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Reg_kittrelle
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:19 am: | 
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Jon... I am very well, and hope you are also.
The "industry rumor" is fueled by people like myself: We know just enough to be dangerous, and rant about like a bunch of old ladies at a bingo tournament.
The motorcycle side of me fans a small flame that shines on a hope that Harley has not sold the company because it might resurrect it in the future. I do believe that Buell is worth something, so it is perplexing that HD chose not to sell it. Their "integrated" reasoning is total hogwash.
The practical side of me agrees with you: Buell is toast.
Of greater concern to me is Erik Buell and EBR. I STILL do not see a viable revenue stream. This makes me think that he is receiving assistance from Harley... maybe as part of his, uh, severance package. Unless he can segue into other aspects of motorcycles, I can't see any future focusing on a model that is no longer in production.
I could envision an interesting relationship between EBR and Polaris, however. I imagine, tho, that Harley has him locked up with non-competes... but then |
Reg_kittrelle
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:21 am: |
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"..because we live in stupid times and some of you are living proof."
I love waking up to a good laugh, its starts the day right. Thanx, FvB. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:26 am: |
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I agree with 65%. |
Jon
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:26 am: |
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Reg,
Glad you are well. Your comment about EBR strikes true with me as well. What's the future for this? I don't understand what the path could be for success. The best I can say about all of this is that it is interesting...largely because none of it makes any sense. |
Reg_kittrelle
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:50 am: |
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So, Court...
Let's talk about the 35%. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:19 pm: |
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Of greater concern to me is Erik Buell and EBR. I STILL do not see a viable revenue stream. This makes me think that he is receiving assistance from Harley... maybe as part of his, uh, severance package. Unless he can segue into other aspects of motorcycles, I can't see any future focusing on a model that is no longer in production.
I think that leaves two possibilities, both of which, I would have to assume, Erik is currently planning for:
1. Keep the model(s) in production - either through EBR with the rights obtained directly from Harley by Erik and EBR or through another company such as Polaris or BRP.
2. Start fresh with a new model but existing facility, equipment and racing program. A new model could also be developed in partnership with Polaris or BRP or other company or investors.
I suspect Erik would prefer #1 to have a revenue stream and continue as seamlessly as possible, but I don't see any evidence to suggest he won't continue with #2 if that's his only option.
EBR will be key to either of those 2 options and either of those 2 options will be much more successful with the groundwork EBR will lay.
I don't think Erik is getting direct support from Harley for EBR, but I DO think that the fact they were willing to let him set up EBR shows that they're willing to continue to maintain the value of the Buell assets which indicates to me there is at least some hope that they are considering a future sale.
I believe Harley WILL have to deal with Erik Buell as a competitor at some time in the future and the only question is the exact form that will take and if Harley will make any money out of it.
If Harley has any sense, they'll sell the existing designs (for, at the least the water-cooled bikes) to somebody while those designs still retain some value.
The only logic I can see in not letting anyone have the existing designs is to prevent competition, and, as I've metnioned, I think they're going to have to deal with competition no matter what, so they should at least get something out of it.
(Message edited by elvis on December 12, 2009) |
Indy_bueller
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:23 pm: |
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I'd just like to say one thing, that doesn't have anything to do with the turn this thread has taken.
I've met Flick many times. He's always had a smile and a warm handshake for me. Anyone who has spent even a small amount of time around him knows where his heart is. He's completely enthusiastic about Buell and I'm sure this was probably just as hard or harder for him than any one of us. Remember that the rumor mill says he knew of the impending decision months in advance, was powerless to stop it, and was required to keep his mouth shut. I can't imagine how difficult that must have been.
Having said all that, there is something we need to remember about the Buell faithful that are still employed by the MoCo, guys like Flick. They want to keep their damn jobs and I don't blame them for a hot second. They have to say what they are required to say, regardless of what they really think. I'm sure plenty of people would cheer them all on if they publicly quit and openly decried the decision to close Buell. To those that think that they should: Are you willing to pay their paychecks until they find new work? No? I didn't think so.
