| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
Two al Qaeda Leaders Behind Northwest Flight 253 Terror Plot Were Released by U.S.
Sure, let's close Gitmo and release more terrorists. We can let them be rehabilitated with art classes and set free to do more damage. Makes me wonder whose side we are on. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Crayons? Is this for real? | ||
| P_squared |
Unfortunately, yes, it is for real. To be fair though, the 2 tango's in this shindig were released in '07 if I remember correctly, so can't blame it all on the current administration. It's not just an issue of closing Gitmo & moving them all to "Gitmo North" either IMO. The plain & simple truth as I see it is to stop practicing "catch & release." | ||
| Sifo |
To be fair though, the 2 tango's in this shindig were released in '07 if I remember correctly, so can't blame it all on the current administration. It's not just an issue of closing Gitmo & moving them all to "Gitmo North" either IMO. The plain & simple truth as I see it is to stop practicing "catch & release." No argument that we were too soft previously. We are getting softer though. "Gitmo North" if it happens will be a disaster regarding our ability to protect ourselves from AQ on the battlefield. | ||
| Eaton_corners |
Those guys have to be hurting by now from laughing at us so much.    | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Art therapy, what is the terminal velocity of a crayon ? Maybe if we could just give them a big hug and a stuffed animal they would love us.  | ||
| Iamarchangel |
And yet, somewhere, lost in US files, there is a program that worked. There was a program developed for a specific group of POWs that ran counter to every US instinct. The US took a group of what are still thought of as suicidal fanatics and treated them well. Far better than the Brits, who starved those POWs and Detainees, or the Aussies, who gunned down hundreds of unarmed POWs from that group. During their incarceration, the POWs were sending care packages back to their own country. (Unfortunately, very few packages reached their destination but that was their nations fault.) Many of the POWs, freed and now in their 90s, state that the best times of their lives were the years spent in US prison camps. All this going on while the US knew how badly their own people were being treated by the other side. Post-war, there was a very easy transition time. That country is now a strong ally of the US. International trade has enriched both countries. I'm talking about the US treatment of Japanese POWs and Detainees in WW2. It's a fantastic story. I spent years researching it, trying to find the author of the policy, or the actual stated policy, but I never did. Something right was being done back then. Here's another consideration: the Japanese in WW1 treated their prisoners so well that many refused to return home. That created a strong bond between Germany and Japan prior to WW2. The WW1 allies mocked the Japanese for their treatment and justified how the enemy had treated the captured Japanese. This led to the barbaric structure of Japanese camps that we are so familiar with. What is done in the past creates the present: what is done now creates the future. The present system is creating more terrorists. The US knows of a better way that has been proven in the past. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
great, four weeks of crayon therapy and then these 'rehabilitated' members will be put into work release programs in Illinois. Lets just give porn subscriptions to child molestors. You can do everything right in the enforcement side of the house, leave it to the incarceration/detention/prision system to negate your efforts. | ||
| P_squared |
The present system is creating more terrorists. Hogwash. Ultimately, it doesn't matter where we detain the tango's. If you take the time to check, you'll notice that the facilities & faculty at Gitmo have been under intense international scrutiny for quite some time. You'll be pleased to note that we were found to be treating the detainees humanely & in accordance with international standards. So, once you get past the PR BS surrounding Gitmo & come to the realization that it doesn't matter WHERE we keep the detainees in relation to AQ using their detention as a recruiting tool, what would you suggest? Next problem with implementing the plan you're thinking of is that the detainees are not state sponsored combatants. The Japanese & Germans of WWII were. Again, you can't "catch & release" unless you want to have to go after them again. | ||
| Sifo |
This is the sort of policy that will lead to capture of AQ on the battle field, followed by a quickie field interrogation, followed by disposal of subject. No fat lip stories leading to ridiculous court marshal proceedings, etc. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
