| Author | Message | ||
     P_squared |
If you think the Chain of Command for the 3 SEALs needs to remove their craniums from their rectums, you can sign the petition here: http://www.indianadan.com/savetheseals My personal opinion = Do not be surprised if the warriors in our society refuse to answer the call to arms if this proceeds. | ||
| Sifo |
Done! | ||
| Xb12xmike |
I agree 500% | ||
| Kilroy |
done - | ||
| Aeholton |
I find it quite ridiculous that we are bringing these fine servicemen up on charges. This country has gone mad. God help us! | ||
| Damnut |
done!! | ||
| Reepicheep |
I heard a rumor that this prosecution is "payback" from the executive branch to the Navy for the successful mission against the Somali pirates... No evidence, just pure rumor. But I can't trust a mainstream media to properly investigate it... so repeating rumors is about all you can do. | ||
| S1wmike |
done!! | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
Gave him A fat lip!! How do you capture A criminal or fight a war without hurting anybody?? This is so F-ed up it's scary! It brings A freaking tear to my eye to think my son, who is graduating boot camp this week, could go to jail for doing the job he's being trained to do. | ||
| Diablo1 |
If they did nothing wrong, that will come out during the courts martial. I don't understand the mentality that says that the military can do no wrong, yet doesn't trust the military command to do the right thing. Isn't the military command part of the military? For those who don't read history, our US military has tried, convicted and executed our own soldiers for certain crimes during WW2. If you don't want to take orders from superior officers, you shouldn't go into the military. | ||
| Damnut |
Your dollars at work!! http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/10498270/House- takes-step-toward-NCAA-football-playoff | ||
| P_squared |
Diablo1, the reality is that this should have never gotten this far to begin with IMO. IMO, the MOST that should have happened is their CO giving them a good @$$ chewing (provided he believes them to be guilty). It should have NEVER gone to NJP, thereby giving them the option to refuse & request Court Martial. As for the charges, put yourself in their place: 1) They're doing a snatch & grab 2) The Tango's playbook says to claim abuse/bust yourself up 3) A fat lip. Think about that again in context. You're snagging a Tango out of a bad place so you can bring him in. He does something, anything, that can put yer chestnuts in the fire. You convince him IMMEDIATELY that he does ONLY what you tell him to do, when you tell him to do it. This should have NEVER gotten this far. Period. | ||
| P_squared |
Next problem with this whole thing is that if it does go to Court Martial & they are cleared, they will have a stigma to deal with the rest of their careers. If you don't believe that, do some research on SSgt Keeler (USMC) and the year 1998 in Camp Pendleton California. I was deployed with Keeler before that incident. He & I threw a few folks out of moving aircraft together. I’d be interested to hear what he has to say about the career prospects for these three when they’re cleared after a court martial. I have a suspicion his words aren’t fit for polite company. | ||
| Dalton_gang |
Done! | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Done | ||
| Nevrenuf |
also done and will pass this on to others just in case they haven't seen it yet. | ||
| Diablo1 |
I was deployed with Keeler before that incident. He & I threw a few folks out of moving aircraft. Google couldn't find anything on Keeler. To what purpose did you throw folks out of moving aircraft? Who were these folks? By moving, I assume taxiing and not flying.} | ||
| P_squared |
Try looking back in 1998 for news on the incident. Nutshell version is this: Keeler was the Jumpmaster on a training jump in Camp Pendleton for 1st ANGLICO shortly after he’d finished his deployment with the 13th MEU(SOC) where he & I did multiple jumps together as Jumpmasters. 1 of the jumpers in his stick wound up in a small body of water near the DZ & drowned. At the start of the investigation, everyone in the back of the plane said there was a green light, signaling the aircraft was in the correct position to release the jumpers. The aircrew said they never turned on the green light. Keeler was brought up for court martial on charges of dereliction of duty, involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide. He was found not guilty on all charges. IIRC, the air crew was not court martialed. As a member of 1st ANGLICO, being court martialed for a jumper drowning to death when you were the Jumpmaster is a pretty damaging thing. I doubt Keeler ever received a completely fair shake from any commands after that incident. | ||
| Sifo |
To what purpose did you throw folks out of moving aircraft? Who were these folks? Paratroopers? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
He got hit in the lip and the gut? Bunch of idiots, there are worse that happens in the box. Your response to this is going to be that prospects will be shot, killed on sight. There will be no intention of interogating them. Miranda !> WTF?! who are these morons. Miranda is a US law, for US citizens. Pull your freakin head out of your g-damn a$$. Done. Dan Burton gets my vote. | ||
| Geforce |
