| Author | Message | ||
     Tootal |
The problem with two tier wages is that as soon as there are more less paid individuals than grandfathered individuals the company will want to take pay away from the older workers. The younger ones won't go to bat for you when they're making less. You didn't stand up for them so why should they care if you loose money! Two tier systems suck and are a part of the slow demise of the worker and the middle class. | ||
| Buellshyter |
But union members said they felt the contract represented a step backward because it contained a two-tier wage system they said would penalize new hires. In the bigger scheme of things two-tier hiring is more detrimental to the U.S. worker then rising healthcare costs or anything else. There has been for sometime a concerted effort to lower the overall wages of American workers while maintaining or increasing costs for goods and services. Generally, the lowering of wages has come at the expense of "new" hires. Senior or long term employees have seen pay increases slow to a pace just under inflation. While this may not be evident to a large majority of workers at this time over the long haul it will become self-evident as purchasing power is eroded. | ||
| Paw |
This is all i'm saying Unions are becoming a dying breed. I had a $21 an hour job with great benefit 6 years ago and lost it. Due to foreign competition and the greed of the older union workers, because they knew they would not get laid of so they let the young guy lose their jobs and they still did not get what they wanted they lost benefits and jobs went out the door but the old guys stayed, some unity there huh. I could go on for hours typing about my situation but screw that. I now have a non union job in a small shop making a hand full of dollars more than i was in the union shop the benefits are not to bad. And the owner/boss knows me by name not number. I use to be union but found out how $hitty and greedy the older guys are. I will never go back to the brotherhood again wait i mean the cut throat hood. | ||
| Davegess |
We need to export our unions (and our environmental regs) to China along with our manufacturing jobs. That would level the playing field. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Are you aware that some models of Toyota, Mazda, Isuzu, Saab and Mitsubishi are union made? I'm sure any of those companies don't have the massive health care costs to pay for workers that don't even work there anymore that the Big 3 do. (not to mention Saab is owned by GM...) | ||
| Old_man |
Whether you belong to a union or not.- You have benefited from unions.- Whether you know it or not. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Whether you belong to a union or not.- You have benefited from unions.- Whether you know it or not. I will agree that, in the past, unions were necessary and did some good. But, in many cases they have outlived their usefulness. Today, with a few exceptions, unions are bad for America and Americans (especially the UAW). Our (USA) economy has shifted from local to national to global. The union model just does not fit very well in a global economy, especially in the auto industry. (Message edited by tpoppa on February 06, 2007) | ||
| Ratyson |
The company said its proposal included annual wage increases of 4 percent over three years. But part of the increase depended on the union agreeing to contribute toward health insurance coverage; unionized employees currently pay no premium. It also would have doubled the company's 401(k) retirement plan contributions and created a two-tier wage system under which new hires would be paid less than current ones. After reading what the strike seems to be about (if what was posted here is really what the issue is), really strengthens my dislike for unionized labor. Ok.. I can understand a bit of heartburn over a 2 tiered pay scale. However, if looked at in a positive direction, it could be a motivator to do better work and stay longer in order to increase your earnings. Now, on the point of medical and retirement... Before I put my 2 cents in, I want to make sure I understand. As I read it, these people do not currently have to pay any premiums for their health insurance. Correct? I wonder what the wages are per hour? (for the average assembler) I have no idea what they earn. I see that a new hire (pre-2007) makes $20.87/hour. Which equates to a little over $40k/year. That isn't that much less than what I earned as an entry level ENGINEER WITH A 4 YEAR DEGREE. Also, did I also read that the company would be doubling it's 401k contributions? Anyone in the know want to provide some information?} (Message edited by ratyson on February 06, 2007) | ||
| Buellshyter |
We need to export our unions (and our environmental regs) to China along with our manufacturing jobs. That would level the playing field. Yea, that makes sense. Why don't we bring back child labor, honor killing and debtors prisons while we are at it. | ||
