| Author | Message | ||
     Theironmaiden22 |
While I was watching the news at 6 this evening, they had a short piece about this Salvation Army gig where needy families can pick up a new toy for their children. However, all of the video clips of the gig showed nothing but Muslims, and that didn't make any sense at all. My point being, and I may be wrong about this, but why should Muslims who don't practice Christmas and certainly don't practice Hanukkah, take toys that could go to a family that practices either Christmas or Hanukkah that really needs them. It just didn't make any sense to me, more like Bullshit with a capital B. Do I stand alone on this matter? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Technically you can be Arab and not be Muslim, actually be a Christian; hell it did come from that area. If you really want to get riled up about religion and the arabs, go read the book of Mithras | ||
| Slaughter |
WTF? People asking questions like this probably wonder WHY so many of us are driven to be atheists. What is "wrong" in your "book" with a Christian doing good work by helping a Muslim? | ||
| Nik |
Christmas in the United States is not exclusively a Christian holiday and the emphasis on gifts as part of Christmas, and Chanukkah (actually the whole emphasis placed on Chanukkah at all as some kind of Kosher parallel to Christmas is largely an American thing, its a very minor holiday), is an American adaptation. What's wrong with assimilating Muslims into American culture? (Message edited by nik on December 23, 2009) | ||
| Theironmaiden22 |
Theres absolutely nothing wrong with helping people of Islam, but when they don't do Christmas why should they take CHRISTMAS presents from other people who actually practice Christmas. Look, I know Christmas isn't all about gifts, but how would you feel if your child had nothing to open on Christmas because someone who doesn't even celebrate Christmas took what would have been your childs Christmas present? All they are doing is taking advantage of Christmas. My girlfriend Samahr was born in Iraq but her parents fled during Saddam Husseins rule when she was 3. But even she thinks it's wrong to take advantage of anothers holiest days, she's not a devout Muslim but is one nonetheless. | ||
| Nik |
What makes you think they don't celebrate Christmas in a secular American capacity? For me growing up, Christmas was about presents, a fake tree, Santa, Rudolph and Frosty. There was nothing holy about it. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I will push the envelope and raise you one. grew up Jehovahs Witness... There is no Christmas, and certainly it wasnt a December birth. Literal translation for them means that the birth of Christ wasnt from a Virgin Mary, but happened to Mary during the time of the Virgin, ie Virgo, Ie SEPTEMBER. They aint big on wearing the cross either I am truly convinced that non of us have it right and we will all find out only in the end, until then, do your best not to kill each other....well not so much anyways | ||
| Jasonnennig |
WOW, I don't know if you stand alone??? but I for one, don't stand with you... | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
The Muslim menace is an extremely tiny minority of muslims. Most muslims are like everybody else, they just want to get on with their lives in peace. Contrary to what some sections of the media would have you believe, most muslims detest Al Quaeda & their ilk as much as you or I. So why shouldn't needy families accept a gift at this time of excess? They believe in the same God as Christians. Where do we go from here? no gifts for Buddhists as they don't believe in god, they just follow the teachings of a man. Nothing at all for atheists of course. Agnostics could be tricky, but I have the answer, pot luck, some packages have a gift & some just an empty box. Now I think I've about run dry on irony, so I'll just wish you all a pleasant festive season of your choice. Cheers,  | ||
| Wbrisett |
The world is indeed a very strange place. When Muhammad moved to Medina, he protected and helped the Jews and Christians who lived there. They practiced their worship of God openly and it wasn't until later when he realized neither religion would accept him as a prophet did he marginalize them. However, today in nearly every Islamic dominated country you cannot openly practice either Judaism or Christianity, in fact in Iran, you will be imprisoned for such acts (in Iran in particular you better not be a practicing Baha'i or you can be put to death if you don't renounce your faith). There is no doubt that Christmas, by some no longer is secular celebration, but that doesn't mean that was the intention. We do know that December 25th isn't the actual birthday of Jesus. We also know that the early Christian church used December as the date simply to overshadow the pagan celebrations at the time. But, Christians around the world have been celebrating the birth of Jesus in December for centuries. The idea of giving gifts is a reminder of what the wise men did, and the ultimate gift Jesus gave. Around the world, Christmas is celebrated differently and has different customs, but the giving of gifts remains constant. Many cultures view the giving of gifts as a nice thing, and it is, but they are missing important points as to why it started. The problem is everybody has a religion (not having a religion or belief system is in its own way a quasi-religion in my book) and ideas don't always mesh and cause all sorts of issues, just look at the middle east or Ireland for proof. Is it wrong for other religions to adopt the practice of gift giving? No, in fact many Christian practices were borrowed from others. However, I do find it very odd that the Islamic community would try to secularize a Christian holy day. Put me down as puzzled why they would do it, but I'm not offended since I believe that regardless of religion, it is what Jesus would have wanted. Wayne | ||
