| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
I think I'll try to repeat what usually is an exercise in futility. Never mind for a minute how we got here. Never mind who's fault it is. Now that we are here, what is the optimum way to defeat the enemy, bring peace to the region, not screw our allies, and get our troops home so they can party? Seriously. Stop bashing Bush, or Obama, for just a minute, and try to figure out a good idea. Thank you. | ||
| P_squared |
Jasonnennig, I'm honestly trying to be nice. I've refrained from personally attacking you. If you're as intelligent as you believe yourself to be, and I'm as dumb as you think me to be, then it should be no problem for you to refute my statements without resorting to name calling, shouldn't it? | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh! I think Jason just decided to skip debate and go to personal attack. Do we thank him for conceding he can't think of a good point, or was that too mild to cross the threshold? ( of leftist tantrum alinskyite technique?} Your call, P_squared. | ||
| Reindog |
I said respect for the current President...Last time I looked, Georgy was voted out for his fringe, idiotic beliefs. In my opinion, when your a regular citizen again, and out of office, you are fair game man. So you are telling me that you never, not once, demeaned President Bush while he was in office? Is that what you want us to believe? Do I look like I have the word "Stupid" tattooed on my forehead? I am not buying your argument. You seem to be an excitable boy and I know you went big on Bush somewhere along the line. Even if I did agree, I would claim to be Gorak from the future. More to the point, I come from the day after Obama was impeached back in September 2010 and I would be ready to hurl O-bombs big time. | ||
| Jasonnennig |
TO MAKE IT CLEAR- Bushy's idiotic, fringe party was voted out...(sometimes you really need to spell it out for the mentally challenged)... | ||
| P_squared |
Seriously. Stop bashing Bush, or Obama, for just a minute, and try to figure out a good idea. If someone can explain "Surge & Exit" to me, we might have an answer. Reality though that I believe McChrystal needs two things he won't be given: 1) More Troops (COIN is personnel intensive) 2) More time (18 months ain't enough for COIN) | ||
| Reindog |
TO MAKE IT CLEAR- Bushy's idiotic, fringe party was voted out...(sometimes you really need to spell it out for the mentally challenged)... Yeah, we got an excitable boy in the room. If you calm down and stop insulting people, then people will debate you. Otherwise you are wasting bandwidth as well as other people's time. | ||
| P_squared |
I'm willing to wait for that pending education on how my interpretation of the 1st Amendment is wrong. Until then, don't mind me & my "twisted conclusions" while I'm " blow'n shit up" so " the ones with the training do the thinking..." That's pure comedic gold there I tell ya. | ||
| M2me |
From the Declaration of Independence: P_squared, you're quoting things out of context. The very next sentence reads:
Our creator tosses us into the world naked and helpless. We secure our rights through government, deriving our just powers from the consent of the governed, not from our creator. We the people create this nation, not God. | ||
| Xb12xmike |
Dam.. I need to get more popcorn...  | ||
| P_squared |
Am I? Securing a Right is not the same as being given a Right by your Creator to my way of thinking. Yes, we the people did create this nation, not God. As part of that creation, a fundamental belief was that all men have certain Rights, granted to them by their creator. If Speech (1st Amendment) is not a part of Liberty, then I stand corrected. If however you believe Speech is a part of Liberty, then the Right is there by my creator. It's security is granted by my nation. | ||
| Aesquire |
Gee, chicken & the egg. How about we take these things to be self evident? Argue about deities in another thread. P_squared. Ok, the surge part is a modified Iraq surge strategy. I question it will work, but it does look better than the other option usually cited, a withdraw to the cities to defend a distant, out of the loop central bastion. The "Exit" part, like the delay in approval for the "Surge", is domestic politics to keep the antiwar fringe happy. Others think it a ploy to blame Bush for everything including Obama's future failure, you judge that for yourself. It is IMHO, bad, only because it's announced ahead of time!!! I mean the goal IS to get the Afghani's to take charge of their own liberty. I think that telling them you are leaving on a timetable fails to encourage & accelerate that process. It absolutely encourages the enemy, & aids his planning! In case it's a fraking mystery to anyone, it's bad to tell the enemy what your are going to do. The only exception to that is when you tell them you are going to destroy them unless they surrender, and then promptly do so. | ||
| M2me |
If however you believe Speech is a part of Liberty, then the Right is there by my creator. The 1st Amendment places a restriction on Congress. Congress shall make no law about X. That restriction is there because a government has been instituted among men. The 1st Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with your creator. | ||
| P_squared |
A surge can work, agreed. The problem with making it work though is it requires 2 main ingredients: 1) PEOPLE. Lots of people, and not just "shooters" who are "blow'n shit up." You also need basic infrastructure (utilities, communications, etc.) and something for the young folks who are prime candidates to becoming insurgents to do besides being insurgents. You need our boots to be out in the villages, helping them make their lives better. You need the local government to be in those villages with you making their lives better. 2) TIME. It takes time to build trust. It takes time to change the fundamental beliefs of tribesmen who know AQ/Taliban insurgents will kill them for helping us. A possible means to short circuit the time needed is to "recruit" from "less evil" elements to come to your side, as was done in Irag. This is how the Taliban comes into play in this plan. We did the same thing with some Sunnis IIRC. However, once you tell everyone on when you plan on leaving, the desire to help us in our COIN mission becomes a lot less. Like I said before, I sincerely hope McChrystal can do what needs to be done with the conditions he's been given. | ||
| P_squared |
The 1st Amendment places a restriction on Congress. You're absolutely correct. It places a restriction upon Congress to make no law to interfere with my Right to free speech. So is it the Chicken or the Egg? Is Free Speech a Right endowed upon men by their creator & self evident, the securing of which is ensured via my nation? Or is Free Speech a Right given to me by the Constitution as others have contended? I probably should have done a better job of writing my reply originally.
