| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
"Well I still find it hard to believe an 1190 will put 185rwhp down. " That is odd coming from an experienced mechanic and performance enthusiast. Box stock out of the crate on pump gas, the 1125R makes 130+RWHP, so roughly a 42% jump to 185RWHP. Increase displacement from 1125cc to 1190cc = +5% Bump rev limit for racing = +7% Adjust cam timing for racing = +5% Revise ignition and EFI (ECM) for racing = +9% Revise exhaust tract for racing = +9% Race prep engine and adjust compression for racing = +9% Use lower viscosity (30W) racing oil = +2% Use racing fuel = +3% Total est. peak HP gain = 49% So 185RWHP in a race prepped 1190cc version of the 1125R seems quite plausible, conservative even. Why would Erik intentionally mislead? The first magazine that gets their hands on an Erik Buell Racing 1190RR will surely be putting it on the dyno as will any racer who purchases one. You must really think that Erik is some kind of dishonest dummy to imagine that he won't produce the performance advertised for his racing machines. Or you are just being extremely rude and insulting. | ||
| Fast1075 |
But wait...I know why the engine cannot produce 185 rwhp...  ... it is because it does not have Weslake or Cosworth heads..(nudge, nudge, wink, wink).... Sorry, couldn't resist a bit of chain yanking....all in good fun  Of course it is possible to produce those kinds of numbers on a race only 1125 BASED engine...lets see...how many KW is 185hp..what is the specific heat content of the fuel...how much fuel air mixture per hour does it take to produce the required BTU...how much rpm does it take to move that volume...what is the thermal efficiency...what is the pumping efficiency...how much frictional loss?....my thumbnail is full...but that is the basic picture.......If it will turn tight enough, move enough air, and not waste too much energy....bingo... | ||
| Dentguy |
"I accept your intent was not trollish Steve. It seemed very strange that you ignored the stats for the NJ races, where the Buell 1125RR entries/racers/team achieved amazing results for a brand new racing program/machine." Thanks for understanding Blake. I did post how many Buells finished in the top ten from NJ in my first post when responding to a top ten comment. But I didn't post the links or the exact finishes and maybe it would have been better if I did. They were great results and shouldn't be ignored. "...Race 1 had 2 Buells in the top ten and race 2 had 1 Buell in the top ten. The Buells and their RIDERS did well." Back to the topic of this thread. Sorry to get off track. | ||
| 2kx1 |
I think for any bike that has only seen competition 3 or 4 times to show up in the top 10 is astounding, I don't care who made it. | ||
| 2kx1 |
Oh and there were no kawasaki's in the top 10. | ||
| Rocketman |
Not being rude at all. I didn't even know until you put a pic up recently Blake, what an 1125RR looked like. In my absence from BadWeB, about two years, I ignored everything Buell except my own, which from time to time I worked on to improve it. I visited the local to me HD Buell dealer maybe three times, to buy clothing. I have not seen an 1125CR either. I did not attend last years London M/C show nor the International one at the NEC. Same this year. So no Buell there for me. I'm sure if you look at your hit counter IP's or whatever it is you do, you'll see I seldom came here as a voyeur either. For me Buells fell off the face of the planet. Much has changed since I returned recently. And I still don't know how much rwhp an 1190 puts down, but I do know this. The Japanese big four are somewhere over 200 crank hp with their full on race superbikes. 180 crank hp is about right for a stock engine from their respective streetbikes - same as run in Superstock. 185rwhp from an 1190 Helicon, in what's supposed to be the best handling bike out there, I have to wonder why the 1190 hasn't won the WSB championship, or better still, why Buell weren't even in any significant Superbike series outside of the adjusted rule AMA which the big guns backed out of. For a company that builds supposedly fantastic racing bikes with their head honcho a race fanatic, I'm staggered this bullshit surrounding Buells dominance as a world beater is still going on, and believed in by many here, when Buell have delivered zilch in the real world of Super Bike racing. Harsh but true. So where is 185rwhp? That's what I wanted to know. And if I'm to believe it's coming to a Buell race bike heading for Europe sometime soon, that I've really got to be ready for. At 185rwhp that kind of Buell should wipe the floor wherever it races if the chassis is that good too. Bring it on. Rocket | ||
| Poppinsexz |