| Ourdee |
No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th? The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast. In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born. In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice, known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured, the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year. Huge Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods. The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees. In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them. Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the true tree of life, Christ.” The controversy continues even today in some fundamentalist sects. Written by Kelly Wittmann - © 2002 Pagewise | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Thanks Ourdee, I always wondered why Christmas is the same day each year but Easter wanders about.  | ||
| Rainman |
I don't know how the Salvation Army works in your area, but ours is pretty good at making sure whoever gets their food and presents is really in need. They're also in the business of trying pass on their religion, too, and do not hide it. They tend to be good people. If they're helping, someone needs it. | ||
| 99savage |
Don't know any of the facts on this particular case but growing up near Buffalo, 60 years ago, knew a lot of people that were immigrants from the Middle East - Mostly Lebanon w/ a few from Syria + some misc. All considered themselves of Arabian ancestry - All were Christians, quite devout, quite active in church(which is how I knew them) However they dressed like the rest of us & their country of origin only came up @ dish-to-pass dinners. (Chick peas = good, Goat = OK, Raw Lamb = BAD) Did not help you a bit but a Joyous Christmas to all | ||
| Just_ziptab |
We did a "needy family Christmas thing" at work several years ago.Thru the plant,we ponied up several hundred dollars for specific gifts on their wish list and cash. I believe the county selected 'our' family to donate to. When the time came to go to the house and present the stuff......Nobody was home. Per the neighbor.....THEY WAS GONE ON VACATION TO DISNEY WORLD! Needy my ass.....we never did it again. | ||
| Cataract2 |
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| Slaughter |
I've had an epiphany! ANYBODY going to hell deserves NO Christmas charity. There - I solved it for everybody. No need to thank me. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Contrary to what some sections of the media would have you believe, most muslims detest Al Quaeda & their ilk as much as you or I. If the moderates would speak out more, or do something to stop the radicals, they would be more accepted and trusted. In the US you rarely hear about moderate Muslims trying to stop the radical element. You also rarely hear them condemn terror. The statistics show a frightening percentage of young male Muslims feel that Jihad attacks are justified. Not helping the cause over here in the states. In the US we have the KKK, but they get huge counter-protests by Christians and Jews when they march in public. They risk a beat-down when they show up anywhere in "uniform". Muslims need to do the same with their nut-jobs. | ||
| X5thxgearxfreak |
+1 Spatten. There will always be an Islamic person who's dead set on denouncing Jews and Christians 'Infidels'. There will always be a Muslim willing to blow himself up in the name of 'Allah' so he can get to heaven and get his 70 sum virgins. What the bloody hell are they going to do with that many virgins? If you ask me, Islam was created around 500 AD, which would tell me, Muhammad probably got all the good bits of Judaism and Christianity, put his own twist on it and called it Islam. You can't tell me Muslims have respect for any other religion, maybe to a certain extent but when the Qur'an denounces both as infidels in the first f*cking 20 pages, they obviously think their shit doesn't stink. What's worse is they're teaching kids to hate the USA. Kids. That means when they grow up, they'll teach their kids to hate the USA too which also means unless someone can pound the fact that everyone is a human being into their heads, we're animals just like dogs only we can walk, talk, and chew gum at the same time. Split Jerusalem into 3 parts, with each part having an equal bit of the 'Holy Hill'. Let the Jews build their temple, let the Christians build an ultimate church and wait and see who's Messiah will return. The one who's right takes the Hill. | ||
| Nik |
There will always be an Islamic person who's dead set on denouncing Jews and Christians The same could be said of Christians, and I bet if you looked hard enough you'd find an angry intolerant Jew also. Split Jerusalem into 3 parts, with each part having an equal bit of the 'Holy Hill'. Let the Jews build their temple, let the Christians build an ultimate church and wait and see who's Messiah will return. The one who's right takes the Hill. There is so much wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin. Okay, here's a start: there's no scriptual basis for any of that in any of the three Abrahamic cannons. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Guys, you gotta give your heads a shake. First: Every time a bomb goes off in the market or a line up and kills, those are the moderates being counted. The moderates are the ones trying to stabilize the economy by going shopping. (Terrorism is an economic war.) 2nd: Muslims believe in the same principle as most of us in regards to their religion. I cannot stand up and denounce, say, Southern Baptists because I disagree with some issues. That's just wrong. Part of the reason why our guys are dying over there is freedom of religious thought. Selah. 3rd: Sally Ann is basically a good organization and not too naive about these things. 4th: You know as much about Hanukkah as you do about Christmas, spend some time studying. 5th: With some of these comments, the parents don't have to teach their kids to hate the US. Why, you won't even share toys at Christmas. What does that teach their kids? 6th: The focus at Christmas is the giving, not the getting. 7th: Have a merry Christmas. | ||