I would have been correct to respond to That's why so many died to give us all the freedom of speech in America. with something more like this: Our Freedom of Speech was given to us by our Creator, not by their deaths. They died to ensure it's protection. (or something more along those lines) | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Its a bad time to be a twinkly eyed liberal who put totus on their shoulders. They either love him because they have so much emotion and sexual attraction to him or they are starting to see he's just a politician lining the pockets of those who surround him. This is the first time America has elected someone who openly thinks the constitution needs to be fundamentally changed. Not that its worth a whole lot anymore anyway. Thank God we got rid of the patriot act and guantamino. Thank God those greedy bank ceo's got whats coming to them(big bonuses care of taxpayers). Liberals for the people and working man...LOL! Liberals for limousines and private jets, $5000 purses and $500 sneakers. You guys have been stabbed in the back by a man who's so far up a creek I really doubt he calls many of the shots. His first day in office must have made his head spin with his mediocre resume. Luckily the career limosuine liberal politicians were there to show him the ropes. I heard today bawbwa boxer is trying to get the "hackers" prosecuted who unearthed those e-mails about climate studies. Nevermind getting to the truth because that would hurt the grand scheme. If you guys claim Bush and Cheney started a war for money than how in the phunk can you ignore this!? How can you ignore people like van jones, acorn, anita dunn,...its useless to even list half of them. If our economic situation wasnt bad enough, our totus with all of his business and market experience wants to punish us with more tax and penalties for heating our homes, driving our cars, using electricity etc. Of course its no big deal if you live in a pad like al gore or can afford to fly you and your wife to copenhagen in separate jets. They have all the money in the world so they can fly themselves and friends around for wine and cheese get togethers as they plot a way to get more money and power. That hag pelosi sure got quiet awhile back when she was running her mouth about terrorist abuse. Oh my appoligies to the awesome liberals here. I meant displaced combatants. How pathetic.  }} | ||
| Jasonnennig |
Johnny, you got to get your head out of your ASS and stop listening to Jerks like Rush Limbaugh (I'm sorry, I could not put it any other way). I, a person left of center on the spectrum, could say all the same things about those right wing fringe, idiots. Talk about rich, money grubbing slobs- REALLY... | ||
| P_squared |
Some folks just can't hold a polite conversation, can they?
Seems to me he's attempting to attack what he perceives as the "easy" target(s) and retreats to insults/name calling when he can't muster his towering intellect to debate a topic. But that's just me. I'll go back to "blow'n shit up" so "the ones with the training do the thinking..."  | ||
| Blake |
Dismissing the Declaration of Independence, THE legal document which justified and gave birth to our nation has become the favored pastime of atheists and far left state-ist/socialist liberals and other anti-American activists. We can't give any recognition to a higher power else elevating the state above all won't wash nor will the fraud of magically finding within the constitution the "right" to murder unborn babies. These are the people who when presented with "black" will argue that it is really "white". They make up their own false reality and wrap themselves in it so tightly that they truly believe all the lies and nonsense they've invented. Others such as those in the Alinsky adoring crowd are truly nefarious actors. This great nation was founded on the unanimously affirmed belief by its founders that... When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed... Those very "unalienable rights" are more precisely defined by our Constitution and especially its Bill of Rights. If you seek to deny that our "certain inalienable rights" are endowed to us by our Creator/God, then you seek to destroy the very foundation upon which our nation was built, and thus if successful, nothing of the nation will remain legitimate; the nation itself, the constitution including the Bill of Rights will have ZERO standing. Words have specific meaning. A unanimous affirmation of very precisely assembled words and their most deeply conveyed meaning by our nation's founders can only be rejected by those who at their core seek to destroy our nation as we know it, as it was intended by its founders. Those people, whether acting knowingly or ignorantly/foolishly, are my enemy. Some of them are participating here. It's important to me that they understand my deeply and staunchly held view on the issue and of them especially. So whether we are debating respectfully, or meet in violence on some future field of battle in a violent civil war, that is how I view you, should you hold such destructive beliefs, you are the enemy of my nation, and you are my enemy. I wish that you weren't. I wish that you would wise up and stop trying to diminish the very foundation of our great nation. I wish you would accept what is written in plain black and white in the Declaration of Independence and in our Constitution. I feel so strongly because as one of my deerest personal heroes stated so well, we have endured horrendous sacrifice so...
