| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
Am I missing something here? What does the 1125 range share with Harley models, and other than the motor and some necessary ancillaries, what does the XB range share with Harleys? This makes me wonder if the actual physicals of a Buell motorcycle is really that integrated into the HD bloodline. Who's to say an XB can't be built using a new V twin engine? Are there not companies like S&S that could have a bolt in motor fit an XB chassis? How difficult can it be to build a Buell without a Harley owned engine? Surely the production facility of Buell motorcycles is nothing more than a building where parts are assembled, and weeding out the Harley parts would have a Buell separated from this so called integration HD speaks of as the preventing factor of selling the brand. So Buells could in theory be built anywhere without a HD owned engine. Is this the future? Nah, I gotta be missin summat  Rocket | ||
| Methed |
That's what I've been thinking, Rocket. Why not any other engine? There are plenty of other bikes with almost identically sized engines, or even aftermarket engine manufacturers, which could seemingly be squeezed into the same X-Blade frame without too much shoehorning or modification. Welcome back, btw. | ||
| Teddagreek |
Replace the lump and keep things rolling... S&S motor would be great........ | ||
| Josh_ |
Buell has no distribution network, customer service, marketing, dealerships, financing, etc as all that is done by Harley. Now why that means they can't be spun off is beyond me. Maybe to a potential investor the patents + designs + building, but lacking a method of finding or selling to a customer are not worth anywhere near what HD would want out of them. ie MV Agusta is a complete stand-alone company and HD can get (most) of their $$ out of it. Buell on the other hand is 1/2 (or less) of a company and thus maybe not worth nearly what HD would want? Or, HD is planning to resurrect them in limited number (ala CVO) in the future after the current recession is over... | ||
| Josh_ |
Also, HD sold Buell engines when they were a stand-alone company before, I doubt they would say no in the future? | ||
| Teddagreek |
why make another deal with the devil... | ||
| Aptbldr |
XB is two motorcycles: chassis & power-train. What else would it be, given its history (Sporty engine = plan B)? Daydream project: XB chassis + Suzuki TL1000R power-train. | ||
| Guell |
can you say 100" s&s xb, i would def buy one. | ||
| Doerman |
My understanding is that the design, sourcing and manufacturing is uniquely Buell. The marketing, distribution and dealer network belongs to HD. | ||
| Teddagreek |
It's been mentioned before the sporty motor wasn't the first choice or even the second for the XB.... Or something like that.... | ||
| Midknyte |
HD sold Buell engines when they were a stand-alone company before Yeah, but wasn't that the batch of engines that were originally intended for an HD bike that was shelved? Correct me if I'm wrong... | ||
| Hughlysses |
S&S's new-design "X-Wedge" engine is pretty cool, but it's not unit construction (it has a separate transmission like a big twin). Maybe they have a unit construction variant on the drawing board. It does seem like S&S would be a perfect partner for a new Buell venture IF he wants to continue to build bikes with air-cooled engines. | ||
| Josh_ |
The first 50 were from the XR1000, some straight from HD, some from dealer spare parts inventory. But the RR1200, RS1200 and RSS1200 engines were all bought from HD. | ||
| Roadcouch98 |
An S&S 100" powered S-1 sounds very nice. I have a Stage II Nallin 1200 kit in mine and it is very Impressive. I can only imagine how that 100" runs. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I like this engine (S&S X-Wedge) a lot:  Basically S&S started out with a clean sheet of paper and designed an air-cooled V-twin to avoid all the problems they've encountered with Harley-derived V-twins: 56 degree V, 3 belt driven cams, wedge shaped combustion chambers, 1 piece forged steel crank, plain bearings, conventional 2-piece rods (no knife & fork), 110 to 130 cubic inches. Cycle World did an article on it a couple of years ago and said S&S was considering a unit construction variant. I think this would make a pretty cool next-generation air-cooled XB powerplant. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I liken the separation of Buell from HD as the separation of conjoined twins sharing a kidney, liver, and heart. Unless you find a replacement for these organs, the separated twin is DOA. I sincerely hope we can find donor organs. Preferably those of Kings, Titans, and Greek Gods. It's also, shipping, billing, accounting, financial reporting, legal, payroll, human resources, in addition to R&D, parts sourcing, assembly, race support, marketing, sales and service. Any of the missing "organs" could be fatal to the twin. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"Am I missing something here? What does the 1125 range share with Harley models, and other than the motor and some necessary ancillaries, what does the XB range share with Harleys?" Rocket, Unfortunately I fear the question is not; What Harley DNA has been incorporated into Buell, but what Buell DNA has been incorporated into Harley? Do you see the dilemma there? Welcome back. G | ||
| Just_ziptab |
what Buell DNA has been incorporated into Harley? Wouldn't that be a pisser if h-d suddenly came out with a 450(?) dirt bike? | ||
| Venom5sc |
You guys have got me thinking... Buell has always used Harley engines until the Rotax engine came along correct? Harley comes out with there water cooled engine in the v-rod with minimal results. Buell never adopted that motor in their bikes and instead designs their own. After years of running XB models with Harley engines Buell goes on to be successful with the Rotax engine (not the Harley engine) and wins the AMA title. Could Harley be afraid that the recent success of the Rotax engine leave the final Harley piece of the Buell puzzle out? If the XB engines are the only thing left Harley in a Buell, now what? Buell, a part of the Harley company, needed to remove all Harley pieces to be successful in the racing world! In Harley's eyes, how does that look? | ||