We all know the MoCo monitors this website so I'm not going to name any names. But Besides Flick, I can think of at least a half-dozen Buelligans that are still employed by HD and will continue to be for who knows how long. These people don't deserve to be lambasted because they stayed. They instead deserve our sympathy and understanding for what they have had to endure because of all this.
Give'em a break. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:23 pm: |
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I believe Harley WILL have to deal with Erik Buell as a competitor at some time in the future and the only question is the exact form that will take and if Harley will make any money out of it
I dont see the competition aspect of it. Sportbikes and cruisers are worlds apart. |
Rde48
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:36 pm: |
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Any chance at getting a mod to fix the lack of a "K" in the title to this thread? Thank You
The only thing I know for sure is that there is ALOT more to all of this then we will ever know.
Jon is doing what 95% of us would do in his situation, keeping his job. I wouldn't have expected a letter telling me anymore then we already know but at least they know how I as a Buell owner feel about the situation.
Where they go from here is just anyones guess but one thing is for sure, Buell WILL live forever, in my garage! |
Elvis
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:42 pm: |
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I dont see the competition aspect of it. Sportbikes and cruisers are worlds apart.
True, but what other possible rationalization could be used for not selling the Buell rights? At an absolute minimum, I'm sure Erik Buell could scrape together a few million dollars to buy the rights to make the Barracuda and nothing else.
One hope I hold onto is that Harley considers the air-cooled models to be more competition than the water-cooled models and part of their strategy is to dismantle and close out Buell so they can then just sell off that piece (and still claim the reason they couldn't sell "Buell" is that the Buell brand - in its entirety - was actually "too integrated" to sell.)
Call me crazy but I see some hope in some of Harley's actions - such as the efforts and expense they went to to clear specifically the water-cooled models off showroom floors.
I also found it interesting that, in the press release for EBR there was a specific mention of the water-cooled models as being the ones Erik would be supporting.
And the fact that they would even allow Erik to start EBR gives me a lot of hope that they will still consider selling parts of Buell. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:44 pm: |
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Erik Buell Racing will use no of the existing Buell assets owned by HD.
ERB has leased space, simply as a matter of convenience, where Buell was.
Harley-Davidson have not, nor will they, invested $0.01. Certain inventory was purchased.
Shelving is built, stocking and inventory is ongoing.
Dates on the EBR website will be met or bettered. |
Reg_kittrelle
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:49 pm: |
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Which, Court, makes the situation all the more interesting. |
86129squids
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 01:53 pm: |
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Where's the popcorn eating emoticon when I need it?
Gonna be an interesting New Year, youn's... |
Ustorque
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 02:27 pm: |
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Ratbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 03:56 pm: |
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And the fact that they would even allow Erik to start EBR gives me a lot of hope that they will still consider selling parts of Buell.
This is what still gets me. HD didn't LET anyone start EBR. Hell, *I* could have started EBR if I'd wanted to.
Well...aside from my lack of talent, motivation, history, resources, and the fact that "Erik Buell" isn't my name, that is....
I can't wait to see what Erik and his crew come up with...but I really wish we could drop the references to HD "letting" EBR come into existence. It's like saying HD was "letting" Erik design guitars in his free time.
And some of you may wonder "why does this bother the guy?". It bothers me because we need to start thinking of Buell - EBR, whatever nomenclature - as a *standalone* entity. For all intents...let's forget HD exists, at least as far as we think about EBR. Yes, HD played a big part in the history of Buell Motorcycles, Inc., and Buell Motorcycles, Inc. probably wouldn't have gotten where it did without HD. But Buell Motorcycles, Inc. doesn't exist anymore.
The passion still exists.
The man still exists, and I'm sure he's still chock-full of ideas.
The ability still exists.
A very strong core group of employees still exists (I can't wait until COB on the 18th to see what happens!).