But Rocketman you have forgotten that you are posting on a website full of Buell fanatics. If you think it's BS then why are you here? And I don't mean to be an ass, but if you don't like it, why then read it. | ||
| Froggy |
Thats easy, one, the 1190 hasn't raced yet, hell it didn't even officially exist till a few weeks ago. The race bikes being discussed that have raced are the 1125R and 1125RR. | ||
| Rocketman |
So being one of the few Europeans here I'm not entitled because I ask for clarity regarding a Buell race bike allegedly destined for Europe? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
How does a non existent (yet) 1190 get past homologation? Rocket | ||
| Froggy |
Thats the million dollar question. I am sure Erik has a trick up his sleeve. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Production-based motorcycle, based on the homologated 1125r. Available for sale ("not for street use"). | ||
| Sknight |
If you believe a short stroke 1190 twin can't top 200 HP you're lacking on a few bits of info. It won't be hard to do especially in race trim. | ||
| Rocketman |
Really? The KTM RC8R at 1195cc with race kit, rear wheels a shade under 160hp. Are you aware of the similarity in design of KTM's engine and the Helicon? If KTM is anything to go by........ Rocket | ||
| Blake |
"The KTM RC8R at 1195cc with race kit" Are you trolling or really that ignorant? Seriously! Do you really not understand the difference between a street bike with an exhaust and ECM kit running on pump gas versus a full-on race team prepared professional Superbike burning racing fuel? | ||
| Sknight |
Absolutely. A 2.6" stroke engine has a lot of RPM range left. Another 60HP is pretty easy if you take some streetability out of it.  This 1125R chart, borrowed from MO, shows the TQ and HP bands just starting to drop at 10,250 RPM. That shows the breathing potential of the heads. I promise you a cam swap, different exhaust and ECM map along with a few hard parts like valve springs along with a 12,500 redline will show you 185RWHP or more. | ||
| Tnm2 |
http://www.erikbuellracing.com/race-bike.htm What possible benefit could Erik Buell gain from inflating power output numbers? Conversely, what harm would be done to his new business by inflating power output numbers? It's a silly argument. No way he puts those numbers out there publicly without being prepared to back them up. | ||
| Tom_b |
I'm just wondering what America Honda and other companies are going to build to compete since the AMA is allowing Buell to run this bike as homogalated, the other companies are sure to take advantage of the rule change. I hear Danny Eslick has already signed with richie morris racing for the 10 season to ride a buell | ||
| Tom_b |
Ray Blank for one is anticipating taking advantage of the rule change. In case no one knows who Ray Blank is he is president of America Honda and has already voiced this opinion If mr. buell says his bike will do it.. it will the engine is very capable of doing it (Message edited by tom_b on December 08, 2009) (Message edited by tom_b on December 08, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
There is no rule change. Honda America announced that they have quit ASBK and DSB for 2010. | ||
| Tom_b |
Rule allowance..Sorry. Will see if Honda does for sure stay out, or just coming back with something. | ||
| Blake |
They won't. No factory before Buell has ever offered to all interested pro racers/teams factory superbike racing machines with factory parts support guaranteed all for just $40K. | ||
| Rocketman |
Are you trolling or really that ignorant? Are you aware how close to race spec the RC8R engine is? I'm not, but I'd wager if KTM were hunting 185rwhp they'd be looking at following in Ducati's race steps. Engines requiring rebuild every two meetings. Engines with titanium cases, rods, special cranks, cams, heads, yada yada yada, and Ducati's need to move on to a 1200cc ceiling as costs were spiraling to obtain, never mind sustain, the kind of power they required to keep up with 1000cc fours. I just don't see 185rwhp as being available from a Helicon from a fledgling company with presumably small budget which plan to deliver these bikes for a bargain price. Not trolling. Just looking back at all the other bottomless efforts Buell championed themselves on. This bike isn't gonna run in Europe because I doubt it will exist. As for the expectation of 185rwhp, if it happens it won't fly. Not for very long anyway. The logistics don't add up. Not from money and certainly not from affordable to EBR technology. Of course, I might be wrong, which is why I asked the question in the first place. But it seems to ask here is to always end up in a slanging match because some are over protective to Buell as if they raced the golden egg. And one more thing. Homologation racing doesn't allow capacity increases over the stock displacement of the homologated streetbike. Or at least it didn't last time I looked. I confess I'm no expert in rule reading, bending or manipulating though! Rocket | ||
