| Author | Message | ||
     Just_ziptab |
Me thinks GM (Gov'ment Motors) has a lot to do with it. More sales thru collusion? | ||
| Sifo |
I keep thinking the same thing. I saw one of the people that testified in congress claiming that here car started accelerating uncontrollably. She claims she tried the brake and that didn't work. Claims the tried neutral and that didn't work. Claims she tried putting it in reverse and that didn't work. Claims she tried the parking brake and that didn't work. Claims she was going over 100 mph standing on the brakes, in reverse with the parking brake on. I have my doubts. She did claim to have the presence of mind to call her husband on the phone, apparently that worked. Supposedly the car suddenly just stopped misbehaving on it's own. | ||
| Froggy |
Toyota's slipping quality over the years, including recalling almost 9 million vehicles in 2007 have nothing to do with it? They have been dropping like a rock with the quality, even Consumer Reports took the Camry and Tundra off their recommended lists. Also don't forget the recalls in Europe, and how Toyota got a bailout in Japan too. | ||
| Froggy |
Sifo, all the modern cars have electronic transmissions, you could easily put the lever in reverse, and nothing would happen, computer would overrule it. If she had the keyless ignition too, you can't just press the button and have the car shut down either. I experienced unintended acceleration once in a 2007 Prius that my previous job had me use. It was a one time thing, and ended up being a bug in the cruise control software. (Message edited by froggy on February 24, 2010) | ||
| Sifo |
Why would the computer override putting it into neutral? That was the first thing she said she did after the brakes failed to check the acceleration. I just find it hard to believe that she would be topping 100 mph with the brakes and emergency brake on. So if you can't just shut the engine off with the keyless ignition, how do you shut them down. That seems like a potential safety issue. | ||
| Sifo |
Did the acceleration stop in the Prius when you hit the brakes? I had a vehicle that did that to me on cruise control a couple of times. When you resumed cruise after pausing it it would just accelerate right past the speed it was set at. Tap the brakes and the cruise turned right off. | ||
| Gbackus |
when you're car is driven by so many drive by wire systems(drive by wire throttle, drive by wire brakes, ecm controlled transmissions, and soon to be steer by wire systems) that when a fault in the code is encountered, there is nothing you cna do because you are physically disconnected(remember "drive by wire") from most of the systems in the vehicle | ||
| Teeps |
You think this will stop with Toyota? Before it's over all things automotive will be affected. | ||
| Froggy |
About neutral, not sure what car she was driving, on the Prius, you have a joystick for a shifter. You can move it to neutral, but its merely a suggestion. Sometimes it will just beep at you instead of going into N. Also, the parking brake on that thing is worthless, if the car didn't chime, you wouldn't know it was on. The cruise control - the issue was that I stepped on the brake, and the Prius decided that instead of disengaging cruise control it would accelerate to compensate for the lost speed. I had it only happen once to me so I never thought anything further about it. This is fixed by one of the more recent recalls, its just an ECM reflash as far as I can tell. About shutting them down - From what I have read online (never got a chance to try it) that you have to hold the power button for 5-10 seconds like a computer. In a panic situation, the average person would play morris code with the button rather than hold it. | ||
| Gbackus |
teeps, you are right on, but i'm hoping the rest of the manufacturers get their heads out of their ass and start testing their code, which is the root of toyotas problems | ||
| Sifo |
when you're car is driven by so many drive by wire systems(drive by wire throttle, drive by wire brakes, ecm controlled transmissions, and soon to be steer by wire systems) that when a fault in the code is encountered, there is nothing you cna do because you are physically disconnected(remember "drive by wire") from most of the systems in the vehicle It takes a lot of software faults to produce what was described. I've written a lot of computer code and if you had safety in mind at all when coding these systems you won't get that kind of cascade failure and still allow the engine to run WOT. | ||
| Froggy |
Yep it all stems to the drive by wire systems. When they are designed right and are properly tested, they are fantastic. Allowing computer control improved ABS and anti skid systems. | ||
| Froggy |
One of the recalls was that the programming makes the car go WOT on its own, no other input needed. Toyota never coded in anything like a throttle override when heavy braking. That feature is now present in the post recall programming. | ||
| Sifo |
About neutral, not sure what car she was driving, on the Prius, you have a joystick for a shifter. You can move it to neutral, but its merely a suggestion. Sometimes it will just beep at you instead of going into N. Also, the parking brake on that thing is worthless, if the car didn't chime, you wouldn't know it was on. The cruise control - the issue was that I stepped on the brake, and the Prius decided that instead of disengaging cruise control it would accelerate to compensate for the lost speed. I had it only happen once to me so I never thought anything further about it. This is fixed by one of the more recent recalls, its just an ECM reflash as far as I can tell. About shutting them down - From what I have read online (never got a chance to try it) that you have to hold the power button for 5-10 seconds like a computer. In a panic situation, the average person would play morris code with the button rather than hold it. This still ignores the brakes though. Brakes on most cars are stronger than the engine. We aren't talking late 60's / early 70's big block muscle cars with drum brakes. I remember when Audi when through this in the mid 80's. If i remember correctly they found people were just standing on the gas pedal. Something doesn't seem right about what I've heard so far. | ||
