| Author | Message | ||
     Mattwhite |
I think if their is any way possible Buell will be racing Superbike next year The 1125RR was made for the superbike race. Cory West had top-ten finishes both days riding for Erik's team on their first weekend racing the 1125RR. I think it's a safe bet they'll be back next year. During the pit-walk I heard Erik say something about being down 20hp. Maybe they're working on something to address that. | ||
| Borrowedbike |
Superbike. I'd love to see a Buell even qualify! It'd kill all the whining and the nay saying. I'm convinced the bike Buell is meant to be can win, it just needs funded, and I think every sale gets us closer! | ||
| Svh |
I can get past the IL4 structure quite easily. What I can't get past is Buell's heavyweight taking on everyone else's middleweight/lightweight. I know the rules are there to allow them into the class but they should be in Superbike. I hope they get the whole 1125RR mess cleaned up and can go have fun racing against the big boys. DMG is to blame for that mess from what I understand so I hope they explained it better to Yamaha, Suzuki and Ducati so they don't flee American racing like Honda has. I don't want it to be a NASCAR type spectacle with all riders essentially on the same machine. | ||
| Crackhead |
when the productions numbers for Buell increase, i can see having 2 different motors. This allowing for a middleweight and a heavy weight bikes. until then the $ is not there for 2 different bikes. i think a lot of outsiders don't realize the size difference between the japs and Buell. (Message edited by crackhead on October 07, 2009) | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Superbike. I'd love to see a Buell even qualify!  | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Ferris- I never knew Porsche made a straight six. Well, it's a flat six but the point I was making is that displacement doesn't always equal increased horsepower. In the example I gave, the Porsche 3.6 produces more horsepower than a stock 350. | ||
| S1wmike |
I can get past the IL4 structure quite easily. What I can't get past is Buell's heavyweight taking on everyone else's middleweight/lightweight. I know the rules are there to allow them into the class but they should be in Superbike. I hope they get the whole 1125RR mess cleaned up and can go have fun racing against the big boys. DMG is to blame for that mess from what I understand so I hope they explained it better to Yamaha, Suzuki and Ducati so they don't flee American racing like Honda has. I don't want it to be a NASCAR type spectacle with all riders essentially on the same machine. I talked with several of the RMR/Geico crew while at V.I.R and had some candid conversation about the 1125 in DSB and the equality of racing. Outside of WSBK this was the most tightly run championships as far as points goes. Some may say it was the most tightly raced series. Buell came ready for the new season the big four just kinda discounted Buell and were not prepared for the new competition. The bikes eligible for DSB the Big 4 600s, Aprillia RSV 1000, Triumph 675 Daytona, Ducati 848 and Buell 1125R. If Buell was such a dominant force the podium would have been stacked three full of Buell riders. If you watched the racing instead bitching and moaning you would have seen a mixture of tracks that favored both the small bikes as well as favoring the Buells and very good racing. I bet 2010 will be different now since Danny has awoken a sleeping giant(s). Can't wait til the new season starts.} (Message edited by S1wmike on October 07, 2009) | ||
| Court |
>>>Can't wait til the new season starts. I can't either . . . it's going to be exciting. | ||
| Svh |
S1wmike- Who is bitchin and moanin? Feel free to come over to my house you will find EVERY AMA Daytona Sportbike/Superbike, WSB, MotoGP and Isle of Mann 2009 races on my DVR and all have been watched at least once. The competition was great that is not what my "complaint" is about. The rules are there to allow them to race in the Daytona Sportbike class but I don't think they should be there nor should they want to be there. Buells top bike should not be put against other manufacturers lightweights. Not sure what it proved other than Eslick beat the 600's and one well ridden 1000. The 1125RR fiasco is what I hope gets straightened out so we can have some good racing there in Superbike with many manufacturers. According to Jon Ulrich when Erik asked about getting parts homologated for Superbike DMG told him they would prefer he made a whole bike for the class and that was not what he wanted to do. It was clearly outside the rules as many have posted but allowed to run. I am not a Buell hater by any means but there are facts that show it was/is not legal according to DMG's shifting rules. A couple of months ago Erik Buell told me that he wanted to homologate a bunch of racing parts for the 1125R and start racing it seriously in the AMA American Superbike class. The problem, he told me, was that AMA Pro officials told him that they would only approve the parts if Buell put them on a bike and sold it as a complete, ready to go motorcycle, in essence a racing-only model or version of the 1125R. I didn’t think much about it, and didn’t consult the rulebook at the time. But as it turns out now, there is no reasonable interpretation of the rulebook that allows for homologation of a racing-only model or version of a motorcycle for production-based AMA Pro competition. Which means that AMA Pro officials either didn’t read their own rulebook before deciding to homologate the Buell 1125RR, or chose to ignore it. The Buell in question made its debut at Mid-Ohio this weekend, the paddock in an uproar and Erik Buell being vilified for doing something AMA officials told him to do, which is opposite of what he wanted to do in the first place. That is taken from this article: http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=3 7389 | ||