| Diablo1 |
And one more thing. Homologation racing doesn't allow capacity increases over the stock displacement of the homologated streetbike. Or at least it didn't last time I looked. I confess I'm no expert in rule reading, bending or manipulating though! Rocket You are correct, nothing in WSBK or DMG racing rules currently allows for capacity increases over the homologated bike/engine. However, based on last season's experience, I would not be surprised if DMG does allow the 1190 Buell into ASBK. } | ||
| Diablo1 |
If you believe a short stroke 1190 twin can't top 200 HP you're lacking on a few bits of info. It won't be hard to do especially in race trim. It's not as easy as you claim. If EBR can do it, then they did a fantastic job. Ducati has been working on the development of 1200cc short stroke high output race engines for many years. They claim they are at the end of power development and can't get any more out of the twin. I have seen claims of less than 200HP from the Ducati in WSBK trim - are they true, who knows? It does appear though, that the Aprilia WSBK has more power than the Ducati, based on top speed on the long straights. In any event, the 1190 won't have to compete against WSBK spec engines and power output.} | ||
| Blake |
"Are you aware how close to race spec the RC8R engine is?" I don't know what you mean by "race spec". If you are talking about a professionally prepared superbike class racing engine, then if they are selling it to the public, then hardly close. No factory has EVER sold their factory Superbike racing engines to the general public in anything close to actual racing tune/form. "I just don't see 185rwhp as being available from a Helicon from a fledgling company with presumably small budget which plan to deliver these bikes for a bargain price. Not trolling." So you are calling Erik Buell a liar. What an arrogant, rude, jackass! Diablo1, the Aprilia is a four cylinder 1000cc engine and it appears that it has more power than any of the other competitors except possibly BMW. Any sport bike that can approach anywhere near 200 MPH on a road racing circuit is likely putting down well over 200 RWHP. Is Monza the fastest track in current WSBK competition? "I have seen claims of less than 200HP from the Ducati in WSBK trim - are they true, who knows?" I have seen claims of a lot more then 200HP from the Ducati in WSBK trim - are they true, who knows?" "In any event, the 1190 won't have to compete against WSBK spec engines and power output." You know this how? (Message edited by blake on December 08, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
Further to my previous estimations of race engine performance increasing modifications. If teams can get 125+ RWHP out of Supersport spec 600cc IL4 engine, why is it so difficult to accept 185 RWHP in a Superbike spec 1200cc V-twin? Just factor by rev limit and displacement... 125RWHP * 12,000RPM/16,000RPM * 1190cc/600cc = 125*1.49 = 186 RWHP. (Message edited by blake on December 08, 2009) | ||
| Rick_a |
Well, if history is a lesson, Buell has never embellished any numbers for any bike. If I, as a backyard mechanic can gain ~35% more power from my 1250 Thunderstorm (in a bad state of tune mind you...don't yet have a main jet nearly big enough), I'm pretty confident Buell could handle ~40% in an 1190 Helicon. Nobody sells a street bike with a full race tune...and those that come close are few and far between...and probably not ideal street rides. For example, the one 1098R our shop has seen blew a radiator in traffic recently. Rocket, you are determined to be the eternal Buell pessimist, aye? The only thing Buell lacks is the tremendous funding and big teams the bigger factories have. No doubt they would dominate given that. There's a lot more to it than spec sheets, me thinks. | ||
| Richsm2 |
just ask yourself,what have they-rotax and buell been doing with this engine for the past few years besides detuning for supersport. Also,just what if this engine was DESIGNED (does this sound like EB might do)first for the track and that the development has continued until this day,the development has been paid for just not fully released to the consumer yet but expedited by hd . | ||
| Diablo1 |
"In any event, the 1190 won't have to compete against WSBK spec engines and power output." You know this how? Because it's not homologated for WSBK, and is not a production vehicle, so it can't be homologated for WSBK unless they change their rules or unless Buell goes into production. I don't believe in fairy tales either.} |
