| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
So how is an insurance company supposed to stay in business if it has to accept all pre-existing conditions? I could in theory save myself a bundle of money by going un-insured, only to purchase insurance when I have the need for insurance. It's just like asking and auto insurer to fix a car that was wrecked before you got your insurance. | ||
| Geforce |
Why not conduct a very expensive experiment? People who voted for this type of change should be on this new plan. The rest of us can go for whatever crap the Republicans put out. Whatever one works best... buy it. | ||
| Mikej |
1. What will my premiums be under the half-passed legislation if it fully passes? I have not heard one word about that amount. 2. Why was it decided to make it a crime to not have coverage? What is the charge, what is the penalty, is possible jail time included in the penalty, can one become a felon simply for not having or being able to afford coverage? 3. There are reports that the legislation has built-in mechanisms to force out private healthcare insurance companies. 4. And just why exactly is the President pushing so hard to get this passed quickly. It is almost as if he doesn't want to give the citizens of this country time to read what is actually contained in the legislation. 5. If it is "for the children" then why don't they simply offer infant and childhood healthcare and limit it to that. 6. I don't currently have the time to read the just recently released 2,000 page copy of it. But maybe I'll try to find a source to download it from. Does anyone have a link to an on-line copy of the legislation available for download? (Message edited by mikej on November 08, 2009) | ||
| Sifo |
1. What will my premiums be under the half-passed legislation if it fully passes? I have not heard one word about that amount. 2. Why was it decided to make it a crime to not have coverage? What is the charge, what is the penalty, is possible jail time included in the penalty, can one become a felon simply for not having or being able to afford coverage? Looks like the premium for the required coverage will be about $15,000 per year. Penalties for not being able to afford $15,000 per year are up to 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. Sure that all makes perfect sense. http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/Doc umentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583 EDIT: Before this gets blasted as Republican spin on a Republican web site, they site the sections of the bill that define the penalties and the $15K number is from the CBO. (Message edited by SIFO on November 08, 2009) | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I don't know what is the biggest scam in America, the Health Care Industry or the Insurance Industry. It's got to be one or the other. We need to completely overhaul both industries to correct these large scams that we have! Bring on the health care bill, at least that's a start! | ||
| Mikej |
Sifo, re: pre-existing condition. If I got injured or got an illness while under a company healthplan 15 years ago, and for a variety of reasons have had to change jobs several times, or even if I still worked at the same company but during the 15 years the company plan changed insurance providers several times, then if I had something go wrong today that could be considered related somehow to the 15 year old event or illness then who do you think I should submit the claim to for coverage? Should my current carrier foot the bill? Should the carrier of 15 years ago get the bill? Or due to the time span do all carriers get off the hook? And what about genetic defects and deformaties? Those are considered by some as pre-existing at the time of conception prior to any coverage, do all those cases get denied as well for coverage? I've got stuff to do today so maybe I'll check back later to see if anyone can answer any of my questions. Have a nice day, tomorrow the weather may and probably will be different. Maybe I should get a flu shot today, or a swine flu shot. Wait, can't, they ran out and I'm not in a high risk group so I couldn't get one anyway. Government run healthcare, I can hardly wait. -- to wait. -- and be denied. It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood. | ||
| Froggy |
I did donate it, I am 23 years old, and the SS fund will be bone dry before I get married and/or have a kid. | ||
| Mikej |
I'll simply state that I'll let my vote do my talking come election time. Good day. (Message edited by mikej on November 08, 2009) | ||
| Sifo |
If I got injured or got an illness while under a company healthplan 15 years ago, and for a variety of reasons have had to change jobs several times, or even if I still worked at the same company but during the 15 years the company plan changed insurance providers several times, then if I had something go wrong today that could be considered related somehow to the 15 year old event or illness then who do you think I should submit the claim to for coverage? Should my current carrier foot the bill? Should the carrier of 15 years ago get the bill? Or due to the time span do all carriers get off the hook? Difficult to answer that without knowing the specifics. Group health plans offer at work typically accept preexisting conditions (if you take the insurance when it is initially offered, such as at the beginning of employment). Buying insurance on your own it is much harder to cover preexisting conditions. It is not a perfect system by any stretch, but I doubt we will do better with a completely new system that is thrown together by a single political party in a matter of days. Bottom line is you need to know the specifics of the condition and the restrictions in the policy. My point on this though is that you can't fix this part of the problem by simply passing a law saying that preexisting conditions must be covered. It's childish to believe that forcing insurers to cover preexisting conditions that insurance wont become even more unaffordable. I would guess that this is part of the reason that the CBO is estimating that the insurance will cost about $15K per year. | ||
