| Author | Message | ||
     Diablo1 |
I'm really surprised there are so many here in favor of secret trials. Are you folks Americans or really fascists or communists? Go read some history and learn about Stalin and Hitler and what kind of trials the "enemies of the state" got. Yes, I want public trials so we and the rest of the world can view the evidence and judge their acts, and make sure they get a fair trial and the right outcome. | ||
| Aesquire |
Who's in favor of secret trials? "enemies of the state"??? That's Glen Beck. These are illegal combatants. If you do not understand the distinction, it can be plainly explained. Do you need an explanation? Public trial? or fair trial? Since the President of the U.S. is on record that the "defendant" is guilty & will be fried, the A.G. has admitted that the "defendant" won't be released, even if acquitted, and since the bad guy already requested execution ( that martyr thing with the 72 houris ) and the military tribunal was stopped midstream ( that is a trial, and not secret, either ) by the prez. ...... how freaking fair a trial CAN he get in NYC for goodness sake? Evidence is another issue. We burn the intel network by using it's evidence. That's not just a chain of agents we can no longer use, that is human beings being murdered because their names & addresses go on public view. It's bad enough that Congressmen reveal top secret stuff that gets humans killed to make their ego's feel great, as the press fawns over them, but the discovery process in U.S. civilian courts will screw even more. Then there's the fact that KSM was waterboarded. I think that's torture, and while others may argue, evidence taken under stress, without your lawyer present, isn't good evidence in this country. Thank the Gods. It doesn't even matter that that evidence can't be presented, it's that this guy's rights were violated, so he should get off, if he's tried as a citizen in our courts. http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/the_obamaho lder_bushwhack.html Now, military tribunals are the way you deal with illegal combatants, spies, pirates, and other people who wage war on civilians & refuse to obey the laws of war. Why not regular trials? because a guy caught on the battlefield usually has not been read his miranda rights as the medics staunch his blood from the wounds received & given during his capture. The chain of evidence so carefully preserved by police & lab technicians doesn't happen when you pull out of a burning village with bombs going off and are desperately trying to avoid killing the innocent human shields being used by the bad guys. Pictures don't get taken, and witnesses are either a world away, hostile to you, or dead. This should not be a political issue. Other illegal combatants are being given tribunals by this administration. This is a political show trial, and not KSM's. I honestly don't see a way to convict a guy in NYC federal court, even though he pled guilty, the FIRST time he was brought before a judge ( tribunal ) for trial. I respect & love the concepts of Justice, Law, and Honor that make us NOT a third world shithole. I also invite you to compare the tactics used by the fascists & communists & compare them with the last election & the people in power today, here. ( further education on that matter is also freely available. I suggest you read the book I, Hillary, and Barack all have read. Rules for Radicals by saul Alinsky. It's sorta the bible of those who wish to screw you. ) | ||
| Diablo1 |
I honestly don't see a way to convict a guy in NYC federal court, even though he pled guilty, the FIRST time he was brought before a judge ( tribunal ) for trial. You need a better crystal ball. They've got the evidence to convict, or they wouldn't have made the decision to hold the trial in NY.}} | ||
| M2me |
I'm really surprised there are so many here in favor of secret trials. Are you folks Americans or really fascists or communists? Go read some history and learn about Stalin and Hitler and what kind of trials the "enemies of the state" got. Exactly! Of course, the United States has a long history of using military tribunals to try "unlawful enemy combatants". Well, since 2006 anyway. That's a pretty long history. At least in "post 9/11" terms. America does not do Gulags. We do not do "unlawful enemy combatants". That is not our history. That is not what we stand for. It is not going to be our future. Some people are very pissed off about this fact. To those people I say, "I'm sorry, but I won't let a handful of dead end terrorists destroy this country...and I won't let you destroy it either." | ||
| Reindog |
Exactly! Of course, the United States has a long history of using military tribunals to try "unlawful enemy combatants". Well, since 2006 anyway. That's a pretty long history. At least in "post 9/11" terms. America does not do Gulags. We do not do "unlawful enemy combatants". That is not our history. That is not what we stand for. It is not going to be our future. Some people are very pissed off about this fact. To those people I say, "I'm sorry, but I won't let a handful of dead end terrorists destroy this country...and I won't let you destroy it either." Once again preserving your words for all the world to see the sham that you are. You live in an imaginary September 10, 2001 world, my Socialist friend. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Once again preserving your words for all the world to see the sham that you are. You live in an imaginary September 10, 2001 world, my Socialist friend. By your words, you are living in the imaginary world of Cheney and Bush. Their vision for the US has been rejected by the voters. It's a new day.} | ||