| Koz5150 |
Back on topic. 1098R vs 1125rr Well if I had money to burn like that I would sure take the faster bike that was actually street legal. For that matter if you really want to make the comparison why not pit the 1125cr against the naked Duc. I am a tuber guy. I bought my bike knowing it was a Sportster (at least what the Sportster should have evolved to). However I don't understand why Buell continues to run against 600s and then claim victory? I have met Erik Buell and think he is a cool guy, but come on does that really sound right? To me the victory is as shallow as Barry Bonds home run record. | ||
| Koz5150 |
BTW check out the Nov issue of Motorcyclist, I am not the only one who thinks like this. | ||
| M2nc |
Svh to your Corvette vs Miata comment... I would modify that to Corvette against Lotus Elise. The Lotus has even a smaller engine than the Miata, but if the track does not have a long enough straight, the Corvette will not stand a chance. That is a better comparison. One with two wheels is a comparison Motorcyclist did at Streets of Willow with two 600s (CBR600RR, ZX-6R) two 1000s (GSX-R1000, YZF-R1) and one 1198. Both 600s turned faster lap times than the 1000s. On that track the bigger bikes did not have a long enough straightaway to counter the lighter 600s quicker handling. I think that is a "fiasco". Here are two UJM middle weights (you called them light weights, but motorcycles with engine size between 500-750 are Middle Weights) beat two heavy weights and we all are told that can not happen stock bike against stock bike. There is a "fiasco" you need to expose. As for 1125RR the real "fiasco" is that Ducati and Honda were allowed to change pistons but no one made a stink? Well Mladin did after the season was over, but why listen to him. Why is it only a "fiasco" when Buell does it? Yamaha and Suzuki have to run stock internals, but its okay for Ducati and Honda to change parts without a "fiasco". Does not make much sense to me. DSB was close racing because weight was controlling the racing. You could have Mladin on his 1000 race in the DSB class if you put him on the same tires and add weight. The reality is the 1125R in stock form has 20+ less horsepower than most 1000s. So where can it race? You could put a hood over your head and ignore all the measures auto racing series have done to equal up different cars, or you can put different bikes in the same series and restrict modifications of larger bikes and allow more modifications and allow less weight for smaller bikes. Personally I believe that rules in DSB do need to be adjusted so the 600s have a closer straight line performance. I would hope they would allow the 600s more modifications in lieu of restricting the 1125R. If they would apply the same rules as the Superbikes for the 600s and 848, and let the 1000+ v-twins run stock engines, you would be pretty close. | ||
| Anonymous |
Koz, There certainly is a lot of ignorance out there. A 1098R street bike will not touch the 1125RR. Pegram's bike had a slight advantage, but of course it costs much more than a 1098R. And anyone who says the bikes Suzuki and Yamaha are racing are just stock street bikes is either ignorant or lying. The changes on them are significant and cost more than the 1125RR when all done. Taylor Knapp had all the available goodies on his Suzuki, including a full works Yosh motor, which totalled up to a bucket of money, yet his bike was not equivalent to the factory Suzukis. He rode both and he preferred the 1125RR. All the vitriol on chat pages is just pure ignorant hate fueled by journalists paid by the Japanese marketing and PR budget. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
pure ignorant hate Sums it up very well. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I don't want it to be a NASCAR type spectacle with all riders essentially on the same machine. Then you should LOVE DSB. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
thanks for posting Anomy! Makes sense to me! | ||
| Elvis |
I think some of the real, amazing facts may be being lost in all the political BS of last season. A year ago, I was arguing with people who believed that Buell could never be competitive until they adopt traditional brakes and traditional frame and many even felt they needed an inline-4. But here's the 1125RR, still not developed to its potential and it's running right with THE UNDISPUTED BEST V-TWIN EVER MADE. Sure, we can't buy it . . . yet, but that's probably a good thing. Ducati has been building toward the 1098R for the past 40 years. Give Buell a little bit of development time before they give us an even better street version. If the Buell can run with the top bikes going while giving up 20 HP, what happens when they find a way to massage a few more HP out of the engine? Saying: "The Ducati is still a better bike." is really missing the point. A few years ago, Buell wasn't even close to Ducati's top bikes. Last year they were maybe at 80%. Now they're at 99%. So we can either fixate on that 1% or say . . . I wonder where Buell will be a couple years from now? From an historical perspective, the New Jersey results for the 1125RR are absolutely amazing. | ||
