| Author | Message | ||
     Rde48 |
In response to Harley Davidson's abrupt demise of Buell Motorcycle Company I decided to let the Board of Directors know what I thought. Here is a letter I received back from Mr. Jon Flickinger President of Buell Motorcycle Company.  Hand signed even. I get the feeling that unless they are stupid they will be make Buell based Harley Davidson Sportbikes at some point in time even though they say they won't, I don't believe them. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks a whole lot like an impersonal form letter. Without knowing the substance of the letter you sent that he was responding to its hard to tell. Were any of your comments addressed directly? Also, an autopen makes a signature look just like the real thing. Whether its a form letter or not, its good that your efforts were acknowledged. | ||
| Doerman |
Looks to me to be written for Flick by a HD spokesholes and signed by Flick because he has a career to look after and a family to feed. That is pure conjecture on my part! Just does not sound like Flick to me. Difficult times makes for difficult choices. Flick is a standup guy and has chosen in support of his family, and I can respect that. Again, pure conjecture on my part! I dug up the home addresses on the Directors I wrote to avoid the "mail interception" at the HQ. | ||
| Mike75 |
Circle the wagons and wait it out, I guess is their way ahead. They need to get out of their little circle and realize that Harleys are becoming irrelevant. Dead, probably not, but the crowd that likes a bike for much more than the bike itself is entering into retirement communities, and the new generation doesn't get it. Eric Buell is free at least from the death throes. | ||
| Court |
Every time HD has formed a group to "think outside the box" they have staffed it with folks from inside the box. | ||
| Two_buells |
>>>>Every time HD has formed a group to "think outside the box" they have staffed it with folks from inside the box True statement, look out, York is coming back with a vengeance. | ||
| Mike75 |
Think of the center mass price of most of HD's bikes, maybe 13-14K? Generously? What market is that? Do you think the people that pony up that kind of money for all the "brand" (meaning all the emotional attachments to owning one) are not seriously re-assessing things with the economy now? Early-80s killed triumph (which was lingering anyway) but my dad bought a fresh out of the box 83 honda in like 86, I mean it was never unpacked! Motorcycles are VERY vulnerable to paradigm shifts in thinking, and Harleys come down to a lot of cash for a "weekend warrior" crew. They rode the wave excellently but it's crashing on the beach, and with the lineup they got (all plus 12k chrome boats) they have their pants around their ankles. They cut the sportster line to a handlefull of fashion victims which were the only affordable line. Also, he's basically saying they can't afford Buell anymore. And again, I blame it on their dealerships not embracing, and slitting their own throats. A strong buell brand, with price point and performance comparable to the big three, would float a lot of dealerships that are now going to tank. They're re-investing themselves into the museums and coffee table books, and nothing else. | ||
| Gregtonn |
I found this to be fascinating: "The Company's strategy is to grow by delivering innovative, high-impact products and outstanding costumer experience, focused on the Harley-davidson brand." Imagine all the fascinating biological occurrences when a snake (H-D) continues to swallow it's own tail. G | ||
| Drhacknstine |
"to sell race parts and MOTORCYCLES." I like that.... | ||
| Unravels |
"outstanding costumer experience", hit it right on the head | ||
| Davegess |
Every time HD has formed a group to "think outside the box" they have staffed it with folks from inside the box And, big surprise, they come up with a BOX! | ||
| Jb2 |
Form letter. | ||
| Jon |
The letter says no more than what we already know, in fact less than. It's a non-statement by a politician. | ||
| Tpoppa |
By all accounts John F is a stand up guy. He took the time to sign a letter to a Buell consumer. That is more that many at HD would do. I'm sure their is more he would like to say about the Buell closing. Unless he is looking to commit career suicide, he isn't going to release any message that isn't approved by HD. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Wherein I further endear myself to y'all... What do some of you think he should have said? Maybe appear in a hair shirt ripping at his clothes while he writes checks to each of you? This gathering at the Buell Wailing Wall reminds me of the cancerous bitterness that many ex-Bull owners hold because 13 years ago something failed on their S1. Harley screwed the pooch pretty badly with Buell... no doubt about it, but to expect Flick, or anyone in his position, to publicly flagellate themselves to appease you is, well, it's silly. Hey, Erik's name is on the tank, why aren't you excoriating him? How about Court, who's had a lip-lock on Buell (the motorcycle!) for 25 years? Or Dave Gess, who knows where all the bodies are buried? Or Abe, or Dan, or the guy that delivered the water bottles to the break room? I shudder to think how you'd react to a real problem in your life. ..and, btw, any criticism of Flickinger does the man a serious disservice. (reread Tpoppa's post). I feel much better now. | ||