| Aesquire |
They've got the evidence to convict, or they wouldn't have made the decision to hold the trial in NY Evidence that would stand up in a court? Chain of possession not in doubt? You can't use his confession, that's not legal. There is very little doubt in my mind the guy is guilty. Very little. So what? that's not how we do things. He should have trial, and did have one, until Obama stopped it. No, M2me, we Don't do gulags. That's an example of why we are free.( or I was born free, at least, the future is in doubt with Mao loving commissars in this administration ) Nor do we now. We do have a holding facility for illegal combatants. We don't do illegal combatants, they are illegal combatants. They hide behind civilians, use no uniform, murder women and children by preference. They are not soldiers. They do not protect their people. they consider themselves warriors of God. Not the "god is on our side" kind of nice ( if possibly deluded ) soldier for King & Country, or even Truth Justice & the American Way. The everything is acceptable because the priest told me God said kill them all, rape their women & children & enslave the rest for the glory of Allah, type. No matter what bullcrap name this admin. gives them, they have in U.S. law, by over 200 years of precedence, the status of spies, pirates, and saboteurs. http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20091104.html You lack understanding of history. Calling them "undocumented religious workers" doesn't bring back the dead or unrape the children. So, 3 simple questions. Are we at war? When have we ever tried those at war with us as criminals? What was the result? for the lazy, the answers are, Yes. During the Clinton admin. multiple attacks by the enemy emboldened by the political cowardice of that admin. Their vision for the US has been rejected by the voters. It's a new day. A little bit overenthusiastic about what a politician promises you aren't you? Wait & see. Don't be a credulous fool, please. (Message edited by aesquire on November 22, 2009) | ||
| Diablo1 |
A little bit overenthusiastic about what a politician promises you aren't you? Wait & see. Don't be a credulous fool, please. Obama promised not to be Bush and Cheney, and on that he is delivering. Maybe you're one of the folks that think the election will be overturned because he's not a US citizen.}} | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh, no, not that. I saw the snopes copy of the birth announcement. The idiots who didn't even bother to look up that stupid rumor....they are dumber than you.  Sure there was some election fraud, but not enough, I'd bet, to make Obama's election illegitimate, and there is even hope that Acorn will get some comeuppance for their criminal ways, but Obama's election was "legit". ( heck, I bet YOU could have won against McCain, with 600 million in laundered bribe money & a media that had "tingles" when they heard you speak. Do you do teleprompter speeches well? You'd have won. ) "not being Bush" was enough for a Nobel piece prize. ( Bush only freed 50 million people from tyranny, but that is not what the Nobel committee looks for. Obama fits their criteria well.) Not being Bush is not enough to serve us well. Why do you think there is even a chance of a conviction in a fair impartial trial in New York City in the lack of shadow of the missing WTC? | ||
| Reindog |
Bush Derangement Syndrome is a terrible disease that afflicts many. It is debilitating to the point where the rational mind is subjugated to the back of a driverless bus. Won't you give generously to help find a cure for this affliction? Crippled minds are a sad sight and we can end this scourge in our lifetime. Thank you for any amount that you can give no matter how small. --- So a successful platform can be to say what one is not? Sorry, you lose. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Why do you think there is even a chance of a conviction in a fair impartial trial in New York City in the lack of shadow of the missing WTC? Because, 1) I'm certain the prosecutor has plenty of admissible evidence (computer records, wiretap recordings, other witnesses) that wasn't obtained by torture (waterboarding), and 2) is smart enough to exclude you and your fellow travelers from the jury.} | ||
| Aesquire |
...is smart enough to exclude you and your fellow travelers from the jury You mean people who listen to the evidence & determine things based on objective reality? By the way, "fellow traveler" is a phrase most often used to describe communist sympathizers. I most emphatically do not fit in that list. Also see "useful idiot" a lovely phrase used by Stalin to describe fools in Europe & America that advanced the Revolution without any understanding of it's results. I'm not one of those either. Jingoist", yes. Commie loving cretin, no. The problem isn't our criminal justice system, it's that this is a misapplication of it. Since the President has already declared his guilt, what chance of justice? The problem is the evidence, or more specifically, the intel sources. Perhaps only evidence based on already burned or dead sources will be presented. All evidence used by the prosecution must, by law be available for examination by the defense. Are we to give KSM & his lawyers, ( leftist lawyers have a long & well documented history of passing on terrorist instructions & intel from prisoners to their terrorist groups. ) the names of the Pakistani's that betrayed him? Perhaps the entire chain of informants and double agents in the Pakistani military? How nice is it to get all those people murdered because of a show trial. | ||