| Sifo |
I'll let my vote do my talking come election time. And that's why they are in such a rush to get this done before the next elections. | ||
| Joebuell |
Pay no attention to the naked emperor, let's argue about the colors of his beautiful coat !!!!! Does anyone not care that this piece of shit, overly complex bill was rammed through at the midnight hour without any public review (which was promised). you fools who are all for it, have no clue what is lurking in those 2000 pages. NONE!. All we know for sure is that it will cost more money than we have to spend. This sneaky afterhours bullshit in congress has to stop. If it is such a glowing piece of legislation, it should stand on it's own merits and be placed on the web for the country to view. Instead all we get is a "trust me, this will be good for you" and folks are lapping it up like lil excited puppy dogs. I wan't rainbows and bunny rabbits too. But let's get a grip people. If is truly worth the cost it would not have to be rammed through under a cloak of darkness. | ||
| Sifo |
It was also promised that it would be a bi-partisan bill. So many promises to break, so little time. Is government funded abortion in this bill? How about the death counseling? | ||
| Poppinsexz |
Just another step to socialism. All liberals should be happy we're getting there as fast as we can | ||
| M2me |
EDIT: Before this gets blasted as Republican spin on a Republican web site, they site the sections of the bill that define the penalties and the $15K number is from the CBO. Nope! They do not cite sections of the health care bill, they cite sections of the IRS Tax Code. Under the health care bill if you do not maintain health coverage you are required to pay a tax that is equal to the lesser of (a) the national average premium for single or family coverage or (b) 2.5 percent of your adjusted gross income. Let's say your AGI is $50,000 and you do not maintain health insurance coverage. You would have to pay an additional income tax of $1,250, not $15,000. What if you refuse to pay this tax? You would be subject to penalties and criminal conviction, just as you are today for any type of tax evasion. The penalties and convictions that they cite have nothing to do with the health care bill, they are part of the existing IRS Tax Code. It would be helpful to read the entire letter that they cherry picked the quotes from: Letter | ||
| M2me |
Does anyone not care that this piece of shit, overly complex bill was rammed through at the midnight hour without any public review (which was promised). you fools who are all for it, have no clue what is lurking in those 2000 pages. NONE!. All we know for sure is that it will cost more money than we have to spend. What about all the town hall meetings that took place in the summer? Health care reform has been talked about and debated in this country since Teddy Roosevelt was President. A one hundred year debate was getting kind of ridiculous. Oh, and here is some light reading for you. Enjoy! HR3962 | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't know what is the biggest scam in America, the Health Care Industry or the Insurance Industry. Neither. It's the tort system and the Federal Government. Remove those two, and the medical and insurance systems work quite nicely. | ||
| Sifo |
What about all the town hall meetings that took place in the summer? Health care reform has been talked about and debated in this country since Teddy Roosevelt was President. A one hundred year debate was getting kind of ridiculous. Yep, debated and defeated time after time. It is getting kind of ridiculous. Why does it keep coming back? Now it's being forced down our throats even though most people don't want it. Dick Durban from my gloriously liberal state wouldn't even have any town hall meetings this August. He just doesn't care what the people think. Ridiculous is right! | ||
| Gohot |
so now you go to jail, three strikes your out, cant own guns, a fellon, while these god dam illegals come and get all our stuff with a blessing. time to revolt. | ||
| Imonabuss |
How many people have read Obama’s books? How many people have focused on the radicals he has put in his administration? WAKE UP AMERICA!! PS The cost is a lot higher than $15,000 if you are in a higher tax bracket because you will pay taxes on “unapproved” medical coverage insurance and any treatments they may deem to be unnecessary or uneconomic, meaning if they decide that spending $50,000 dollars to help you live another 3 years may be uneconomic you are a dead bird!!!! PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats’ Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail Friday, November 06, 2009 Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years. In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: “This is the ultimate example of the Democrats’ command-and-control style of governing – buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.” Key excerpts from the JCT letter appear below: “H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1] - - - - - - - - - - “If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2] - - - - - - - - - - “Criminal penalties Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual: • Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year. • Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3] When confronted with this same issue during its consideration of a similar individual mandate tax, the Senate Finance Committee worked on a bipartisan basis to include language in its bill that shielded Americans from civil and criminal penalties. The Pelosi bill, however, contains no similar language protecting American citizens from civil and criminal tax penalties that could include a $250,000 fine and five years in jail. “The Senate Finance Committee had the good sense to eliminate the extreme penalty of incarceration. Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. Fortunately, Republicans have an alternative that will lower health insurance costs without raising taxes or cutting Medicare,” said Camp. According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker’s bill would cost $15,000 in 2016. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
