| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Read C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. In it he sums up my views quite well. The man was a genius beyond most geniuses. I have a question which is somewhat the converse of #5 as follows: If tomorrow you discovered that Jesus indeed was who he claimed and that all he promised and said was true, how would that affect you? To clarify, if you were somehow convinced that God is and that you do indeed have an eternal living soul, that you will continue in spiritual form after corporal death, and that your manner of existence in that form is dependent upon your salvation, how would that change your outlook on life? If you learned irrefutably that Jesus was God incarnate among us and that he did indeed willingly suffer torture, humiliation, degradation, and excruciating death by crucifixion for you, so that you might enjoy everlasting salvation, how would that change your life? I've asked that same question in various forms of a number of folks, non-believers and unbelievers. None of them have ever had the courage to seriously answer it. Who will be the first? | ||
| Liquorwhere |
I've asked that same question in various forms of a number of folks, non-believers and unbelievers. None of them have ever had the courage to seriously answer it. I think that question is one of the hardest questions you could put to anyone. You have moved them from a position of "faith" of "belief" to a position of "knowing". Knowing, as in seeing, experiencing, leaving all doubt, is far different from faith and therefore much harder to actually visualize until it happens. It reminds me of the first bullets that ever flew by me in the military, you "believe" you will act one way, until it happens it is only "belief", after it happens then you "know" and that "knowing" changes a person inside forever. For me it was completely life changing, that change could be construed as good or bad depending on how you look at it, but I lost a lot of my life fear that day. I have seen others that seemed to gain fear after the experience. I think the same could be said of "knowing", ie SEEING a deity in full form, seeing a heaven and therefore removing the belief. I would have to actually be shown the goods to properly answer. One would have a tendency to think that the path for their life would move to one of a more devout follower, not believer, knower and follower of the Christian Doctrine. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Jesus wasnt there today, Pedro had the relleno and kicked it up a notch with chorizo and fresh japalenos, Jesus is just alright with me, oh yeah, but the new guy is trying to win converts too. Few things better than a hot relleno and a torta chased with a Corona to make you realize that until you die, its all just jibber jabber, I can hardly wait for the Airing of the Grievances for Festivus this winter. | ||
| Moxnix |
"For Christianity is a fighting religion." --C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Book Two, Chapter One, The Rival Conceptions of God. IMHO, even this thread is sometimes an example of spiritual warfare. There can only be one truth, and that truth may not be pleasant, for me or a non-believer. There is not two or more truths. Perhaps people fear Christianity because it does not offer temporal blessings. I believe that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I believe that wise words from the mouth of a fool are still wise. I believe that, just as a dog returns to his own vomit, so does a fool return to his folly. | ||
| Hex |
I've read both Mere Christianity and Tales of the Dervish, but it's been a while. I do remember really enjoying them both. I'm going to mull over Blake's revised question number 5, but I'm fairly convinced that "in some ways it is indescribable." And being such, I will never know. Interesting to me that Adam and Eve and Original Sin had something to do with knowing.... | ||
| Moxnix |
Knowing. As opposed to "not knowing" that which is ineffable. Even the gnostic gospels offered in the Nag Hammadi make mention of God being ineffable. And those who wrote it were running the cult. So, they folk with all the "secrets" couldn't put the truth into words. Yet, they all "knew" the secrets available only for the illuminated. The "trick" is to stop struggling. In Eden, God laid out the rules, including: Do not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Eve was tempted by Satan and Adam followed Eve into breaking the one rule they were told not to break. As children, what happened when we broke the rules? | ||
| Metalrabbit |
