G oog le BadWeB | Login/out | Topics | Search | Custodians | Register | Edit Profile


Buell Forum » Quick Board » Archives » Archive through March 11, 2010 » Never ridden dirt bikes - 250 2stroke too big? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pkforbes87
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I've been interested in getting into dirt riding for a while now, and found a good deal locally on a 95 ktm 250 2 stroke.

I've been riding on the street since april 2007, about 30,000 miles since then. I feel comfortable on the street but with no dirt experience, don't wanna get something I can't handle. I know buells are torquey so I'm used to that, but am guessing that it doesn't even compare to the quick torquey throttle response of a dirt bike.

Any input?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Natexlh1000
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 06:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

For a first dirtbike, I would suggest a 250cc four stroke.
Less likely to kill you.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dalton_gang
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 07:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Nate is right! I have a feeling that a 250 2 stroke is going to be kinda insane for you and you won't like it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bosh
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 07:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I'd say go ahead and get it. You will get used to the power delivery pretty fast and
if you keep them off the pipe two strokes are fairly tame.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Slaughter
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 07:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

It's not the displacement but the POWER DELIVERY in a 2-stroke. It is much more peakey than a 4-stroke and harder to manage as a result.

If you are looking for a good price on a USABLE dirt bike, the Suzuki DRZ400S has been around quite a while, can be street-registered and has a TON of aftermarket stuff available for it.

I shopped around a bit before picking up the DRZ. I don't race or pretend to race in the dirt but I live in the desert and it's a great dual-sport bike. Perfect dirt-road machine, occasional 1-lane bike trail - and I have actually taken it on the freeway once in a while for a couple miles.

Surf around Adventure Rider and you can find out a lot about various bikes:

http://www.advrider.com
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Natexlh1000
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I would err on the side of caution.
You can have a really good time on a 230cc thumper : )
You can always sell it if you get bored.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Boney95
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My first bike was a 125. I had it for about two months, sold it and bought a 250. The 125 was just way too under powered for my liking. Save yourself some time and money and get the 250. Hell screw the 250, get a 450F if you want some major power. Look around, I can get an 09 YZ450F for $5,300 out the door.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Etennuly
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

A four stroke will be your friend unless your intention is to do ariel stunts out of the box.

The road riding is kind of like hunting with a shot gun, well ok, you have a couple of rifles also. Now you want a pistol to shoot. Do you want first to be a 3.57 magnum with a hair trigger?

Depending on your weight and size I would recommend a 250 to a 400 range four stroker. And get a book on how to be a better dirt/trials/trail rider so that you can learn how to fall without getting hurt. If you can do trials riding most any other dirt stuff will come naturally to you.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Akbuell
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

If you like the bike and the price is good, buy it. Without knowing how much you weigh, and what kind of dirt riding you intend to do, it is really hard to advise one way or the other.

Short version, a 2 stroke MX-style bike will have good power, in a relatively narrow RPM band. An enduro-style bike will have less power, but in a wider RPM range. Each will have transmission ratios/spreads to match their intended use.

In any case, enjoy! And the dirt experience will help your road skills. Did in my case, anyway.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bob_thompson
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I agree with what Slaughter and Akbuell said and will add; usually the 2 stroke bikes (enduro types) that can be licensed for the street are not as highly tuned for all out power and have a heavier flywheel making them somewhat more tractable and predictable at lower speeds. A real plus but still not quite as tame as a four stroke. They will also be geared a little higher to allow for highway speeds. I like to gear them down if I am only going to use them in the dirt. I really like some of the new lighter 4 stroke singles but boy are they expensive. Bob
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Reepicheep
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I have a KDX-200 now (two stroke that is a 4 stroke at heart). I'd actually recommend that over the KTM, and know somebody in Ohio with a decent one for sale ($1600 for a nicely sorted KDX-220 that I personally helped rebuild and clean up). He wants a KTM 500 something two stroke... he's like that. ; )

But anyway, for modern two strokes with some kind of power valve (Kawasaki calls it KIPS on the KDX, I think all the makers have them now), I think the "power hit" or "bad for new riders" is no longer true, especially if the bike has (or gets) a "woods pipe" and good reed valves.

My KDX-200 (water cooled 2 stroke) makes slightly more power down low then my KLR-250 (water cooled 4 stroke), but easily makes 2x the power up top. So the KDX has tons of power and is a wheelie machine for sure, but only at wide open throttle and high RPM's. If you don't want big power, just turn the throttle less, and shift sooner. Or just jet it rich.

But don't fool yourself... on a long muddy hill climb, when the entire bike is caked with 50 pounds of sticky Ohio clay, 30 pounds of which is packed in spinning tires and up under the rear swingarm, you want big power if you can get it, and it's nice to be able to get it without fanning the clutch the whole way. There were times on the KLR-250 that the bike couldn't even maintain speed in 2nd gear with all the mud everywhere. Sand is probably the same, but we don't get much around here.