| Diablo1 |
leftist lawyers have a long & well documented history of passing on terrorist instructions & intel from prisoners to their terrorist groups. And right wing lawyers have a long and well documented history of subverting the rule of law and advising the president that he is above the law or the laws don't apply to him because we are at war or simply because he is the president. Need examples....see Nixon and Bush.}} | ||
| Aesquire |
........see Nixon and Bush True that. Did you know what Watergate was really about? Nixon's lawyer Dean's girlfriend ( he later married her ) was a prostitute in the hooker book that big contributer's got to pick out of at DNC hq at the Watergate. The plumbers were sent in to bug the phone at that desk so they could get dirt on Dem bigwigs. That was really just an excuse. ( heck of a dirty trick though ) The real reason was to take her page out of the book so Dean wouldn't have a personal problem if one of her clients found out. Funny that a President could fall because of his counsel. Lets hope that doesn't happen again. So you have no concerns that a fair trial is unlikely because of remarks from the A.G. & Prez.?? Any Care about those agents & others who help us catch these murderous illegal combatants? | ||
| Aesquire |
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/22/on-ter rorists-justice-recused/ | ||
| Diablo1 |
True that. Did you know what Watergate was really about? Nixon's lawyer Dean's girlfriend ( he later married her ) was a prostitute in the hooker book that big contributer's got to pick out of at DNC hq at the Watergate I didn't know that, because it's not true. Maureen Dean was not a hooker. Geez, are you G. Gordon Liddy? This is obviously historic revisionism to attempt to improve the images of the Nixonian sleazeballs, or at least smear John Dean and Maureen because he helped expose that corrupt administration. }} | ||
| Diablo1 |
So you have no concerns that a fair trial is unlikely because of remarks from the A.G. & Prez.?? Any Care about those agents & others who help us catch these murderous illegal combatants? I believe they are far more likely to get a fair trial in NY than in a military tribunal, and we'll all know it when it's over. Keeping agents safe by not exposing their identity is only important to the wingnuts when a Democrat is president. Cheney and Bush had no problem exposing Valerie Plame when they felt it served their political interests. And no, I don't expect agents to be exposed by the Obama administration.}} | ||
| Fast1075 |
Dayammmm...this is funner n watchin 2 fatties fight over the last pallet o Twinkies at Wally Werld. | ||
| Aesquire |
I could be wrong about Maureen Dean's career. ( and to be nice, he DID marry her ) I got my info from the Dean's lawsuit against the guy who wrote the book exposing Dean as the "mastermind" behind Watergate, while he squealed like a rat to send others to jail. Dean lost the suit. Oh, by the way, it was Armitage in the State Dept. that exposed Plame as the one who got her husband to go to Nigeria to check on the yellow cake Uranium sales to Iraq. Not Bush or the dread Sith Lord Cheney. The CIA determined from Plames hubbies report that Iraq was buying Uranium. We just shipped it to Canada last year, I believe. ( from the stocks captured from Iraq, that Saddam bought from Nigeria, secretly ) It was wrong when wingnuts exposed "secret plans" to invade Iran, that's treason. It was wrong when Armitage exposed Plames id. ( though she may not have been covered under the intel act, it was still wrong. ) It was wrong when Clinton bragged we had Osama's phone tapped, and we listened to him call his mother every week. But he was President, and didn't break the law when he revealed top secret info. The fact that it cost thousands of lives.... still freaking wrong. My opinion of his conscience is not all that good, I admit. So, you don't care who gets murdered if you can stick it to the dreaded Booosh? So sad. ( that's how KSM feels too ) | ||
| Aesquire |
Fast, keep the twinkies. But if it's Chocolate cupcakes? Out of the way tubbo! I suppose I really should apologize, everyone. I didn't see the BDS right away. I thought it was a sane person with differing viewpoints. Something I appreciate. The faith in lawyers that take bribes & work for terrorists ( The A.G. in particular ) protecting America, touching really. G. Gordon? genuine hero, scary oppressor of the masses, that guy. One of my all time favorite lines comes from Mrs. Liddy, who while G.Gordon was in prison for not cooperating, had a home intruder. She pulled a gun, and ordered him to leave. When he continued to advance, she said "watch, children as mommy makes the bad man's head explode" ..... he left quickly. (Message edited by aesquire on November 23, 2009) | ||
| Diablo1 |