Even the people that physically followed Christ all around over there took some convincing and they were living with Him! The way Jesus spoke and knowledge of the Scriptures is what captured them. Even the pharisees and sadducees were astounded of his knowledge of the Scriptures. The miracles that he performed on a daily basis cemented it for some but still people doubted. Simon Peter himself denyed that he knew Jesus, 3 times!, when it looked like he was going to be stoned by a crowd. Many that saw him crucified still had doubts, but I will tell you that when He later appeared to his desciples they were believers! They themselves received the same Power that Jesus had from the Holy Spirit and many performed miracles. Jesus Himself said that " If You had Faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to that mountain, Be cast into the sea and it would obey you". That same power exists to this day, in men, all over this planet. So whats the problem? I don't hear much of mountains flying all over the place. Its doubt,, they, and even I, have doubt that hinders. The problem is with the flesh, the old man with the brain, along with his doubting self. Once you receive Jesus and the Holy Spirit, you are still flesh. The flesh will always want its way, its weak, but the Spirit is always willing, strong with power but gentile and all knowing. Its a war that continually goes on within the Born Again man,, its a struggle of who rules your very self. Jesus gave us a written indicator on how to let the Spirit rule. Its a daily sacrifice of the flesh, denying what it wants,, and disciplining the mind thru the scriptures. Basically doing what most consider crazy stuff, fasting, praying,, you know. Thru doing, rather than thinking, is what gets you to where you want to go. Its not easy,, very hard to live that way on a daily basis for very long, but I'm still looking forward to throwing my first mountain. Theres so much more to say, so many convincing stories that I have seen in this life. Contrary to a previous line, it is a wonderful life and its full of some serious blessings that will really get your attention. Try a $400,000 house and property from some one you knew for only a few months for one. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
To me, knowing and free will are mutually exclusive. Unless you are delusional, you wouldn't act in a manner directly contrary to what you KNOW to be true. If the sky is blue, believing it to be green is folly. How could you KNOW and not be changed? I think that is the point. Faith is that tiny gap between the finger of man and the finger of God. In that gap of "KNOWING" lies faith and free will.  | ||
| Swampy |
Look Mommy!, a PENIS! LOL! It can be summed up as Brents' Law: People will be proportionally angry with your happiness. | ||
| Hex |
As children, what happened when we broke the rules? Well, as children, if we were caught, we were punished and if we learned our lessons we were eventually forgiven. But as adults, we don't need to be caught to punish ourselves. This is why I have tried earnestly to only do good things, or at the very least, to do no harm. ...it is a wonderful life and its full of some serious blessings... I couldn't agree with you more, I'm constantly fascinated. Unless you are delusional, you wouldn't act in a manner directly contrary to what you KNOW to be true.Somewhat in disagreement here, for a lot of humanities greatest achievements were the recognizability of favorable mistakes superior to "known" truths. As an artist/engineer type, and when I experiment with materials, it is most often the mistakes that lead to new discoveries. I do like your analogy of faith. Guess what, this has been my favorite BW thread to date. Thanks all, anyone else? | ||
| Blake |
"I'm fairly convinced that 'in some ways it is indescribable.' And being such, I will never know." I should have not made the questions so definite. How about if I rephras them to be more flexible? If tomorrow you discovered that Jesus indeed was who he claimed and that all he promised and said was true, how do you imagine that might affect you? To clarify, if you were somehow convinced that God is, and that you do indeed have an eternal living soul, that you will continue in spiritual form after corporal death, and that your manner of existence in that form is dependent upon your salvation, how do you imagine your outlook on life might change? If you learned irrefutably that Jesus was God incarnate among us and that he did indeed willingly suffer torture, humiliation, degradation, and excruciating death by crucifixion for you, so that you might enjoy everlasting salvation, in what ways do you figure your life might be changed? | ||
| Blake |
...it is a wonderful life and its full of some serious blessings... Interesting terminology. Recognizing blessings implies that we affirm the existence of a blesser, the one who endows the blessings upon us; otherwise it would just be random luck, yes? (Message edited by blake on January 22, 2010) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
That assumes acceptance that one is a blessee, rather than the recipient of random chance. As to Blake's #5, I have no way of knowing, I'll cross that bridge when/if I come to it. I can't give you any better answer than that. | ||
| Slaughter |
Good to know that the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, B'nai Brith, are all damned. Catholics - I mean the Papists are damned too. | ||
| Slaughter |
Awww damnit - I forgot the Mormans. They're damned too. | ||
| Slaughter |
I forgot the Unitarians in the damning. | ||
| Hex |