P_Squared, you and I need to talk jumping someday... You ever do any Helocasting? I assume you did if you wore a set of gold wings. Nice to see a fellow paratrooper on the board. I agree with P-Squared on this as well. This should have been handled "in house". Makes me wonder if it got out and they had no choice but to pursue other actions. I cannot tell you how many times we have handled things in house. That is one of the better points of being in the military. When you step on your #@$% your peers and superiors should be there to get you back in line. To bad for Keeler, that kinda stuff does follow you around for quite a while. I cannot tell you how many times I have been on a jump master team that had to have a little talk with the air crew after the mission about doing their CARP calculations. My first night AJ was on a BN MOUT mission and we did 4 passes in full combat load. 1st pass they "forgot" to turn on the green light. 2nd pass they couldn't get the left paratroop door *my door* open before the 3 minute slow down. 3rd pass they scratched because they couldn't see the drop zone, even though me and the primary JM could see the reference points clearly. They wanted to scratch the 4th pass because we hadn't bought a 4th pass *Fuel costs money*. Luckily my PJ was my CO and he told them the first two passes didn't count because the aircraft had mechanical issues and crew errors. We told them just to put it on the drop heading and turn the light on and we would put the jumpers out when we saw the PPI. They argued about safety and liability, but they didn't realize that everyone on this lift were RT Jumpers *rough terrain parachutists* so they folded and we had a great jump. | ||
| P_squared |
Jumpmaster, Castmaster, HRST Master...the list goes on.  What peeved me about Keeler is that I know he'd never give the "go" if that light wasn't green. During the court martial, he questioned the integrity of the aircrew. He was cleared & the matter was subsequently swept under the rug. | ||
| Tbolt_pilot |
Done, with pleasure. Here's my comments if anyone cares: As an active duty NCO and friend of several Special Operators, this story sickens... no, angers me! You trained them for and expect these men to do extraordinary things under terrible conditions with impossible odds and they do it well. I've gotten worse injuries from a backyard football game than this terrorist received. He should consider himself lucky for only getting a fat lip and a sore gut. I personally would have hog tied him and put him in a burlap sack for the extraction ride. He is obviously dangerous and the first order of business in a grab is to ensure that the target knows just exactly WHO is in charge and that resistance is not in his best interest. Good on those boys! Let them do the job you trained them to do! HOO-RAH! | ||
| Diablo1 |
What peeved me about Keeler is that I know he'd never give the "go" if that light wasn't green. During the court martial, he questioned the integrity of the aircrew. He was cleared & the matter was subsequently swept under the rug. Well someone or something screwed up and a soldier drowned. Three possibilities, the aircrew turned on the light and lied about it, or Keeler made the soldier jump without the light and lied about it, or there was a mechanical problem with the light.} | ||
| Tbolt_pilot |
Just how small was this body of water that the soldier drowned in? Because I talked to a guy who, during a jump, had to avoid power lines by steering into a tree, and subsequently dropped into a pond. He was able to unbuckle his gear and swim out of the pond. | ||
| P_squared |
Well someone or something screwed up and a soldier drowned. (A Marine, not a soldier.) You are correct. Based on my personal experience with Keeler, I rule out the mechanical defect & him being negligent. I also believe the rest of the jumpers who saw the green light. That only leaves the aircrew in my book. Looked at in that light, the command had an "Oh $h!t" moment & decided someone needed to be punished (SSgt or LtCol?). Unfortunately, they attempted to punish the guy (SSgt) who did everything right and had witnesses to corroborate the incident. I Same deal here with the 3 SEALs. They did a snatch & grab of a Tango. He got a fat lip. You don't court martial 3 SEALs for a tango getting a fat lip. If their Chain of Command had a spine, they would dismiss this farce. | ||
| P_squared |
Just how small was this body of water that the soldier drowned in? (Marine, not soldier) It was Pulgas (Lake or Pond?) on Camp Pen IIRC. Not "huge" and we never ran a safety boat in it for jumps on that DZ prior to then (since changed as a result of this incident). | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
I just can't understand this. We are at war, killing people, and them us, and we're worried about a fat lip.. | ||
| Alii1959 |
DONE! | ||
| Kyrocket |
Done... and my shared thoughts. You know, as an average, working class, God fearing American I respect every man and woman who will give their life for their country so that we can work and go to church without persecution. Now I see that three men may be court martialed for doing the job they were trained to do. And the man who was supposedly "roughed up" may have been the one to call for the brutal execution of four Americans who were ultimately beaten, burned, killed and hung from a bridge. It's no wonder people have lost faith in our government to do the right thing. In my opinion in addition to his "fat lip" he should have had both eyes dotted, his nose flattened and stopped short of being knocked into the middle of next week. Thank you Dan for standing up for our military. |