| Elvis |
Another way to put some perspective on this is to consider two hypothetical tasks and which of those two tasks would be easier to accomplish: Task 1: On a very limited budget, create a race bike that can compete with the top bikes in the world. Keep in mind that your competition: a. Are MUCH larger than you and have MUCH more money. b. Have been racing and refining their bikes at the top levels for the past 20+ years. c. Have teams all over the world with big-budget sponsors and top riders who are providing feedback and performing their own development work to help the broad effort. or Task 2: Put headlights on that bike and get EPA certification for it. | ||
| Spatten1 |
There is one victory for Buell that is going unnoticed: The bike is finishing all of the races. When the fairing broke at Daytona I figured it was par for the course. I've seen consistent DNFs with Harleys and Buells since the beginning of the Harley Superbike program. The fans had come to expect them to break during the race. Now at least the public sees that the 1125 runs hard for an entire race. That really is a big deal for the sportbike buying public. The 1125 is not considered a POS for that very reason. Many years' reputation for unreliability were probably erased in one season. It is a real victory for Buell. | ||
| Koz5150 |
I am no race rules book expert but rather the average motorcycle rider who looks at things the way the common everyday Joe does. When you tell me a bike with 1125cc's beat a bike with 600cc's it looks like a huge mismatch. If you then try to explain to me that they are equal it comes across as the technology using 1125cc's is only half as good as the dude who built a bike with 600cc's. So if that is the case does that mean Buell would have to build a bike with 2000cc's to compete with the big 4 liter bikes? Also, Why does it seem like every review I read even when compared to other v-twin the Buell is down on power?  Excuses do not = sales All that being said, I think that Buell makes a decent street bike (that is why I have happily owned one since 2002 with no plans to replace it) but I don't believe the engine technology is up to par with the rest of the motorcycle world when it comes to racing. (Message edited by koz5150 on October 08, 2009) | ||
| Nik |
I would modify that to Corvette against Lotus Elise. The Lotus has even a smaller engine than the Miata, but if the track does not have a long enough straight, the Corvette will not stand a chance. Corvette Z06 and Lotus Elise are both classed in SCCA Solo SuperStock. They're pretty evenly matched depending on the course. Has nothing to do with the "length of the straight"; 'Vettes have no problem turning. The Corvettes have the advantage on tighter courses because they have the torque to power out of all the turns, but the Elise has the advantage in more open courses where they can maintain more momentum. Not much whining there either. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Fuel in frame, oil in swingarm, ZTL brakes, under-bike exhaust..... Buell can do it. Besides that, we're America and we kick azz. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
If you then try to explain to me that they are equal it comes across as the technology using 1125cc's is only half as good as the dude who built a bike with 600cc's. A stock 1125r will blow the doors off a stock 600cc bike. DSB 600s are the finest that Japanese can produce. The Buell was largely stock in term of the motor. The Buell weighs significantly more than the 600s which plays major roles in tire wear and handling (among other things.) Really, the 1125r fall right in the middle between a 600cc and 1000cc in terms of performance. This is the reason it doesn't fall naturally into either "class" of racing--hence Daytona SPORT Bike. | ||
| Chadhargis |
One interesting thing to note is longevity. If a 1198cc Ducati makes 141hp at the rear wheel and a 1125cc Buell makes 121, that's a big HP difference and it leads me to believe the Buell has a more linear power band and might offer better reliability. I can tell you that I don't want for any more power out of the 1125 for the street. On the track, maybe, but not on the street. It's too early to tell how long the 1125 motor will go without cracking the engine open. Time will tell. | ||
| Koz5150 |
The chart from above was against a true factory 1098cc engine now offered in their naked bike. Here are the numbers for the street version 1198. Note it is included in the literbike shootout. Why wouldn't Buell be included? Well it just doesn't match up in this class, performance wise that is. Instead it competes against 600's at the track.  A stock 1125r will blow the doors off a stock 600cc bike. Really? shouldn't it with a 525cc larger engine? | ||
| Elvis |