Recognizing blessings implies that we affirm the existence of a blesser, the one who endows the blessings upon us; otherwise it would just be random luck, yes? Maybe to you, which is fine by me, but recognizing blessings in this context could also imply that I respect Metalrabbit's enthusiasm for life, what ever word he chooses to describe it with. If tomorrow you discovered that Jesus indeed was who he claimed and that all he promised and said was true, how do you imagine that might affect you? I think it would affect me very greatly. I am impressed that so many around me have found him to be just that. I've got a big heart, there is room enough for Jesus and all the rest if real[god(s), satan, brahama, mohammed, buddah(s), etc]. I'm not an elitist. To clarify, if you were somehow convinced that God is, and that you do indeed have an eternal living soul, that you will continue in spiritual form after corporal death, and that your manner of existence in that form is dependent upon your salvation, how do you imagine your outlook on life might change? I don't see there being only one truth if any. All religions basically propose the above statement, and imo anyone of them will get you as close as you need to be to your own ineffable truth. If you learned irrefutably that Jesus was God incarnate among us and that he did indeed willingly suffer torture, humiliation, degradation, and excruciating death by crucifixion for you, so that you might enjoy everlasting salvation, in what ways do you figure your life might be changed?There are no irrefutables only politics of opinion. Most have suffered gravely in life, and died for other causes then their own self reward. Few have made the exact claim as Jesus, and some even more fantastic. If Jesus or any other phantasm or flesh appeared before me and demanded my attention and told me that it's way was the only way to where he wanted me to be I'd probably still be dubious if and when it disappeared. (remember, I claim to have seen and experienced some pretty marvelous things.) Now answer a real converse to question #5 about Jesus: If what you were believing (in Jesus or any other for that mater) was not true, would you want to know it? I mean, what if all this religious stuff were just politics of opinion, none of it was true, and for thousands of years, where millions of people have been murdered, oppressed, and waisting their time and others time offering their own version of nothing more that temporary peace of mind, would that change your life? | ||
| Metalrabbit |
"Let God Be True and Every Man a Liar" Romans 3:4,, "You Will Know the Truth and The Truth Will Set You free" John 8:32 There is "The Truth", you all act like it can't exist, How crazy is that? There's also a "Lie",, I assume thats alot less crazy for you, yeah? Since every man is a liar I can see how it might be confusing to some. It's not until the Truth comes on the scene to expose the lie. This is 4 yr old stuff,, if you'd rather "believe the lie then you condemn yourself". It seemed to me long ago that Truth was a very important thing,, my parents beat my ass for not telling it! You can go to jail if you lie to the judge,, I believe the truth is very important and it appears to be up to You to find it. The Truth is that God loves You, He has provided A Way for you,, He has come over to your side in a manner thats Unbelievable when you think about it. Well there it is, you have no excuse. (Message edited by metalrabbit on January 22, 2010) | ||
| Hex |
And you have yet to answer: If what you were believing (in Jesus or any other for that mater) was not true, would you want to know it? Thanks for the first insult in this thread. This is not 4 year old stuff, to me. | ||
| Metalrabbit |
I can be incorrect at many points but Jesus cannot. So yeah, let me have it. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Metal, let's keep it civil. If what you were believing (in Jesus or any other for that mater) was not true, would you want to know it? If Jesus was not God in flesh and we were able to KNOW without a doubt, I think the world would be a worse place not better. If there is no belief in any sort of afterlife where the life you lived meant something, why would a life of morality be superior to a life of depravity? Whether it is true or not, Hindus are guided toward a more moral life by a belief in reincarnation and enlightenment. Whether it is true or not, Muslims are guided toward a more moral life by a belief in Allah and a heaven filled with 72 virgins. Whether it is true or not, Mormons are guided toward a more moral life by a belief in God and the potential capacity to populate other planets. Whether it is true or not, Christians are guided toward a more moral life by a belief in Jesus and the potential for a heaven with clouds and harps and angels. If NONE of these folks believe that there is any real ramification of the life lived here and the afterlife afforded, why bother with a moral life at all? Phrased another way, if the driving force for morality is a fantasy, isn't the outcome, a more moral life, more beneficial to society than a life lived without the fantasy? The goal in life would then become to secure the most for yourself at the cost of everyone else. Why should I not take what you have if I want it? Why should I not seek sexual interactions with another regardless of their desire to do so? Why would truthfulness be important? Morality can not exist in a vacuum. There MUST be a belief in "something more" for morality to exist even if that belief is merely in the future of human kind to come. In this context, the afterlife exists only as the contribution of those today to the betterment of mankind to come. I believe this to be much of what makes up the green movement, Greenpeace, PETA, etc., whose participants profess, for the most part, little or no belief in the supernatural or in God of any sort. I find these folks seeking meaning in the effort of creating a better ecological