| Ratbuell |
+100 Reg, and Tpoppa. I've met Jon a few times, and he IS a standup guy. But, he has a job to do. Do I think he had anything to do - directly - with the end of the Buell/HD pairing? Nope. Do I suspect he's done everything in his power to make the transition as smooth as possible, on every level he can? To quote above...it's pure conjecture on my part, but my gut says HELL YES. He just doesn't strike me as the type who likes to see people hurting, and I have no problem thinking he'd do everything he could for all the people affected. Do I think he's as upset as we are about the whole deal? Sure. Anyone who was at Last Ride and listened to him talk knows that. Jon's a good guy. He has a j-o-b to do, though...and the reason we all get paid to do our jobs is because they aren't always fun. If they were always fun...we wouldn't get paid. Those are called "hobbies". And my bet is, it's a real pen signature. | ||
| Doerman |
You're absolutely correct in what you are saying, Reg. However, you are saying it with so much condescension, why? A better choice for HD is to not have responded. Instead they are using Flick as a water boy for them. A person that we as a Buell community highly respect. Now, he's used as a banner carrier for their ill conceived decision? That disgust me. And if you, Reg don't think it was an ill conceived decision of HD to close Buell, then I'd suggest you take up the journalistic instinct and go look. WSJ is doing just that as we speak. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
any criticism of Flickinger does the man a serious disservice Your comment was probably not directed at me but I agree with what you're saying, hence the last line of my first post at the start of the thread. The fact that any response was made to the OPs letter is more than I would expect from most company presidents. They are busy people, and shuttering a company is probably harder than starting a new one because of looming deadlines, whereas a new company can grow at its own pace. Sure it would have been nice to get a direct and personal letter in response, but imo its not realistic to expect one. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Is my "condescension" worse than the efforts to portray Flickinger as a "water boy?" I've always tried to hold to the rule of not saying anything in print that I wouldn't say in person. Would you call Flick a banner-carrying water boy to his face? Harley is in a "no win" position. Had they "not responded" do you think that would have changed the tone of the Wailers? I wish I had the resources of the WSJ. I've a 3-inch thick binder of info on this. While it's increased my concern about what has transpired, I've yet to find a "smoking gun" that sez anything illegal has transpired. What Wandell.. and he's calling the shots.. is most "guilty" of is ignoring everything but the numbers. He comes from a very dispassionate business (Johnson Controls)and appears to have given short shrift to the enthusiast/passion base of the motorcycle business. I liken his position to that of a battlefield general in that his mission is to insure the survival of his troops. Unfortunately, collateral damage (Buell, MV) appears to be necessary. I'm not agreeing with what he did with Buell... just offering my perspective on it. The reality is (barring the finding of serious wrong-doing) we will not know if his moves are right or wrong for several years. And, of course, it will never be right with regard to Buell. The one thing that I have discovered is that it appears his moves have garnered good support from his management team. Make of that what you might, but if you were an employee of HD I believe you would support moves that saved your bacon. HDI's most serious problem is their HDFS arm; if they can't work their way out of that morass, then... I believe... the company as we know it is in serious trouble. My understanding of the WSJ effort is that it centers around various financial moves, and not the decision to off Buell itself. I await their conclusions eagerly | ||
| Court |
>>>HDI's most serious problem is their HDFS arm I agree with about everything said here . . including the 3" file . . seems the WSJ has a similar file we may hear more about in January. As I have said time and time again. . . Flick is a top notch person and businessman. There is NOTHING he can say . . practically or legally. He's as bound as others. I think it was really a stand up gesture for him to take the time to respond. He's a person, in my experience of the highest integrity. I think HDFS, on my personal list, would fall in the #3 list of "areas of concern" behind huge cutbacks in engineering and lack of a more defined plan than "lower your head and go like hell toward our "core customer"". Things . . . at least according to the few who will talk . . . are in total free fall within. While I agree with Reg that many favor anything that "saves their bacon" . . there are. . in equal number . . folks who look at the facts and say "if they'll do that to Buell, what would keep them from doing that to me". A lot of loyalty left Harley-Davidson with the divestiture of Buell even among folks who could give a rat's ass about Buell. | ||