| Midknyte |
I liken the separation of Buell from HD as the separation of conjoined twins sharing a kidney, liver, and heart... ...but not a brain  | ||
| J2blue |
I know I am only adding to the blow it out your @!! speculation, BUT... why not let Erik go back to the barn days? I mean, who needs all the overhead that being conjoined to Harley entails? For that matter, why bother with dealerships for a while. The economy is going to take much longer to recover before the sportsbike segment of motorcycle sales can recover. That could provide time to work out contracts with multiple partners to grow the production and sales for later years. | ||
| Rocketman |
As I see the recent history, it is Harley running Buell engines. Not that this has anything to do with my thoughts. At least not anything to do in the hardware sense that is. But do not Sportsters use XB engines which are Buells design? The V Rod engine is again a Buell design. The Helicon is Buell / Rotax. In my eyes the only thing Harley about the above is the ownership. So if Harley 'own' the motors, then so what. As for the rolling chassis' of the air cooled bikes, they could be assembled from components just as is now could they not? Sourcing a motor and designing it into the chassis would be the task. As for the logistics of paperwork and distribution etc. Those are just hurdles to jump over in time. If there's an East Troy somewhere assembling Buells am I not right in thinking there's a huge market for a few thousand a year units? Taking nothing away from the XB motors, but would the air cooled bikes not be even more attractive with a high end 'after market' type engine? I imagine there are two scenarios. Would Erik want to, and have Harley nailed him down to a no compete type contract? Rocket | ||
| Macdiver |
My opinion is that the too integrated line is just an excuse. The real reason for closing Buell is for the tax credit and short term stock gain. Keeping Buell open does not show action to wall street. Selling Buell would generate more income and create more tax liability. Closing Buell gives a tax write off and shows action to Wall Street. Wall Street always loves layoffs and plant closings. I don't really understand that philosophy. HD and Buell sales are down due to the economy. More layoffs and plant closings just provides more people who can not buy stuff keeping the poor economy poor. You would think that Wall Street would punish layoffs and closings by dropping the price not rewarding it. | ||
| Mndwgz |
I read somewhere that the sportster lump and the XB engines only share 3 common parts. Is that correct and which three parts? | ||
| Rocketman |
Crankcase, cylinders, heads? Is it not just the bolt ins - bolt ons that differ for each application / model? Rocket | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I'd LOVE to see an S&S powered XB ala Wakan. My fear is that it would double the price. Imagine the popularity of the retro fit kit. I agree that the hurdles are surmountable. | ||
| Cowboy |
There is a 100 inch S&S avail available for the tubers but damn it is High$$$$just bolt in. | ||
| Slaughter |
Like Josh said ^ Buell is integrated INTO: Dealer network H-D net Financing Vehicle distribution Parts distribution Sales networks Staffing Training Advertising Legal Accounting? Procurement? I'm certain there are other areas in which Buell is integrated into HD. These have nothing to do with having parts in common. Think of the "borg" - think assimilation, not integration. Resistance is futile... you will be assimilated. (Message edited by slaughter on October 24, 2009) | ||
| Vampress |
I liken the separation of Buell from HD as the separation of conjoined twins sharing a kidney, liver, and heart. From what I can tell the heart belonged to Erik and the bigger twin was restricting the bloodflow to it. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"Am I missing something here? " I don't think so  The more I think about it, the more I read about it, the more angry I get at H-D for planning to shut down Buell instead of sell them . It seems more like a strategy AMF would have had! Too hard to sell? Easier to shut down an innovative, forward thinking factory, cancel supply contracts in U.S. and overseas, pay out Rotax, and show 180 employees the door? I know there's a lot more to it than that, but really H-D, as my old chemistry teacher would say, "Must try harder". (Ducati was split out of Cagiva. Ford is managing to sell Jaguar. BMW bought the Rover group then managed to sell Rover to one group, Land Rover to Ford, and kept Mini.) On a more level headed note... Macdiver is on the right track I think. I read somewhere on BadWeb a theory that if H-D shuts down Buell now they can write off shut down costs on tax this year, then they can sell Buell assets (machinery etc) next year, so income doesn't show 'til next year. "I read somewhere that the sportster lump and the XB engines only share 3 common parts. Is that correct and which three parts?" I thought there'd be more than 3 parts in common just from fasteners and bolts, but I believe that (someone correct me if I'm totally off base) when Buell developed the XB, they went one direction, H-D and the Sportster followed a different development path. Eg the cams in the XB motor spin the opposite direction, crankcases are different, heads are different etc. With the '08 XB motor bottom end changes they got even more different. I'm not even sure if XB heads will go onto a late Sporty motor. If S&S can build the X-Wedge, surely they could build something that fits an XB chassis. Hmmm... XBRR hybrid anyone? |