| Spatten1 |
He's right about Chanuka. The 8-day miracle was added over a hundred years later to get people to celebrate, and the presents, to the extent it's done in the US, are just assimilation to the Christmas traditions in the US. The Holiday is really to celebrate the Macabees slaughtering and kicking out the Asyrians, a proxy for the Romans. The Macabees, being religious zealots and ass kickers, also slaughtered plenty of Jews that had assimilated with the Roman's. They took the ransacked Temple back and that is what we really celebrate. Just like most Jewish holidays, "They tried to kill all the Jews, they failed, let's eat." | ||
| Spatten1 |
Muslims believe in the same principle as most of us in regards to their religion. I'll quote Golda Meir: "When Arabs love their own children more than they hate Jews there will be peace." | ||
| Spatten1 |
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| Spatten1 |
In light of the DICK that tried to blow up the Delta flight yesterday, let's see how many moderate Muslims step up to speak out against it. The more that do, the more respect I will have for them and their community. | ||
| Swampy |
For What it is Worth I found this on Mlive.com From Mlive.com http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/12/us_off icials_explosives_set_of/2926/comments-3.html Posted by pug December 26, 2009, 5:47AM I was on this flight today and am thankful to be alive. My wife and I were returning from an African safari and had this connecting flight through Amsterdam. I sat in row 27, which was 7 rows behind the terrorist. I got to see the whole thing take place and it was very scary. Thanks to a few quick acting people I am still alive today. For those of you talking about airline security in this thread, I was next to the terrorist when he checked in at the Amsterdam airport early on Christmas. My wife and I were playing cards directly in front of the check in counter. This is what I saw (and I relayed this to the FBI when we were held in customs): An Indian man in a nicely dressed suit around age 50 approached the check in counter with the terrorist and said "This man needs to get on this flight and he has no passport." The two of them were an odd pair as the terrorist is a short, black man that looked like he was very poor and looks around age 17(Although I think he is 23 he doesn't look it). It did not cross my mind that they were terrorists, only that the two looked weird together. The ticket taker said "you can't board without a passport". The Indian man then replied, "He is from Sudan, we do this all the time". I can only take from this to mean that it is difficult to get passports from Sudan and this was some sort of sympathy ploy. The ticket taker then said "You will have to talk to my manager", and sent the two down a hallway. I never saw the Indian man again as he wasn't on the flight. It was also weird that the terrorist never said a word in this exchange. Anyway, somehow, the terrorist still made it onto the plane. I am not sure if it was a bribe or just sympathy from the security manager. FBI also arrested a different Indian man while we were held in customs after a bomb sniffing dog detected a bomb in his carry on bag and he was searched after we landed. This was later confirmed while we were in customs when an FBI agent said to us "You are being moved to another area because this area is not safe. Read between the lines. Some of you saw what just happened."(The arrest of the other Indian man). I am not sure why this hasn't made it into any news story, but I stood about 15-20 feet away from the other Indian man when he was cuffed and arrested after his search. What also didn't make the news is that we were held on the plane for 20 minutes AFTER IT LANDED!. A bomb could have gone off then. This wasn't too smart of security to not let us off the plane immediately. You can see what time I am writing this as I am having a hard time sleeping tonight. Just thought some of you would like to know what I saw, Merry Christmas. Inappropriate comment? Alert us. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Understand Journalism: It's a great story and why would any reporter diminish it by bringing in interviews with Muslims at the early stages? Later stories are now stating that the man's own family had reported him to US, and other International authorities, as unstable and likely to be violent. That was six months ago. Leave off the concern about the plane being removed from the main part of the airport and the passengers having to wait. Standard operating procedure. Read Friendly Fire or Collateral Damage. What you are asking for is something akin to asking the US Episcopalian Church leaders to apologize for the actions of the Roman Catholic Church in World War 2. It is actually more like asking an independent small town Baptist/Pentecostal to apologize for that idiot who screams homophobic hate at military funerals. There's no real link. It's a good time to reflect on the strategy of a heightened military/police state. There's no real defense against low tech warfare except alert citizens. Why are our countries invading our privacy, our peace of mind, when they can't justify it? Oops, time to move on. Back to the thread: First rule of the Warrior: make sure ALL the children are safe. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
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| Iamarchangel |
Well, that would break the rule, pretty colours and all. My friend was an 8 year old child in Hiroshima when one of those was dropped. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Obviously, she lived !!! |