Maintenance on the two stroke is also a day and night difference. I can rebuild the entire top end of my KDX for $150 or so including gaskets, and if I start at 9 am, I'll be riding before lunch. Not so much with a four stroke...

Two strokes are SO light, and light bikes are SO much easier to ride in the woods, for both beginners and experts.

The down sides I have observed with my two stroke are:

1) Fuel economy (which for dirt, is more of a problem with fuel range). I could ride that KLR-250 all day long on a tank of gas, it was probably pulling 40 to 50 MPG. The KDX is more likely to get 20 to 30 MPG. So you need to be able to get to gas every 3-4 hours of riding. Generally not a problem, but something to plan around.

2) Tuning. The two strokes seem a lot more sensitive to jetting (IMHO). So you will have to work through that (or pay somebody else to work through it) when you start meddling in things like new exhausts (which you probably want, as they can dramatically tune the bike to the problem you want to solve, like good low RPM power for woods riding). Jets are cheap, but it's a steep learning curve, and getting the jetting spot on transforms the bike.

3) "Many miles" durability... I'd guess most 4 stroke thumpers that aren't dedicated race bikes can probably go 10k to 20k before rebuilds. I suspect a 2 stroke is more like 5000. That being said, you can probably do five two stroke rebuilds with the same money and a lot less time then one four stroke rebuild. The real lesson here is that there isn't a good dirt bikes that are also good street bikes, there are dirt bikes that can run on the street at a price, and street bikes that can run on the dirt at a price, and the price is such that you are almost always better off with two bikes.

I'd be nervous dropping my wife on a 200 or 250 two stroke, but not anyone with decent street experience. Your Buell is making probably 2x the HP at any given rev range that the KTM will make, and it didn't somehow sneak up and kill you (yet ; )). Just don't be stupid.

So I would *definitely* recommend a 250 two stroke as a first dirt bike for an experienced street rider. It's more then you will ever need, so you won't have to ride for a season then upgrade. If it's an MX oriented two stroke rather then an enduro / woods oriented two stroke, budget in another $500 to $1000 for converting it to a woods friendly bike (gearing, bark busters, exhaust, jetting, etc). Or just buy a KDX. : )
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Brother_in_buells
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I say buy it!
It,s fun ,and the neighbors gonna love it!
I have a 125cc ktm and it,s


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Delta_one
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I don't think a 250 2stroke it too much after 30,000 miles but pick your terrain carefully and keep it in the lower RPM range until you are used to the dirt. also make sure it has mew tires on it. the height of the nub does not determine the wear but how sharp the edges are.

I started on a 100 or 125cc (it was a long time ago) 2stroke at 7, it was my brothers bike and at the urgings of my dad I learned to ride it. I had always wanted to ride it but after my first crash I was afraid my brother would kick my butt for it. I was on a 250 by 10 and looking at a 400 when I was 13.
I didn't notice how peaky a 2 stroke could be until I test rode a piped 400. when it came into the power it jumped so hard it shot a 4 foot roost and threw the front tire into the air. I never did buy the 400 because it scared the bejesus out of me.

lesson of the story pipes make a 2 stroke crazy! a stock 250 can be contained for an adult beginner I was probably 100lbs riding one but I also had 3-4 years on dirt trails before I did so.

If I were to go back I would go with a 4stroke just for the linear power curve and more torque out of the hole. I don't want to have to ring the bikes neck just to get power out of it.

so stock 250 for now and pipe it when you want more.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Skntpig
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 02:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

125 2 stroke or 250 4 stroke. Plenty of power.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Strokizator
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I say buy it. I had a 2002 KX250 that I put a heavy flywheel weight on. It only took a few minutes and it smoothed out the power immensely. 2 strokes are insanely easy to work on and cheap to maintain.

DRZ's and the like are heavy and not as well suspended but they are street legal if that's important.

BTW, now that I'm much older I ride a KLX250S and don't do the foolish stuff I used to. But I loved that KX and miss it to this day.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fast1075
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

How to ride a 250 two smoke bike: A. go where there is dirt with no trees or other serious obstructions. B. Put on all manne r of safety gear and padding. C. Crank engine, blip throttle a lot to keep from loading it up. D. Point bike in desired direction...put in first gear. E. Scoot as far forward as possible...rev engine to at least 6,000 rpm, dump clutch...row gear shifter frantically. F. Hit a hole and fall in a huge cloud of dirt and dust...fall MUST either tear the seat off or completely trash the handlebars. G. Seek medical attention for all the abrasions, contusions, and bruises. H. Find a cutie that digs scars to show off your new body art while you work on fixing the bike. I. Repeat until you actually learn to ride, or at least lose the fear of crashing.