I could be wrong about Maureen Dean's career. ( and to be nice, he DID marry her ) I got my info from the Dean's lawsuit against the guy who wrote the book exposing Dean as the "mastermind" behind Watergate, while he squealed like a rat to send others to jail. Dean lost the suit. BS. The Deans did not lose the suit. The case was settled before it went to court, and the Deans were paid an undisclosed sum of money. And who was the tipster that provided the info to the authors of the book? None other than G. Gordon Liddy...your hero. G. Gordon Liddy is about as much of a hero as any number of mobsters who go to jail rather than turn state's evidence on their mafia boss. If he were only born 30 years earlier and lived in Germany, he could have been a great Nazi.}} | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Wow....nazi's, commies, Stalin, Hitler, it all comes out when two people cannot agree...even NIXON!! Wow...very impressive guys. If the deal about the Dean's isn't true, it ought to be, would make a better movie! | ||
| Aesquire |
Well, I just checked Wikipedia, and Diablo1 is right according to them. That's gives him a fair chance of actually being right, and I withdraw my statements, re: John Dean & his lovely wife. Still a criminal ( counsel ) so my agreement with Diablo1 on that subject stands. Crooked lawyers are crooked lawyers, that's bipartisan. ( though it has been some leftist lawyers facilitating evil http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/11/1 7/2009-11-17_conviction_of_disbarred_lawyer_lynne_ stewart_upheld_for_smuggling_messages_to_ja.html ) Nixon of course, will be remembered. For "pardon me Gerry, would you like to be Vice President", "sockit to me?" and As the Vulcans say, "Only Nixon could go to China". It still seems like a show trial. Germany is making noises about withholding evidence since they oppose the death penalty, KSM's lawyers are cranking up the propaganda angle, and I still have little faith in Eric Holder as his law firm has represented terrorists & opposed the military justice systems jurisdiction. Yet others will be tried in tribunals. Seems like it's nasty payback time and not for KSM, but us. | ||
| Aesquire |
2 far more biased views of Lynne Stewart. http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22317 http://www.socialism.com/drupal-6.8/?q=node/496 | ||
| Damnut |
you two should get a room.  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
This is no where near what Stalin would have done. Stalin would have killed them on the street, when in the process of leveling the block. Stalin wouldnt have gone to war in Iraq or Afghanistan either. He would have gone to Saudi, killed the families of the hijackers, slit the throat of the relatives and let them bleed out in the street for public view. Fire bombed their businesses, demolished their homes, seized their assets, drain their accounts and nationalize them. Then he would have bribed/threatened the neighbors to lead him to new 'conspirators' for terror, had they not turned in a proper quota of suspects, he would have randomly selected families based on name, location, or occupation. And killed them. And when he was done, all said there would be 6 million less muslim 'terrorists' left on the planet. Trial? You havent read your history. There would be another 170000 to 250000 that we are waiting for death in a gulag work camp too. And I would bet you that Obama hasnt read the Geneva Convention Law of Land Warfare any more than he plans to read the health care legislation that is coming to his desk. | ||
| Mikej |
I think the screenplay is already written, they're just setting up the stage and procurring the props and selecting the cast members. Anyway, pinging off of some links above, what are some thoughts on these books? Have any of you read them? Does the content of them play out in the current chain of events, in your opinion? Reville For Radicals, Saul Alinsky, pub'd 1989 Rules For Radicals, Saul Alinsky, pub'd 1989 (might be the same books, or not?) The Activist's Handbook, Saul Alinsky (?), pub'd 2001 Liberal Fascism, Jonah Goldberg, pub'd 2008 | ||
| Fast1075 |
Slicker...I like your no BS way of looking at reality...that is a serious compliment. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Its what Stalin did. He was the most brutal in his homeland of Georgia. The only ones that got any reprive were 'academics' that were put to work in the propoganda machine of press, film, radio or art. And only as long as those forms supported his ends. Its a long standing tradition. Just recently with the terrorist attack at the Moscow Bolshoi theater in 2002, muslim terrorist held the theater with suicide bombs... the spec forces gassed the theater, went in tapped all the unconscious 'radicals' with kill shots, identified them, arrested their families, and levelled their houses, and their families business. two dozen civilians died during the theater incident from leathal gas sideaffects. | ||
| Aesquire |
That pub date on "Rules" must be wrong. Hillary did her thesis on it & I read it in high school. Let me check Amazon....Ok, 1971 for the hardcover. I haven't read the others, but have read excerpts of "Liberal Fascism". I mostly but not totally agree with Goldberg. I think he cherry picks a bit. I read "rules" on the advice of the Communist party Of America, while researching politics back in 1974 or so. I wrote & asked for info. They were happy to help a budding young revolutionary. They also endorsed William Clinton for President, were asked NOT to endorse Hillary, and, if I recall, did endorse & still support B.H.Obama. I recommend the book. It tells you how to lie, intimidate, and cheat your way to power on the inside. It's as close to the bible as these people have. If I remember, it's dedicated to Satan. |