But none of it belongs to HD anymore. And as big as HD is/was/may become....EBR doesn't have to ask them for permission to do anything. Just like Honda or Victory or any of the legion of other manufacturers doesn't have to ask HD's permission.
As for a "non-compete"? Well...back to that lack of ability thing I have going on...I don't pretend to know the details, nor do I really care to. It's not my place, nor is it really the place of most of us here on Badweb.
But I'm willing to bet Erik's got it figured out, and that's good enough for me. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 04:56 pm: |
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Rat,
I won't pretend to know any of the details, but it's my belief that EBR will be able to buy and sell parts that were originally designed or specified by "Buell Racing" or Buell and, therefore, those parts were likeley protected by contracts and would prevent them from being bought and resold without permission from Harley (owner of Buell Racing and Buell).
Again, I don't know any of the details, but I'd be willing to bet Harley could have prevented EBR from happening if they chose to. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 10:14 am: |
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Elvis - you're probably right...but my guess is that a man with a 200 year plan probably thought about lots of those things as items were being created in the first place. My bet is, there are plenty of "loopholes" to be taken advantage of.
Case(s) in point: from the EBR catalog, the heading that says they will make programmable ECMs and race exhausts for XB platform bikes.
What's the phrase? "Hope for the best, plan for the worst"?
Somebody was thinking.
Again...pure speculation on my part. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 10:21 am: |
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"Erik Buell Racing will specialize in the supply of race-use-only Buell motorcycle parts and race preparation services for engines and motorcycles, and the building and sale of Buell® 1125R-based race-use-only motorcycles under license from Harley-Davidson."
I don't know how it could be said any clearer. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 01:23 pm: |
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You are correct Ferris. Some of the EBR items are being made and marketed under license.
That doesn't mean the entire COMPANY is under the HD Thumb.
I read your post as two separate sentences, separated by a comma:
"Erik Buell Racing will specialize in the supply of race-use-only Buell motorcycle parts and race preparation services for engines and motorcycles
and this one, which says to me the *motorcycles* are built under license:
and the building and sale of Buell® 1125R-based race-use-only motorcycles under license from Harley-Davidson."
Again...I could be wrong, but that's my read on it. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 01:57 pm: |
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Ratbuell, I agree 100% with you on principle and the last thing I want to do is quibble over details. EBR is a huge first step for Erik to get away from Harley, but, unfortunately, the head of the Harley tick is still under his skin and he needs to extricate it carefully.
For Erik to truly thrive, he can still use some cooperation from Harley over the coming months/years until he truly is completely independent.
I wish it wasn't that way and I wish they would sign the complete rights over to him, but until that happens, I'm at least heartened that the Harley board seems at least willing to give a little bit.
If some level of cooperation and reasonableness from Harley can continue, the future could be very bright.
(Message edited by elvis on December 13, 2009) |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:35 pm: |
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Oh, I also agree. Not-stepping-on-toes is a very important part right now. I just (personally) disagree with the notion that HD is "allowing" EBR to be in business at all, that's all. It may be the case in reality; it may not. I just don't care for the idea. I'd love for Erik to be out from under their thumb and free to do as he sees fit for his motorcycles and his goals, that's all. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:39 pm: |
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Rat, as you stated, EBR is a completely separate company from HD, however; EB wouldn't have much of a race program if he couldn't procure bikes and parts from HD. Few of us, if any, know all the back room details but HD didn't have to license anything to EB. It certainly can't be earning HD any real money - peanuts in the big picture. For all the speculation of internal squabbles between HD and EB, I find it curious HD would agree to such an agreement. There are things we aren't seeing here. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:52 pm: |
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At the risk of this becoming a circular debate...I don't think EBR needs to get many parts from HD, since HD didn't actually make most of the parts anyway. Enkei wheels, Showa suspension, Nissin brakes....contracting involved, sure, but not exactly calling York and saying "I need a case of....".
I think I'm just gonna sit back and patiently await what comes next  |
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