| Chellem |
I think alot of what people are saying about unions outliving their usefullness stems from the fact that things like the above, child labor, debtors prison, well, honor killing not so much, but most of the things that unions were developed to correct are now regulated by state and federal governing bodies. There's a minimum wage, child labor is WELL regulated, trust me, and if people have a legitimate beef with their employers, or were wrongly terminated, most companies have HR departments, there's always the wage and hour board, or, at worst, getting a lawyer and suing based on laws that were created, thanks to unions' history. But now that the laws are in place, and there are legal options for employees, unions may not be AS necessary as they were when they were begun. And some unions have a reputation, right or wrong, as taking unfair advanatage of their percieved power. And, with the allegations of corruption very high up, many have also lost credibility with the very people they are supposed to be protecting. I don't know much about unions from personal experience, but I have to contribute to my health care. No one negotiates on my behalf, and that's OK with me. And $20+ an hour as a STARTING wage doesn't sound that bad, if I read that right. Aren't they risking alienating the very people they are supposed to represent? | ||
| Buellshyter |
I mentioned child labor, etc in an exaggerated tone to bring attention to the ridiculous notion of exporting environmental regulations to China. However, it's this exact kind of warped thinking that, if we just let everyone do as they please without regulation we all will be better off, is the reason why unions still have a place for some - albeit not everyone. Furthermore, labor laws are not set in stone. They can be abolished at any time. There are efforts to do away with overtime pay and mandatory lunch breaks. I, like Chellem, work for a small company directly for the owners and although I still maintain my union card, I earn above and beyond. If my union were to disappear tomorrow my circumstance would not change but I know it would have detrimental effects on my industry as a whole. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
When I was a truck driver, I worked for Schneider National and CCX, both non-Union companies, and I did pretty well. While I drove for SNI, I delivered parts to Chrysler plants all over Michigan and Illinois. I'll never forget the time one guy told he made $28/hour to pump four gallons of gas into each truck as it passed by on the line. Thats all he did. I also sold Fords for a year. It boggled my mind that Ford employees from the local plant would come in, brag that they were on the clock,(while at the dealership shopping for new cars) complain that they were only going to make $132k that year, and then bitch that the rebates on F-150's were too low. I'm sure they wonder why the plant is being relocated to Mexico. A friend of mines father worked at that plant too. He worked as a fire guard, third shift. He would clock in, go to the bar until it closed, go home for a few hours sleep then go back in and clock out. Yes, Unions did their job and did it well many years ago. But you just cant tell me they havent abused thier power and driven alot of companies into the dirt, like Ford and CEX. How well did Overnites strike go? (Message edited by Indy_Bueller on February 08, 2007) | ||
| Old_man |
The abuses mentioned are not because of unions, but of poor management. | ||
| Buellshyter |
A friend of mines father worked at that plant too. He worked as a fire guard, third shift. He would clock in, go to the bar until it closed, go home for a few hours sleep then go back in and clock out. I don't think being in a union gets you a pass to steal. At least not in the one's I'm familiar with. | ||
| Iamike |
I don't think being in a union gets you a pass to steal. At least not in the one's I'm familiar with. Only when the union insists that the company not fire the guy when he is caught. I have seen that before. | ||
| Tpoppa |
The abuses mentioned are not because of unions, but of poor management. Wrong. There are many examples like that. My buddy left Ford after getting tired of the 'old timers' telling him to slow down. By the way, he was working a line with 12 other workers (union stipulation) that could easily be run by 5. So...you are saying that union abuses are managements fault? Seriously? I happen to believe that adults should be accountable for their own actions. | ||
| Old_man |
So...you are saying that union abuses are managements fault? The abuses mentioned had nothing to do with the union.--just individuals not putting in their 8 hours work. It is the responsibility of managers to make sure people do what they are hired to do. I was in management for 33 years. | ||
| Tunes |