Koz, I'm not really sure what your point is, but your charts are all showing that the Buell is seriously down on power against the Ducati. Yet the point of this thread is to compare the 1098R to the 1125RR. And head to head, the 1125RR showed itself to be very competitive with the 1098R in NJ. And since we know (or strongly suspect) the 1125RR has less power than the 1098R and more room to improve, we should see the 1125RR close the power gap as it's developed. Which is a pretty exciting idea. I'm not sure if that's the point you're trying to illustrate, but it's the point anyone who stops to think about it will take away. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Here are my points 1. The 1098s (which is 1198cc's) is a better buy due to the fact that it is street legal and available to anyone willing to lay down the cash (the Buell requires a racing license) 2. Buell's claim of victory in the race series appears shallow since the 1125RR uses an oversized intake box and cooling airducts, chain drive, and modified swingarm not offered on the street version which is against technically against the rules. The 525cc advantage is embaressing. 3. Whinning about writers being biased on Buell due to payoffs is a cheap copout. If the street legal 1125r was such agreat bike why is it so far down on power to the 1198cc stock Ducati? 121hp vs. 147hp 4. If Buell want's to be serious about racing and it's credability in the raceworld, then build a racebike that competes at the highest level with bikes of similar displacement. 5. They should change the Company catchphrase to "Buell: Bikes built for the race track with Engines built for commuting" or how about "Buell: everything you want in a sportbike (except the horsepower and torque)" Again, I am not a Buell hater, but the data doesn't lie. Buell is not up to par with the rest of the motorcycle world. | ||
| Smokescreen |
CHASSIS Frame Tubular steel Trellis frame in ALS 450 Wheelbase 1430mm / 56.3in Rake 24,5° Front suspension Ohlins 43mm fully adjustable upside-down fork with TiN Front wheel travel 120mm / 4.7in Front brake 2 x 330mm semi-floating discs, radially mounted Brembo Monobloc calipers 4-piston, 2-pad. Front wheel 5-spoke in forged light alloy 3.50 x 17 Front tyre 120/70 ZR17 Rear suspension Progressive linkage with fully adjustable Ohlins TTXR monoshock with top-out spring. Aluminium single-sided swingarm Rear wheel travel 127mm / 5in Rear brake 245mm disc, 2-piston caliper Rear wheel 5-spoke forged light alloy 6.00 x 17 Rear tyre 190/55 ZR17 Fuel tank capacity 15.5L (of which 4L reserve) / 4.1 US gal (of which 1 US gal reserve) Weight * 165 kg / 364 lb Seat height 820mm / 32.2in Instruments Digital MotoGP derived unit with displays for: Speedometer, rev counter, lap times, time, air temp, coolant temp, battery voltage, A trips, fuel reserve trip, DTC level selected (if activated) scheduled maintenance. Warning lights for: Neutral, turn s Warranty 2 years unlimited mileage Body colours (frame/wheels) Red (Red / Racing Gold) Versions Dual seat * = The weight excludes battery, lubricants and, where applicable, cooling liquid. ENGINE Type L-Twin cylinder, 4 valve per cylinder Desmodromic, liquid cooled Displacement 1198.4cc Bore x Stroke 106 x 67.9mm Compression Ratio 12.8:1 Power* 180hp - 132.4kw @ 9750rpm Torque* 99.1lb-ft 134Nm @ 7750rpm Fuel injection Marelli electronic fuel injection, elliptical throttle bodies. Exhaust Lightweight 2-1-2 system with catalytic converter and 2 lambda probes. Twin stainless steel and titanium mufflers Emissions Euro3 TRANSMISSION Gearbox 6 speed Ratios 1st 37/15, 2nd 30/17, 3rd 27/20, 4th 24/22, 5th 23/24, 6th 22/25 Primary drive Straight cut gears, Ratio 1.84:1 Final drive Chain; Front sprocket 15; Rear sprocket 38 Clutch Dry multiplate with hydraulic control slipper clutch * = Data calculated using an inertia dynamometer | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Really? shouldn't it with a 525cc larger engine? Dunno. My truck has a 5,400cc engine yet I bet my 1125r (or even your M2) can out perform it. Displacement is NOT the absolute in terms of power. I will be the first to admit the 4 cylinder platform is unmatched when it comes to pure HP. Is that what you want to hear? You win! | ||
| Blake |
If idiots get to dictate tech rules, then we will end up with a displacement only set of rules. If knowledgeable people are able to create good rules to achieve parity in racing among diverse configurations of machines, they will take into account a heck of a lot more than just engine displacement. Some of the other factors affecting the level of performance available from a street bike turned racing machine like for DSB:
Dynamic displacement factored by volumetric efficiency constant in the racing power-band is a fair way to compare the relative performance of two engine, then multiply that by a relative weight factor. The truth is that the Japanese 600cc repli-racers are designed from scratch as racing machines. They SUCK as street bikes. They are gutless until the revs climb to over 7,000 rpm. Cruising at 4K rpm, whack open the throttle to accelerate, you are met with a pathetic baaaaaaaaaaaaa, nothing. What they are designed from the very start for is racing, so they have cams that work exceptionally well at high revs, and an engine that is designed for peak HP and high revs. They are loss leaders for Japan Inc. The factories lose money building them. They only build them in order to show good on the track, that's it. If you want Buell, a company of 200 to build a loss leader 600cc IL4 just to please all the ignorant idiots who think that displacement is the only measure by which to compare different engines, well, that is just plain goofy. There is something fishy about those MO dyno plots. I've never seen an 1125 make so poor a showing, and I don't recall seeing the 1098 so do well. The fact that the 1125R has won races competing against the 1200cc Ducati 1098R tends to contradict the contentions of the spec sheet racers. |