P: you're wrong on all counts. The humane treatment is not noted anywhere. WW2 Allies held civilian detainees in military camps so still part of equation. Difference is US ones lived happily ever after. Under British care, hundreds of detainees, not military, died of exposure and starvation. The Japanese: best time of my life was spent in a US POW camp. There was no need for catch and release post-WW2. The returning POWs played a very important role in helping create a new relationship with the US. Something unique was done by the US gov't in WW2. Surprisingly, it worked very well. I'm suggesting it could work still. | ||
| P_squared |
P: you're wrong on all counts. The humane treatment is not noted anywhere. Am I wrong? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2009/02/20/AR2009022002191.html?wprss=rss_natio n I'm aware that we held detainees in military camps during WWII. There's a LOT of Germans around where I grew up in Nebraska that weren't there before WWII. Ft. Robinson near Crawford Nebraska was 1 of the POW camps. I'm also aware that we returned POWs after all hostilities had ceased. Last I looked, hostilities haven't ceased with AQ. So how would you effectively change it once you get past all the PR BS, because I can pretty much guaranty that no matter how & where we detain the tangos, someone somewhere will claim we're being inhumane to them. It's written in their playbook. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Best solution for the true believer:  | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Taken Captive: A Japanese POW's Story Amazon.com Review This is an extraordinary true-life POW story, told by a Japanese soldier captured by American forces during World War II. Ooka's concern with his imprisonment was not fear of brutality, but with how capture would look back home in Japan. In this endearing account, he relates how his American captors treated their prisoners as human beings, confusing the prisoners who saw themselves, through their own cultural filter, as dishonored wretches who had allowed capture rather than suicide or martyrdom. Ooka writes that this cultural dissonance prevented the Japanese POWs from "accepting the Americans' warmheartedness with simple gratitude." | ||
| Nevrenuf |
 i'd rather make sure the first time. reach out and touch someone. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Ferris: this is a great book and much longer than the review. I'm not going to give you the long quote, but it's on page 285 of my copy. Ooka states that it did not happen when he actually got home. We could do this all day, this was my thesis, I have lots of reference material, and then you'll put up a pic of a mushroom cloud (if the past predicts the future). | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Where are your facts to backup your claims, Iama ??? | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
some facts for you, Iama Western Allies: 35,000 Jap POW's from 1941-45 Soviet Union: 500,000 We all know how well the Soviet Union treated prisoners. Using your logic that positive treatment of prisoners by the U.S. directly led to some post-war utopia, shouldn't we also presume that negative treatment would also have an affect. Furthermore, seeing as the Soviet Union had far more POW's shouldn't we expect that negative treatment to outweigh the positive treatment by the Allies? As usual, you offer no facts nor even sound logical thinking. It's all about "feelings" with the left. Oh yea, weren't you bitching to me about the use of the atomic bomb on Japan? Would you have us believe that 35,000 returning Japanese POW's spreading tales of love and joy at the hands of their captives somehow negated the horror of the two atomic bombs or the tales of Japanese captives at the hands of the Soviet Union? (Message edited by Ferris_von_bueller on December 29, 2009) (Message edited by Ferris_von_bueller on December 29, 2009) | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Clarification: the term detainees has changed over the years. My material was about enemy civilians taken in combat theatres. The US/Canadian concentration camps for the Japanese was a disgrace and not part of the POW discussion. Armed detainees in WW2 were as likely to be shot as imprisoned. One country's "resistance fighter" is another country's "collaborator". Post-war that definition was changed to protect "underground movement". In some cases, with US help, new nations formed. As those battles took place, soldiers of a future state were captured. Stateless, as soldiers, they were not combat POWs. They were then classified with detainees. This last change is the guys at Gitmo. My point still stands: the US did something brilliant with POW camps in WW2. It could do it again. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
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| Iamarchangel |
Ferris: pretty good so far. No nuke yet. Facts are in the book you quoted the review from for one. Seeing as you're in Amazon, they'll link you to others. Read what I am saying again to answer your Russian argument. ONLY the US did this. ONLY the US has a great legacy on this. NO OTHER country did this. Left or right doesn't matter here. I'm saying the US did something unique and good. It could do it again. (Hmmn, that's a left statement? Doesn't sound like one to me.) | ||
