| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Conspiracy or not there could be a conflict of interest. There is no 'could be' about it. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Common Toyota Electronic Systems: ETCS-i Electronic Throttle Control System with Intelligence EPS Electronic Power Steering ECB Electronically Controlled Braking ECT-i Electronically Controlled Automatic Transmission with Intelligence EBD Electronic Brake-force Distribution ... and there's more, see here: http://www.toyota.com/help/glossary.html#e | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"A year ago the government didn't own any of Toyota's competitors." That's the whole gist of my post. Just seemed odd that this has blown up so big,so fast. Not hate'n on Toyota,I'm brand inert on this one. What are they slipping under the radar on us while this is going on? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The Federal Government is no longer an "honest broker" in the dealings with Toyota. Were the Federal Government the judge on the case, it would have to recuse itself because of a conflict of interest. There have been a grand total of 19 deaths over the last 10 years attributable to uncontrolled acceleration issues. There were over 300 deaths caused by Ford Explorer rollover accidents attributable to Firestone Tires over 10 years. 65 people died in fiery crashes due to Chevrolet's mounting of fuel tanks outside the protection of the C/K frame. This is grand standing of the worst kind. I'm surprised they haven't started showing pictures of "Japs" with little black glasses.   | ||
| Blake |
Seemed like a huge conflict of interest and a typical congress on TV grandstanding show. Rocco, Got any evidence of the stuff you are charging? Sounds like propaganda to me. Why do you fly off the handle like this? | ||
| Cravacor |
The Japanese Government has a far greater share in Toyota than the US Government has in GM. The assertion here is that the US Government is wantonly persecuting Toyota so it can do what? Sell more GMs so it can use the profits to buy caviar & blow? Puuuhleeese. Look out for the black helicopters & get your tin foil hats on folks! The government is far too inept to pull off such a hoodwink without a single person blowing the whistle. They are just having show trials because that is what they do, pander to the public which is whipped into a frenzy by the sensationalist press. None of this changes the fact that there are flaws in the Toyota ECM programming. Floor mats, my a$$!  | ||
| Cowboy |
How could American cars fail they are UNION made??? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The Japanese Government has a far greater share in Toyota than the US Government has in GM. The assertion here is that the US Government is wantonly persecuting Toyota so it can do what? Sell more GMs so it can use the profits to buy caviar & blow? Puuuhleeese. Look out for the black helicopters & get your tin foil hats on folks! The government is far too inept to pull off such a hoodwink without a single person blowing the whistle. They are just having show trials because that is what they do, pander to the public which is whipped into a frenzy by the sensationalist press. None of this changes the fact that there are flaws in the Toyota ECM programming. Floor mats, my a$$! If you're a Senator or Representative lagging in the polls hoping that grandstanding will energize the pro-union contingent in your voting district, you've got nothing to lose. Get the picture. The Japanese government may have a larger ownership than 60% (doubtful), but they are not acting as impartial arbiter. The primary aim may not be to help bolster GM sales, but the secondary goal definitely is. This is what happens when the government becomes a competitive player in the private sector. There are problems Toyota is addressing. "may be the most serious safety issue that we have faced here at DOT” (LaHood) Hardly. | ||
| Ourdee |
Latest hypothetical cause I've heard is that cell phones are interfering with the computer. I read that in a newspaper last night. | ||
| Sifo |
The Japanese Government has a far greater share in Toyota than the US Government has in GM. The assertion here is that the US Government is wantonly persecuting Toyota so it can do what? Sell more GMs so it can use the profits to buy caviar & blow? Puuuhleeese. Look out for the black helicopters & get your tin foil hats on folks! The government is far too inept to pull off such a hoodwink without a single person blowing the whistle. They are just having show trials because that is what they do, pander to the public which is whipped into a frenzy by the sensationalist press. None of this changes the fact that there are flaws in the Toyota ECM programming. Floor mats, my a$$! It would be a great feather in BO's cap if GM rebounded quickly. Government stepped in to prevent bankruptcy. Since then GM has gone through bankruptcy, had it's CEO replace by the government and is still doing poorly. Just this week we find out the new hand picked CEO will be getting a 9 million dollar bonus but because he's clueless they have hired the old CEO back as a consultant at $3,000 per hour. The government takeover of GM has been an absolute disaster on all counts. I do think they would do anything they can to turn it around, not so they can be eating caviar, but so they can be able to point to it as them being right, instead of having the opposition being able to point to the unprecedented failure in the upcoming election year. As was pointed out the government didn't step in like this when many more people were getting killed by Fords with bad tires and this was a case where you had clear physical evidence of the problem after the crashes happened. In this case all we have are the stories from non-experts, some of which don't make any sense at all. Of course we all know that no one has ever been driving too damn fast then blamed something else when they finally crash. | ||
| Sifo |
Latest hypothetical cause I've heard is that cell phones are interfering with the computer. I read that in a newspaper last night. I heard that one last week on our local news. It supposedly caused the steering to swerve the vehicle into the wrong lane when cell phones were being used. No, I didn't make that up! I see this happen all the time with all makes and models when cell phones are in use. | ||
| Etennuly |