| Doerman |
Reg: I am operating under the assumption that Flick is reading this thread. And yes, I would say the following to his face: "I am sorry to see that HD is making you to be the water boy and carry this ill conceived message. It must hurt because I know you to be a man of integrity. I also know that has not changed." HD move, was it right or wrong? Who knows. It sure look wrong at this moment. | ||
| Sayitaintso |
What Wandell.. and he's calling the shots.. is most "guilty" of is ignoring everything but the numbers. He comes from a very dispassionate business (Johnson Controls)and appears to have given short shrift to the enthusiast/passion base of the motorcycle business. I liken his position to that of a battlefield general in that his mission is to insure the survival of his troops. Unfortunately, collateral damage (Buell, MV) appears to be necessary. Great analogy, the problem with that approach is that like it or not motorcycling and the motorcycle industry isn't solely about the numbers, and using a guy who dispassionately looks at the numbers w/o understanding "motorcycling" is a recipe for how to shrinking your company. If it were only about the numbers, the AMF era would have been a success. There was no "soul" to the AMF era; HD was just another division of a huge conglomerate. Their actions, products, and results are a perfect illustration of a numbers first mentality. The numbers only guys should stick to trying to figure out a way to save their bacon from the HDFS morass and leave the operational side to the folks with passion (and business acumen). Maybe the killing of Buell and trying to sell MV is "battlefield triage", but it seems to me to be more like burning down bridges to protect your flank when there is very little danger from that direction. On the other hand there is a huge amount of opportunity on the other side of those bridges for those willing to make a commitment to attacking in that direction. Buell built those bridges into the sportbike market and the way the Buell closure has been handled MAY have forever closed any path to that market for HD. Heck even if HD directed Buell to make cookie cutter inline 4 bikes they would still have an advantage in that they could play the patriotic card much like they do with the cruiser market. That said, maybe things are so desperate that its time slash and burn everything to try to save themselves from collapsing under their own weight. I guess only time will tell if it was a case of hiring someone who didn't understand motorcycles but kept the MoCo afloat in a time of dire straits, or an opportunity that was not only missed but squandered. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
In the end, Harley is no different from any other corporation: It's loyalty is to the bottom line. To believe that it's concern for us extends past our financial ability to purchase their products is to waste brain cells. I am in agreement with you, Court, as re the engineering cutbacks and defined plan, but these two points are moot if they can't get their financial tit out of the wringer. The biggest disconnect that I see from Harley is their stated desire to pursue the women/minority/younger market vs. the axing of Buell which could have provided entree to, at least, that third factor. The angle re this market is to pursue the Iron 883/Nightster thread which has buoyed the Sportster line. Here's my take on that: These are nothing more than image machines that appeal to the live fast-die young-and leave-a-good-looking-corpse market that will move on when something else presents itself. That is not what you build a future upon. Additionally, those motorcycles have not seen any significant engineering update in at least a decade. This is a dead end. It appears that Harley's strategy is to continue to chase the past. Rather than develop new products, they are concentrating on markets that are evolving into a position that appreciates what they have. Specifically, China and India. What this strategy will do is assure Harley a place in the pantheon of "What Was." I have been told by several people that what's in the pipeline will truly make a difference. And I want to believe this, but I have heard it many times before, and it has NEVER come to pass. Do I sound bitter? You bet, because I am watching a truly legendary company fall all over itself. | ||
| Tpoppa |
From a purely business standpoint, I don't fault HD from distancing themselves from Buell. HD didn't develop any passion or expertise in the sportbike industry and and only small % of their dealers were solidly behind Buell. If they are truly in free fall, then go focus on chrome and leather. What I find puzzling, is that if they would have given Buell away rather than closing them they could have saved themselves the $125 million associated with buying out the Rotax contract, etc. And would have saved 180 jobs in Wisconsin (and probably more jobs with vendors). Regardless of the spin in the press release, that is a very questionable decision. I certainly don't fault John F for that. In fact, I suspect that he was of the few at HD that made EBR a reality. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Tpop.... You and I are puzzled by the same thing. It's one of those moves that raises more questions than it answers. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