| X5thxgearxfreak |
Crayons? Let them do some Gustav Metzger auto-destructive art. Maybe they'll vent all their pent up anger while breaking shit in the name of art thus having little rage to carry out terrorist attacks. Or just put them in the pen with sex offenders and let them get used as bitches. Or put them in with general population and let them get the shit beat out of them, maybe that would finally get them to re-think being a terrorist, but once a terrorist, always a terrorist. | ||
| Aptbldr |
Saudi Arabia's gov't is scared of terrorists, too. Like Pogo, "they've seen the enemy, and he's us". Terrorist groups recruit single uneducated men from poverty as its cannon fodder. Much more than crayons, SA's program snatches up suspects; then re-educates them, providing employment, a wife, and reportedly produces conforming citizens, and doubtlessly failures (= gov't program). | ||
| P_squared |
One country's "resistance fighter" is another country's "collaborator". Post-war that definition was changed to protect "underground movement". One problem with that thought process. AQ membership is multi-national last I looked. The only "country" I think they're interested in establishing is a worldwide caliphate. To your point, yes, there are similarities between civilian POWs during WWII and the detainees at Gitmo. Unfortunately, those similarities are very minimal. They aren't fighting/resisting on behalf of a country/nation. So how do you propose to use your WWII model to accomodate the current realities in order to achieve the results you think you can? I'm interested in hearing the details, because I believe you've made some very serious false assumptions. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I would add I don't care what the reasons for others behavior are. I won't allow myself to be bogged down in mindless intellectual banter and drivel preventing me from taking action to protect my country, my family and myself. Case in point, I read today, that Afghanistan is falling apart quicker than anticipated. Even in areas, such as the north, where resistance has been low. The north is patrolled by the Germans but the article pointed out the German soldiers have very strict rules of engagement hampering their abilities to respond to threats. Political correctness or whatever you choose to call it has no place in war. Once you commit to violence, you go in and you get the job done as quickly as possible. Wait till these morons get a hold of some nuclear material. I doubt many will be calling for art classes after that holocaust occurs. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Another problem is that the change in language was put in place about 25-30 years ago, partly to protect the US backed AQ in its origins. There were a couple of other paramilitary orgs brought under that umbrella at the same time. So, US policy knows full well the distinction we're discussing. I find it amusing that you would like to know how I, as a left leaning, social capitalist, social unionist, Scottish-born Canadian citizen would rewrite US prisoner policy. Left to me, the situation wouldn't have come up. I far prefer the Mossad or SAS models for hide and seek games. The US had SEALs for hide and seek, they don't anymore. Like I said a number of times. somewhere in the US files, there is a system that has a better track record. P: I'm sorry I can't address your beliefs. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Whoa, Ferris: we're almost agreeing here. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
We are? Frankly, my head is spinning | ||
| Cityxslicker |
The soviet idea of rehabilitation is that you were allowed to work, until you could no longer work, then you were tried and executed. The Russian idea of justice is not one of rehabilitation. It is one of retribution. Go study the Bolshoi Theatre Terrorist attack. The Spec Police gassed the entire population, unmasked the terrorists, identified them, and put rounds on target on the spot. Next their relatives were disappeared, the homes leveled, the assets seized and buzinesses burned. No trial was ever held. Nobody ever saw a crayon. | ||
| P_squared |
I far prefer the Mossad or SAS models for hide and seek games. The US had SEALs for hide and seek, they don't anymore. "Hide & Seek" games are still going on, but supposedly only with the highest level capturees, and supposedly only on a "temporary" basis before being turned over for long term holding or being released. The problem is what do you do with the foot soldiers and the "big fish" that are no longer in black sites? Regardless of where we hold them, the accusations of inhumane treatment will be aired. It's in their playbook. It's worked wonderfully for them in the past, so I don't imagine they'll change that just because we close Gitmo & move them all to "Gitmo North." So do you hold them as POWs until hostilities are over, knowing you're gonna have a PR headache the entire time? Or do you release them and wait for them to strike again? What are the specifics of your solution that turns them from fanatics bent on our destruction to our friends? |