future for generations to come. To them, this is their afterlife, the recognition of those who come later of their efforts now. It is seeking meaning in their lives without the benefit of a supernatural being as creator and overseer. Those who live amoral lives generally are of two types: Those who believe there IS something after this life but don't care what the ramifications are in living an immoral life and those who believe that there is nothing after this life and therefore no cosmic consequence to their actions once this life has ended. There are literally thousands of relief workers assisting in Haiti many of whom are Christian. Would the victims in Haiti be better served if these people felt no real obligation, in the spirit and name of Christ, to help? Would a starving person care if you were there in the name of Buddha if it meant that you fed them? Would they care more that you weren't there because you KNEW the truth that Jesus was not the Messiah, and God in flesh? | ||
| Eaton_corners |
If what I believe were not true, yes, I would want to know. I do not hold a belief just to have something to make me "feel good". My belief that Jesus is the Son of God, the Creator, and the Messiah comes from research and study of material that can be validated. Remember my three or so other posts about Lee Strobels book "The Case for Christ". I still maintain that the Truth is knowable, and God has left us plenty of evidence of His existence. If you really want to know the truth, ask God, He will show you. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
EC, I think there is STILL that narrow sliver of unknown even with the data outlined in The Case for Christ. That is where the last step of faith comes in. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
OK I'll go one step further; If ALL God based religions were demonstrably proved to be false simultaneously would the world be a better place? Personally I think, yes it would overall, due to the instant removal of reason for conflict. I appreciate however the large hole this would create in many people's lives. The troublemakers & extremists would find other causes to transmit their rage through, but against a less dis-united population their effect would less. | ||
| Hex |
Mr. Bastard, I don't have time tonight, but hopefully soon I'll rebut some of your thoughtful position. I've been remembering 8 chickens that I raised to maturity for eggs. If you have ever watched a group of them you might understand the social dynamic and it's relevance to my opinion of social behavior. Which came first? Morality or Religion? nobody can say, but I have a feeling that they were distinct in their origin in history. Mr. Grumpy, this is one direction I thought this thread might take. Being American, and now the recipient of Jihad, I would like to comprehend the nature of our proclaimed enemy. What drives us to kill in the name of our gods? How do we stop the madness? Tired now, see you soon.  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
due to the instant removal of reason for conflict This offers a false premise, that atheists are incapable of conflict. I believe the devil in the details is the potential impact of complete and total moral relativism. If religion was created by man, there must have been a point in time before man created religion where absolute global peace abounded. So that I know, what is that date? If there were no religion, man, capitalizing on human nature, would find some other reason to destroy himself. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Mr. Bastard, I don't have time tonight, but hopefully soon I'll rebut some of your thoughtful position. I look forward to the continued discussion. | ||
| Eaton_corners |
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. This is just a quick Wiki search but, it is pretty close to what I mean by faith. Ft._bstrd, I can see where there would be some areas of doubt and I often lose sight of how other people interpret faith. Using this definition, I consider faith as trusting God to be who He says He is, and capable of what He says He can do, based on historical and theological evidence, as well as personal experience. It seems that a lot of people consider the Bible as no more than a fictional story book designed to teach a lesson. Many credible historians, archaeologists, and scientists of various degrees have declared it to be a very accurate historical reference. In this light, I would say that the Bible is a history of humanity, through stories written about the personal experiences of the authors. And since their experiences included interaction with God, we now have the information to be able to have those same experiences with God. These writers have shown us the path to God. All we have to do is follow it. | ||
| Metalrabbit |
Hex, I apologize for what I said that would be offensive to you or anybody else. My inability to print things in blue is a problem that someone will have to help me with. I like your topic and would like to stay and interact in a positive way but I do have flaws. Banging gongs and crashing symbals seems to be one of them. | ||
| Slaughter |
All you need to know about religion when discussing it on moto-bbs: 1. Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah. 2. Protestants don't recognize the Pope as the head of the Church. 3. Baptists don't recognize each other in Hooters. |