| Sifo |
BTW, I don't means to sound like I don't think there is a problem here at all. It just seems like very strange things are being reported that don't add up. Really not uncommon in this sort of thing. The publicity makes it worse too. | ||
| Froggy |
The Prius does most of its braking through the electric motor's "regenerative braking". It comes with shopping cart brakes to take care of the last 30% or so. | ||
| Gbackus |
sifo: "properly tested" being the key, the code required to test the code being implemented is lengthy and expensive(on the order of 7-20 times as much) and from what i've been told, none of the major automotive manufacturers have spent the time or money to develop the proper testing protocols(as you would see in the flight/aerospace industries) | ||
| Aesquire |
I think the brakes in the Prius are from the Echo, as is the base engine. Not bad brakes, but, like a Dodge Caravan, undersized for the mass. They work fine, but you replace rotors more often, than an older "regular car". I've had one unintended acceleration incident in a 72 Polara where the Cruise control, ( which was acting up for weeks, needing you to hold the button down at 65 to get it to engage at 60 ) kicked in as I entered Rochester's "Can of Worms". ( an abomination of an x-way crossing that won an award...and a record for fatal accidents, It's been torn down & replaced ) The pedal dropped away....got up to 75 with brake tapping and turning off the CC doing nothing. I'm in a curve, finally stood on the brakes, locking all 4 up as I grabbed the shifter...then it stopped. I ripped out the CC connections on the other side of the Can. Now that was a car with police/fleet heavy duty brakes, but also a police engine. ( dad ordered a sleeper....I won a lot of races in that plain clothes interceptor ) half these people are not responding well to an unexpected thing...... but there still is a problem with these cars. The political aspect seems ... mixed crap & real. | ||
| Strokizator |
Me thinks GM (Gov'ment Motors) has a lot to do with it. More sales thru collusion? I don't want to sound like I see a conspiracy around every corner but there are people out there who would gain by Toyota's problems. They overtook GM as the world's largest manufacturer and did so with largely non-union factories. The UAW would love to see some market switch toward cars they build or better yet have the govt coerce Toyota into union concessions as part of their mea culpa (there's a reason why Andy Stern is the #1 guest at the white house). Trial lawyers are already lining up for their share of the pie. Toyota got "too big, too fast" which apparently isn't politically correct these days. I'm not saying Toyota does not have real problems with their cars but I think the results of this should be very interesting. BTW, I've never owned a Toyota as I've always found their cars to be boring | ||
| Sifo |
I've done software that was regulated by the FDA. Quite familiar with lengthy and expensive testing. Most of what's being discussed is far less sophisticated than flight controls. Froggy makes some good point that apply to the Prius, but this witch hunt is going way beyond the Prius. If it were only the Prius I would give more weight to what Froggy is saying. As it is Froggy can be 100% correct, but just not applicable. | ||
| Cowboy |
I dont recall whitch year in the 90s, a ford F250 long wheel base when driven over aterace in a hay field would twist the frame and would open the throtle wide open that would give you one hell of a ride in a hey field till it would idel back down. (kinda fun though.) | ||
| Etennuly |
Toyota isn't the only company to smear the egg roll. I had one of the GM trucks in '97 that had the mysterious occasional total brake failure. Cruising down the interstate at 75 mph the brake warning light came on then the ABS light followed by the brake pedal falling loosely to the floor where it acted like it was detached, no brakes at all. Ten seconds later the ABS motor would run and the pedal would come back up, the lights would go out, all was well again(according to GM). GM was telling folks that it didn't happen. It was not possible. The arbitrator came to look at it thinking it would never happen. I found a pattern, every 200 miles it did it for about ten seconds. I set it up so that it had 195 miles from the last time. He let me ride with him when he tested the vehicle. I laughed until I cried when the pedal went limp at the time he was about to turn left into a parking lot to turn around. He was screaming "what do I do? It won't stop!". I calmly told him "turn off the turn signal and go straight, no need to turn now. The brakes will be back in a few more seconds". The man pulled that vehicle over and started writing on his note pad much faster than before. He pulled out his phone to call a tow truck, he wouldn't drive it any more. I told him how funny that was because GM said it was safe, it does not, and cannot have this problem. I drove him back to the shop because he was too shaken to drive. 