Disclaimer: The above is completely tounge in cheek and by no means should be considered an actual tutorial on how to ride a dirt bike..it is based on my own personal experience and therefore should not be attempted. ; )
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Cityxslicker
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

wing a ding ding. I dont know that I would go two stroke for your first dirty ride, unless you started on dirt before.... that throttle control and powerband will find you off of the bike, more than on it. I see it every weekend.
get something mellow and less touchy
the yami 225 or honda 230 VERY forgiving, and easy to pick up..... DAMHIK
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

86129squids
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 04:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

GAWD I love the smell of burnt Yamalube in the morning...

Good advice, all- the main thing to me would be staying mindful of how much of a power hit that KTM is capable of, specially if its been tuned. Ride conservatively, and grow into it.

Or get a well outfitted DP bike and go anywhere.

Once owned a Yamaha RZ350, bored .40 over, with Spec II pipes, Boyesen reeds, 1 tooth shorter front sprocket, etc.... YPVS worked fine... never had anything since that could bend space/time as quick... : ) I miss that thing.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fast1075
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Back in the day...when i worked at the local Honda dealer, I maintained and tuned 5 sponsored motocross bikes...3 cr125's and 2 cr500's...there is nothing more evil and wicked than a cr500 tuned within an inch of it's life...terrifying fast.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Reepicheep
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Here is a dyno plot from a KDX-200 versus a KTM 200...



Power builds fairly linearly over a 4000 RPM range, not unlike a Buell, but then peaks and trails back down over the next 4000 RPM.

I use that for hill climbs... wind it out before you hit, as you loose speed you gain power (for a while anyway). Better then the 4 stroke, which once the "hill climb power death spiral" began, was a one way ticket.

The KTM has an even nicer wider powerband then my KDX, which is already pretty nice.

A buddy of mine just bought a KDX-200 as a "first dirt bike", and his only problem with it was that the carb was jetted all wrong, so you hit the throttle, the bike would bog, then it would explode all at once. A very scary ride. But I tuned that all out with proper jetting, and the thing is this wonderful controllable "dial a wheelie" machine right now... every bit as controllable as my neighbors CRF 450.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Americanmadexb
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I say buy it and ride it. You will figure it out.

I'm sure everyone told you a X1 was too much for a beginner too.. Look where that got ya!!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ducxl
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Buy it.I got tossed a few times from an '88 KX250 i bought new.AWESOME power!!! NOT to be missed.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ourdee
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I started on a Bennelli Panther 125 cc 2 smoke. The 250 should be about right.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Buellfighter
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Pk, get the bike and have some fun. Use common sense and you'll be fine.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fatboy_grim
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 09:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

It all depends on what you are gunna ride?
Track? Trails?

It's funny cause I went from dirt to street last summer. I had a cr250. My bike had a lot of power but it also had a lot of mods. I didn't like my bike on the track cause it had too much power. It was hard to control it at times. But if your going to ride trails, farms, doing hill climes or whatever... I think you'll be just fine with a 250. the guy that bought my bike was new at riding and he broke his back on my bike the first week he had it. if you have been riding for years, i'd go with a 250 2stroke for sure!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Danger_dave
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2010 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

2-strokes are great for competition and racing and generally thrashing.

4-strokes give a more compliant and an easier ride.

Depends on your goals.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pkforbes87
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 12:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Whatever I get will be used off-road only so doesn't need to be street legal.

At this point, a two-stroke sounds great. I want power that will show itself via a swift kick in the pants.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Iman501
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 12:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

my buddy had a 2 stroke, and it was the first type of two wheeled bike w/ a motor i had ever ridden, with no experience! i knew how to ride by theory, just not ever had the chance to try it.....untill that day....lets just say that ride lasted about 15 feet!....i didnt crash or drop it, i just flew fowarward and stopped and decided it was to much, and i should probably stick with his fourwheeler and go learn how to ride at the MFS firt

but with your experience i'd say you should be alright
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Firebolt020283
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 01:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The cool thing about two strokes now that the 450 came out is that you can get them dirt cheap. I was looking on ebay a while back and noticed that you can get a cr250 for peanuts now because everyone wants 450s.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Reepicheep
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Make sure you don't confuse the motor tune with the motor technology.

A KDX-200 (enduro tuning) isn't a KX-250 or a CR-250 (MX tuned).

Just like a KLR-650 (street tuned) isn't a CRF-450R (race tuned).

Even the CRF-450X, which is supposedly the more moderately tuned version of the Honda 450, is still a really edgy and stressed out racing machine.

My ported and tuned (for enduro) KDX-200 would be a MUCH better bike to hand to a new dirt rider (but experienced street rider) then the CRF-450X for sure. I suspect the CRF would be better then a KX-250, but haven't ridden on to be sure.

Some of the KTM's are enduro tuned, some are wound up race bikes. I'd look at the target for the bikes tune before I looked if it was a 4 stroke or 2 stroke... and for that matter, I would look at the target tune before I would look at displacement.
« Previous Next »

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and custodians may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Post as "Anonymous" (Valid reason required. Abusers will be exposed. If unsure, ask.)
Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Rules | Program Credits Administration