(Message edited by blake on December 04, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
Lincoln's Gettysburg address in its entirety, because it needs to be said again, and again, and again! Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth | ||
| Drkside79 |
You do realize that although he was technically a Republican he was also about as liberal as it got back then. | ||
| Jasonnennig |
Can I get an AMEN...When are you guys going to get to the root of your babbling and start posting bible passages. I also get the feeling you would really like to start telling me I'm going to Hell because I don't think this country was created, for and by all white, Born Again Christians and other such types. You guys can wear out the "cut and paste" buttons all you want on your computers, it's not very convincing to anyone with a realistic view of American history. You can only twist, distort and take out of context information so much before it just blows the mind of most reasonable people...( and PLEASE cut apart and paste what I have just said...You are good at trying to make things read like you would wish they did.) | ||
| P_squared |
So I take that to mean you stand by your assertion that my Rights are given to me by a piece of paper? Yet I have an unrealistic view of American history? Even after you stated, I got news for you, GOD did not give you your rights- men did, in a thing called the constitution. Hmmmm At least you indirectly answered one of my questions: If you're as intelligent as you believe yourself to be, and I'm as dumb as you think me to be, then it should be no problem for you to refute my statements without resorting to name calling, shouldn't it? Answer = No. Ok, you win, you've removed all doubt from my mind that you are an idiot (of the "useful" variety). I'll go back to "blow'n shit up" so "the ones with the training do the thinking..." now. | ||
| Jasonnennig |
BOOM BOOM BOOM- Hey, keep trying man. What your spitting out just keeps getting more ridiculous. And yes, your rights where given to you by a piece of paper...and the brave men who put them there, with the help of those who died for our country...Not GOD- The constitution is not holy inspired text... | ||
| P_squared |
The constitution is not holy inspired text... Never said it was, now did I? What your mind fails to grasp is that a RIGHT is something our founding fathers believed us to be born with, given to us by our creator (notice they didn't use the word God, as befits a nation founded on the belief of religious freedom). They saw these RIGHTS as self evident (meaning any moron who takes the time to think about it would come to the same conclusion). They saw that these RIGHTS required protection (as anyone who's been in a 3rd world thug run country can attest to). As a result of those beliefs, the protection of those RIGHTS was documented in our Constitution, directly specifying the restrictions on our government in relation to those RIGHTS. So now I’m supposed to be swayed by your well thought out & displayed intellect to believe that the beliefs of our Founding Fathers is wrong, and that you are correct that my RIGHTS are given to me by a piece of paper? Remind me again who needs “to spend a few more hours in history class at a university (if you could get in)”? | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Dont lump us all together jason. I cant stand a holy roller preaching at me like I cant stand someone telling me cow farts and escalades are killing our planet. Iam also pro death now as of this most recent election much for the same reasons nancy pelosi is pro death. Nothing stops liberalism like abortion. Maybe we can get the government to fund it? | ||
| Whatever |
I might believe GOD gave us our rights through the constitution if the original intent of our forefathers wasn't to exclude women and african americans as a whole, oh and dare i say justify the genocide of 85% of the indigenous inhabitants of this continent... That may be your god but that is NOT MY GOD. I guess you will argue that didn't really happen... it is just a bunch of stories made up by liberal wing nuts... which i am sure you will label me as... You don't need to travel to another country to see the poverty that exists on most Indian Reservations or in the Deep South... to know equality is not an absolute but an ideal we all strive for. | ||
| Whatever |
I am not trying to argue, I am just saying... it is a good thing that our government allowed Ammendments to the Constitution or I would still be wearing a corset and aspiring to marry a rich man and produce as many offspring as I can. And people would be telling me that is my GOD GIVEN DESTINY. You might think I am out there, but look at the Taliban justifying the exclusion and seculusion of 50% of their population because Allah said so... That is NOT MY GOD, thank you very much... | ||
| P_squared |
Missing the point Charlotte. Is my RIGHT to live given to me by a piece of paper, or is everyone's RIGHT to live a self evident truth that we're all born with? Is my RIGHT to liberty given to me by a piece of paper, or is everyone's RIGHT to liberty another self evident truth, the security of which is dictated by your country of residence? Is my RIGHT to pursue happiness given to me by a piece of paper, or is everyone's RIGHT to pursue happiness another self evident truth, the security of which is again dictated by your country of residence? I have to side with our Founding Fathers in their stated words that these truths are self evident. I hold that speech falls under liberty. Again, a self evident truth and a RIGHT I am born with, not given by a piece of paper. As for the God part, I have purposefully refrained from specifying any specific theologic leaning, as that is a core principle of the founding of this nation, freedom from religious persecution. In relation to women, slaves & indigenous inhabitants of this continent at that time in history, all I can say is I think they did the best they could at that time, which we have continued to improve upon over the years. Fair enough? | ||
| Drkside79 |
That's not my God either Char. |