'Sixty Minutes' did an expose' on the GM brake debacle where GM denied for a few years that the problem existed. Their brake computers cannot have been faulty. The TV show interviewed several people who had been in wrecks because of brake failure like the one I had. GM denied it for years, but they did buy my $36,000 Suburban back, but only because that arbitrator actually felt his "first" one that ever did it to him. My next round with them was a new 2003 GMC that had random one wheel brake full locking actuation. At 60 mph on the Interstate one rear wheel locked up for about five seconds, enough to set it sideways on the wet concrete. A minute after it released the other side locked up for five seconds sending it sideways the other way. Having all of this fun on my way to town I took it immediately to the GMC dealership. As I was telling them what happened the service manager took my key and said we will have a rental car for you in a few minutes. Interesting a service bulletin with this exact problem existed without a whisper to the vehicle owners. They pulled every brake part out of the truck and had to send it to GM immediately. They took it all, computer, abs computer, abs power unit, wiring, pads, rotors, everything that had to do with the brakes. I wonder if that was because of a lesson learned. Just glad the wife or one of my kids weren't driving it at the time it went stupid. In the late 60's and early 70's Ford had their turn at killing and maiming with their famous automatic shifters that would randomly shift out of park with the engine idling. I got to ride a fender across a parking lot while looking for a vacuum leak on a Falcon. It carried me and a fellow worker a couple hundred feet where it promptly backed into my personal VW Beetle, causing some major damage to both, while tossing us to the pavement. Shit happens. Mechanical devices fail. Electronic devices fail. Business' fail to care about the problem until they have killed enough people to make the public aware enough to care. If the public was not made aware they would continue to do business as normal. After all, it hurts the bottom line to believe there is a problem that needs to be fixed. | ||
| Sifo |
Shit happens. Mechanical devices fail. Electronic devices fail. Business' fail to care about the problem until they have killed enough people to make the public aware enough to care. If the public was not made aware they would continue to do business as normal. After all, it hurts the bottom line to believe there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Congress usually doesn't get involved though and certainly not as quickly as they have with this Toyota deal. | ||
| Etennuly |
Doesn't seem too quick to me. I think it was over a year ago when the video of the family in a 'Yoda suv that went nuts and could not be shut down, killed the family as it went under an overpass into a dirt embankment at over 100 mph. The lady that testified was from Knoxville area, her ordeal was over a year old also, if I recall the local news story correctly. How long should they wait? This real world testing does kill and maim people. | ||
| Teeps |
Froggy Posted on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 Yep it all stems to the drive by wire systems. When they are designed right and are properly tested, they are fantastic. Allowing computer control improved ABS and anti skid systems. The problem is the smarter the cars get; the dumber the operators become. Evidence what the electric foot did to motorcycling. | ||
| Sifo |
My point isn't about how long it took to get noticed, but how quickly the government has jumped in with congressional hearings and the number of recalls being imposed. But if you want to ask about the state of things a year ago... A year ago the government didn't own any of Toyota's competitors. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
why is everything made overseas ok with you guys, but American made stuff is shit? Why is it when American made cars are recalled, "it's about time!" But when a Japanese car is recalled, it's the big bad government trying to make them look bad? I think Toyota made themselves look like assholes because they KNEW about these issues and did nothing. Oh, wait. They kissed the ass of our government in 2007 to get by with some half assed fix. Once again showing that big business is king. Why do so many here put down American companies, yet defend foreign ones? Maybe you should move. Bet it would be a bigger deal if it happened to you or killed someone you knew. Guess the Japanese ain't all that superior like lot's here think. And they were built in Non Union plants too. Is it the workers fault too, as many here blame the "lazy union workers." | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I believe all the lies Toyota has been spewing over the last few years and people dying may have something to do with it | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
I have eyed more than a couple new GM products over the past 3 months. Their styling is getting better fore sure IMO. Because of the political ramifications of supporting them however I will buy elsewhere in the future. Government so closely knit with a huge corporation is bound raise some eyebrows with this kind of situation. Conspiracy or not there could be a conflict of interest. | ||
| Sifo |
Not defending Toyota other than from the folks giving their personal stories to congress it would be very difficult to connect the described symptoms to any flaw in the vehicles. Do all of the vehicles involved even have common systems? Audi went through a similar thing in the 80's and it turned out to be user error and media hype. People die in cars every day, almost exclusively due to user error. You need some concrete information to find a flaw though. |