How many people think it is a bad thing that millions of children who were not covered will finally get health care coverage they need Show me the dying children !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where are they? I agree the system could use some tweaking but throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the answer. Besides, social security and medicare have trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities. Shouldn't we tackle those issues BEFORE we take on new financial burdens? | ||
| Sifo |
How in the hell does this bill provide basic affordable medicine for the poor? I guess if you are too poor to cough up $15K for insurance you go to jail and get heal care in prison. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
The poor get it for free - courtesy of YOU | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I find it funny (ironic and sad, not ha-ha) that this thing passed on the 102 anniversary of the Bolshevik Red Oktobpe Revolution. Yes Comrade, welcome to the new Union of Socialist States of America. You say you want a revolution?... Hell you elected the guy. (pajorative you, not individual you, as I know nobody in my house did) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I would love to see the states come back and throw this whole thing out  Why .... At least in Washington (and I am betting in every other state of the union) The plan is illegal. RCW 48.43.510 No policy or plan shall be sold, offered or enforced with out proper notification of policy guidelines, formularies, exclusions and disclosure of patient responsibilities. All premium measures must be full disclosed and available at time of issue or consideration; required to be provided by written request. For those of you that hate insurance... the Senate is about to break a very big rule; you are about to be sold a bill of goods, with no disclosure of costs, rights, limitations, exclusions or eligibility nor do you have the right of recision (unlike every other policy out there) They are also throwing out the morbidity charts, so a 40 yo Fatty Fatty Bo Fatty with a previous heart attack, high blood pressure, type II diabetes will have the same premium as a healthy non smoker 25 year old with no previous health issues. (there is a reason you charge more for people that use the system more; apparently the govt doesnt understand that) Enjoy the 'Change', you voted for it. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I think we will also see another round of Article 1, Section 8 lawsuits: Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes; To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures; To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States; To establish post offices and post roads; To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries; To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court; To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations; To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water; To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; To provide and maintain a navy; To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces; To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof. Not to mention 10th Amendment lawsuits from the states. Even if this passes the Senate, which I don't believe it will, it ain't over by a long shot. | ||
| Court |
What confuses me is why the unions are behind this. I've had I.B.E.W insurance . . well since it paid my folks' doctor bills when I was born. It, and I **assume** most union plans are similar . . is INCREDIBLE insurance. If this rediculous bill passes I'm loosing nearly ALL my insurance, will have . . just like the rest of you . . the bare bones government plan and it'll cost more. Seems unwise. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I think this might address part of the reason the Unions are for the bill: Healthcare Bill Includes $10 Billion Earmarked For Union Retirees Looks like the Unions are looking out for their own interests at the cost of their union members. The UAW is responsible for 30-40% of the VEBA created. Would be nice for Uncle Sam to contribute a quarter to half of the contribution for the UAW. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I havent seen the docs yet (I bet neither have the legislators) but you will find a whole slew of parties exempting themselves from it. Starting with the legislators, Government workers, military, unions, and I am betting that you will find that their plans are not taxed as 'Cadillac' plans either. If they give an exclusion for clergy, you are going to see a plethora of people getting ordained over the interwebs Where is my conscientious objector clause? | ||
| M2me |
If this rediculous bill passes I'm loosing nearly ALL my insurance, will have . . just like the rest of you . . the bare bones government plan and it'll cost more. Why will you lose your insurance? There is nothing in the bill that will make anyone lose their current insurance. BTW, my brother is the Business Manager for IBEW Local 160. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Why will you lose your insurance? There is nothing in the bill that will make anyone lose their current insurance. You won't lose it. The companies that offer it will simply go out of business. Kinda the same thing. |
