H-D DID kill off Buell for vindictive reasons, it begs the question WHY??? FB | ||
| Steveford |
Blake, Was that really the case? "What would you say if you learned that at one point almost half of the H-D manufactured engines received by Buell failed initial quality inspection and had to be returned to H-D?" That might explain all of the metal shavings left in my X1's oil passageways... What I found really odd was that the Buell employees were not allowed to touch the production line motors (aside from bolting on the oil pump) unless the engines had been purchased from Harley. If there was anything amiss with the engine, they had to have someone from Harley come out. This information came from a Buell employee who was in an XB tech class in Milwaukee with me back around 2004. That was during the XB days, perhaps things changed with Rotax. (Message edited by SteveFord on April 27, 2010) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
"I'm very suspicious that union involvement was also a factor." Boy Blake. You really have dropped off the deep end. Unions are outdated and useless according to you. You really think they have that much pull? To shut BUELL down because they rejected the Union? Wow. If that's what you're implying, PLEASE show us the proof. Don't spread your hatred of organized labor to try and spin some kind of half assed conspiracy theory pertaining to the demise of BUELL. Sabotaged engines? Get •••••••• real. My theory is H-D was worried about the bottom line, like all of corporate America, which you have put on a pedestal time and time again. They killed off BUELL and it's workers, like MANY American manufacturing companies have over the last couple decades. But being that it was your favorite motorcycle company, NOW it's a travesty. Put the blame where it belongs. The H-D Board of Directors and it's CEO. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Been around a few years and there seems to be no gentlemanly way to disagree when it comes to motorcycle brands and the loyalty of their owners. JB2, it's EASY to have a mature, gentlemanly disagreement about ANY subject - it just takes mature gentleman doing the disagreeing, is all. I've owned 5 Harleys too and vowed to NEVER own another. What's the year and model of the newest Harley you've owned? Well, one exception, and Ferris knows which bike it is but he's never convinced the owner to sell it to me... so no more Harleys in my future. Arlen won't return my calls...  On one side, I know many HD riders personally, all are riders first and Harley owners second. Having said that, I still can't get over the HD snobbery of the area I live in. It reminds of the attitude and simple-mindedness that closed Buell. Buell may very well have been closed for entirely sound business reasons. I won't deny that Harley snobbery exists, anymore than I'll deny that Buell snobbery, or sportbike snobbery, or BMW snobbery, etc., etc. exists. Snobbery is snobbery, and there's no need for it. Most of the riders I meet, regardless of brand of bike, are cool with the "it's all good" mentality. I know that's not always the case, but it's how it oughta be, and I see enough of the "good" side of our sport to not give up hope. Don't know all the facts and I don't care but HD is at the very bottom of my want list(except for that one bike). Yeah, but this was your stance on Harley long before they killed Buell. I would have never made a good pirate anyway! Disagree - I think it's still in there somewhere. FB | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
BTW, this is NOT the way to have a mature, gentlemanly argument: Get ••••••• real. Just sayin.' | ||
| Road_thing |
Jerry wrote: I'm very happy with my '06 motor, and I probably should NOT take a new model out for a test ride... I could have made the same statement, only substitute '96 for '06. rt | ||
| Spdrxb |
I am exhausted after reading this thread.  |