Living in proximity to McDill AFB in the eighties and nineties when the then new F16 fighter aircraft with it's fly by wire first came out, was interesting. Frequently there were local news stories about them loosing control and crashing into the Gulf of Mexico with the pilot ejecting. The pilot's stories sounded like those we are hearing about from these car owners. Things like "it just took off on it's own". They finally found that the F16 was 'porpusing', an uncontrollable up and down motion that the pilot could not correct because the on board computers were countermanding his inputs making the situation worse. It was an interesting story to follow for a year or so, you know, since they were flying overhead all of the time.  | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Let me see.............. A simple throttle cable...... A gas pedal,potentiometer,wires,computer, sensors and a throttle stepper motor....... Makes no sense to me to even have the damned thing on a car........ | ||
| Etennuly |
But "We" the consumer.....somehow told them that is what we want in the products that we buy. Somehow I feel it is an engineering department command due to the cost of the computer geek "look what I can do" game. No offense to my engineer friends! | ||
| Sifo |
Etennuly, I understand what you are saying but comparing the flight controls of an F-16 and the throttle control on a Toyota is just opposite ends of the spectrum. The porpoising you describe is normal in all aircraft. The less stable you make the aircraft the more pronounced. An F-16 is fairly unstable and needs a well tuned computerized flight control system to translate the pilots desires into complex control movements. They had similar issues when testing the YF-22 also. The throttle on the Toyota OTOH is basically do you want a lot of power or just a little. I was thinking about this while I was away today and the fact that the Prius is mixed in with other non-hybrid models really has me wondering. The software for the Prius would by necessity be very different from non-hybrid models. I can certainly see a software bug that would cause the problem that Froggy describes, possibly even some of what was described to congress, but in a conventional car that doesn't have regenerative braking there is no need to have the engine management and braking systems linked in such a manner. In fact linking them that way produces the possibility for safety issues that are easily avoided by keeping the systems separate. If Toyota actually did this the really must be stuck on stupid, and I have my doubts about that. | ||
| Etennuly |
I have heard fairly often the phrase "I want a car that drives itself". I believe the aim is to satisfy that need with the future cars of the Jetsons cartoons. Sifo, Yes, I certainly agree that the throttle needs to computer controlled in a hy-bred that incorporates different power modules and is actually a speed regulator brake. I guess we did ask for cleaner more efficient cars, or was it political folks telling the media to tell us that is what we said, based on what we told them, that they needed to obtain for us?  | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Proof of what? A lot here seem very anti American to me. Jump to point out the perceived inadequacies of manufacturing of products made here (minus Buells). Point fingers at the Government for what? Questioning the problems and cover ups of vehicles that should have been recalled years ago? Why? Because it was made by the Japanese and they are infallible? Bullshit. They made a product that's a piece of shit, and is dangerous. Why are you all so quick to blame the Government for their actions? Oh, that's right. It's the whole Democrat thing. When does the safety of a product blur party lines? Obviously never for most of you. | ||
| Bads1 |
I'll show you a piece of Shit..... my Dodge durango. Wire harness recall that could and has been a fire hazard. I got no notice. Fuel tank that would not let put gas in it that would result in gas being thrown all over you. Yeah a recall..... I got no notice. I've had 5 toyotas. I had zero problems. They have had more awards with Camry's and COrolla's then most or all other makers. I'll buy another. I said it once and I'll say it again. All my past trucks and cars were purchased new. This Dodge has been in the shop more in its two years then all my Toyotas put together. | ||
| Sifo |
Who has said anything anti-American? There has been pointing out a discrepancy of how the government has reacted to past problems vs. now. I don't see where what you say meshes with the discussion so far. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There is not question that there are product problems that need to be corrected. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. My bitch is with the complete over reaction. They are more than happy to mug in front of the camera to feed those already more than happy to lap up American companies and bash Japanese companies. How long did it take Ford to fix the Exploder? How long did it take Ford to fix the cruise control fire problem? But Toyota are the heartless savage bastards? Whatever. | ||
| Paw |
Staight and to the point....Toyota is the biggest auto maker in the world...Once a company hits that its all down hill from there...Just look at GM...JC Penny was the biggest retailer at one time. Not to mention Toyota is junk just like the rest of the Jap crap!!! | ||
| Sifo |
This has all the earmarks of a company under pressure to do ANYTHING to fix a problem that is being reported where you can't get reliable data on exactly what the problem is. I've been in that sort of situation in software development when users swear up and down that there's a bug in the system, but you can't reproduce the problem with anything you try based on the users description of the problem. It's surprising how many times you wind up finding out that the user is simply doing something wrong, usually ignoring messages being displayed explaining what is going on. In the Toyota issue there may be a real problem, but if you can't reproduce it you are just in the dark about what to do to fix it. So you try replacing floor mats. You replace gas pedals. I get the feeling Toyota is making an honest but uninformed effort at fixing a problem that isn't well defined. For the record, I have never owned a Toyota, the only foreign cars I've ever owned were Volkswagens (2), and I don't ever see myself owning a Toyota. I have no reason to defend Toyota at all, but I also can't demonize them unfairly. | ||
| Dentguy |
I agree with Ft_bstrd's comments. Also, Ford's cruise control recall covered 9.3 million if I remember correctly. By the way, I don't think the pedals are being replaced (just to be clear). I was at a Toyota dealer on Monday (friends with parts managers) and the was told the recall is a spacer in the pedal and a reflash. Was told the spacer costs $.53 or $.56 (can't remember which), but it does pay the tech 2.0 hrs. | ||
| Sifo |
Dentguy, I think you may be referring to their 'stop gap' adjustment until replacement pedals are available.