again, I blame it on their dealerships not embracing, and slitting their own throats. A strong buell brand, with price point and performance comparable to the big three, would float a lot of dealerships that are now going to tank. They're re-investing themselves into the museums and coffee table books, and nothing else. Yeah, we shoulda sold all our Buells at a loss so that the grateful owners could also not come in for service work and also not buy parts from us too. Oh wait, as it was, that nearly happened anyway. Like the guy we just last week sold an 1125CR to for $7,000 who is complaining because our 1/2 off 1k & 5K service specials will be over before he can put that kind of mileage on, "so he'll have to get them somewhere else". I didn't bother to listen but I can imagine this guy whined about us not having StarBuckies coffee in the plush coffee tabled customer lounge too. That is the kind of buyer attitude, when experienced early in their Buell experience, that turned many a Harley dealer sour on the brand. If I sound bitter, I am just tired of all this dealer bashing as the root cause for the demise of Buell. I read that 250 dealers will go forward giving 7 years of service for Buells. At this stage of the game, why would they do this when there are no longer any new bikes to sell if it were not for a desire to still support the brand and the customers who bought from us? There sure does not look to be any profits to be made on Buell in 2010 and it would be much easier and simpler to have just walked away. Yeah, that sure is a sign of some of those sucky dealers. Thank Dog we are blessed with a client base that is willing to pay a fair price for good service and good products they understand the value of. ~jammer | ||
| Jon |
I think to settle on the fact that this stand up guy is understood to be bound by his master's will is missing the point. The letter is not substantive and is a joke. That is deplorable in this situation. There is a lot of room between bland non-speech and ripping off his shirt, etc. But I do think that the gathering around the faint glow of a notion of a return of Buell is a waste of time. It's over. Buell has been ripped out of the hands and plans of the faithful and it's over. Eventually, if Buell does not immediately resurface, Buellers will buy Triumphs, Ducs, and Beemers, etc. All talk of Buell and Buell forum activity will fade to a whisper. It was the best brand IMO. Maybe Buell can come back quicker if Harley craters. Not quite a rant, more like a disconnected series of complaints. So Reg, what is the industry rumor for the way back for Buell? Will Buell rise to power in the European Union? What is the Luminati's role in all of this?  BTW, hope you are well. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
I am not so quick to place HDFS as an over weight burden on the shoulders of H-D. Where as Honda, Suzuki and BMW saw about 50% less sales in 2008/09, H-D saw only 25% fall off. I think this is in no small part because of a dealers ability to find easily attainable financing for buyers. Credit was tight, for those of you who do not know, and local banks not tied to the big national ones that required bailout funds were not exactly falling all over themselves to loan out to young testosterone laden novice riders wanting to buy 200mph throw away bikes. Plus, in the last two months, half our dozens and dozens of Buell sales were financed by, yup, you guessed it, HDFS with very reasonable terms. And further, I have it from good sources, that HDFS has secured paper for projected sales into 2011. GMAC got into mortgages, subprime ones, and has had to cover countless 0% 60 & 72 month loans on cars that see better than twice the depreciation than a typical Harley. If HDFS had these things in their portfolio I would then agree that it was an anchor around Harley's neck. ~jammer | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
JJ... HDFS, per se, is not the problem. However, the loans necessary to keep it afloat during 09-10 are a huge burden. zample: A $300 million senior unsecured note to Warren Buffet's empire at 15%. That alone is $45M that won't be available for, example, engineering. If I recall correctly, HDI is on the hook for about $1.9B in loans taken as a result of the sales down turn. An interesting effect of the HDFS problem is that auction houses have been flooded with repo'ed Harleys. The up side of this is that savvy dealers have been picking these up at attractive prices. One heartening sign is that this repo supply appears to be normalizing, i.e., repos are decreasing. IF... and this is a biggie... the economy turns around, and HD benefits from it, all should be OK. Harley must make money on the money they borrowed = finance an increasing number of loans thru HDFS. If the market slides further in 2010, servicing this debt will be problematic. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
You're absolutely correct in what you are saying, Reg. However, you are saying it with so much condescension, why? because we live in stupid times and some of you are living proof. |