I also verified what Froggy said about having to hold the Start/Stop button to shut it off. The info I found said 3 seconds, not the 5 Froggy quoted, but essentially correct. Toyota said this is to prevent shutting it off by bumping the button accidentally. Makes sense to me. So would a person in a panic situation of uncontrolled acceleration really not be able to shut if off? I think it would become very natural after a week or two of owning that car. In a rental/borrowed car it might be very different. I think you would be just as likely to turn a key the wrong direction trying to shut a car off. At least 2 cases took the time to make phone calls for crying out loud. There seems to be a lot of user error involved even assuming there is a real problem across all of the listed models. I don't see the need for congress to get involved in a case where removing floor mats works for a temporary fix. Anyone remember the Firestone tires in the 70's that would get bulges in the sidewall and eventually blow out? I had a set where 3 of 4 did that. Mine happened to be outside of the manufacture dates that Firestone was replacing though. Did congress get involved in that? Hell no! | ||
| Dentguy |
Thanks Sifo. I didn't know there was a recall before the recall or whatever we should call it. I was just going off of what I was told on Monday and don't know all the details.  As for the start stop button. I can't speak from experience at speed, but I know for a fact that my wife's Highlander will shut down without delay (when running in gear sitting still) by just a quick push of the button. Tried it last night. I can understand having a delay at speed in case of an accidental push of the button, but it's still faster than most people can make a call on a cell phone. | ||
| Sifo |
I think I did read that the delay was only when in gear or at speed or something of the sort. I haven't had experience with anything but keys or a stubby screw driver in one case. | ||
| Dennis_c |
If you don't like american cars  then move to Japan and stay there we don't need you here.  | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
I'll drive ever what the fuQu I want to drive. No union or government will make my choice for me. | ||
| Cravacor |
Quality ratings are a very subjective thing. If you buy a Lexus or Porsche for $80k are you really going to complain about the quality? I doubt it, you would make yourself look like a fool for spending all that money on a car. If you are an old fart and buy a Mercury or a Buick you are not as likely to complain about the things owners of identical Fords or Chevys are likely to complain about. It is well documented, however, that Ford quality has been increasing for years, while Toyota's has been decreasing for years. I have a Ford, a Jeep, a Nissan and a Honda.The Nissan and Honda are old beaters. Back when I had no coin I went with those, because if I was going to buy a 15+ year old car for less than $2k, I knew those actually built in Japan back in the early 90's were quite reliable mechanically, which is all that matters when buying a beater. It is important also to note that reliability & quality are two different things. Does my Honda rattle & leak water? Yes. Do I know it will start every time? Absolutely. As for my newer Ford & Jeep, I have been quite satisfied with both of them. The only honest way to measure quality is to look at warranty claims, which, of course, is proprietary info, so unless you can access that info there truly is no way to settle the great quality debate. So, SOTP experience is really all we have. There really is no way to point to some metric and say "Aha, Cadillac has the best quality because JD Power says so..." Being an American born and raised in Detroit and fed, clothed, educated by income from Ford Motor Company it really is sad to see all of these Americans rallying around the Rising Sun, Buell owners, none-the-less. I am proud to "Be American, Buy American". Remember people, the Big Three were called "The Arsenal of Democracy" for a reason. What do you think Mitsubishi and Daimler were building during World War II? Do you really think that if there were another situation where our industry had to be redirected to building weaponry that Nissan & Toyota plants here in the US would be churning out tanks & bombers? | ||
| Cravacor |
Firestone tire failures on Explorers: Due to under inflation/overheating. The failed part was the tire, not the vehicle itself. Firestone: a brand owned by... Bridgestone a, you guessed it,  company that endlessly squeezes the balls of their union workers in the US. |