I've been a union and a non-union employee. I prefer to be non-union. True story: I friend of mine was and still is working at Budweiser (union shop) though I don't understand why. He (still) works 3rd shift clearing jams on the auto-labeler, making big money. He was caught sleeping in the warehouse in his "custom" cardboard box complete with mattress, small fridge (to keep his "Buds" cold), and radio. He bragged about doing his clock in, drink a few Buds, sleep, clock out routine. Company management (non-union) tried to fire him. The union protected his sorry butt from getting fired. He was suspended for 1 week without pay and was back on the job the next week. He's still there, 15 yrs later... with a new cardboard box, fridge, and raise. | ||
| M2nc |
I've been a union and a non-union employee. I prefer to be non-union. I think this is the case for most Americans. We all have seen the abuses of Unions, some want to blame management but the truth is a lot of workers like to come in and do their job but get told to slow down, "don't show the boss what we really can do." reaction from co-workers. When the laws and Unions have the company's hands tied, eventually they take their business overseas. The truth is for every Union that has saved a lazy ass' job, they have lost ten American Jobs to overseas workers. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Status Update? Is the strike still going on? Wondering if I need to plan a summer vacation from the dealership. Cant sell bikes, If I am not getting bikes delivered. Damn trickle down affect. | ||
| Tunes |
I pay $17.00 a week for my health care insurance. Family plan is double... and I still have to co-pay ($20) everytime I see the doc. It's a way of life in non-union land. The way I look at it, at least I have insurance. Some people can't afford and don't have insurance. I feel for them. Health care is very expensive. All union and non-union bashing aside.... I hope HD and the union can come to terms. EVERYONE suffers when a strike occurs. 20+ years ago, I was a union employee when my plant went on strike. The company offered a 13% raise, the union wanted 15%. They voted to strike (I didn't). Management immediately promoted several of us to "non-union" technical types and back we went... thru the picket line. Talk about tough to deal with. I had a family to feed (her 2 kids) and care for, a mortgage to pay... roof over their heads and all that. The wife was just outa the hospital and couldn't work. If I didn't take the promotion, I was gonna be fired. The union was unable (and unwilling) to negotiate on my behalf cause they weren't talking to the company cause they were on strike. It hurt me to the core. After 6 months, the union went back to work for 10%. The company eventually sent all the labor/work overseas. The entire episode still haunts me. I vowed NEVER to be put in such a position again. I hate talking about this. I need a stiff drink. So, I say again. I hope HD and the union can come to terms. EVERYONE suffers when a strike occurs. | ||
| Two_buells |
updates here http://www.iamlocal-175.org/ http://www.ydr.com/ | ||
| Chellem |
Not taking one side or the other necessarily, but that union website is a bit heavy on the rhetoric, no? And no one seems to want to mention actual facts. I guess the negotiations are behind doors or something? I've read the H-D press releases, and I've visited this site listed above, and I STILL don't really know the facts. So I suppose I'll hold my opinions, since I don't have the facts. Does anyone have any ACTUAL facts, with no spin, not biased by either side? | ||
| Dragon_slayer |
Long live the biggest, most powerful union in the world. The union of states, better known as THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! That's right all you union haters, you are all paying members of the biggest union in the world. Have you ever thought of why the President gives a state of the UNION address? Btw, I am honored that Plumbers/Pipefitters Local 189 took me in when the nonunion company I worked for for 22 years laid me off with many others because "We are going in a different direction." Yes, nonunion types, it does happen on your side too, "Outsourcing." Btw, I come in and work around a lot of you in the many companies who require my skills and trade. Those are tools all around me. I notice the games you are playing on your PC and the many toys on your desk. So I get tired of your Union workers do not work hard BS. You could not do my job and when I retire, you better hope that some young person is willing to take my place. Or you will be working in the cold and heat and using outdoor toilets. And we all know how much you hate that! | ||
| Tpoppa |
Long live the biggest, most powerful union in the world. The union of states, better known as THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! That's right all you union haters, you are all paying members of the biggest union in the world. Have you ever thought of why the President gives a state of the UNION address? Do you really believe that a Union of States is the same thing as a Labor Union? You are obviously highly informed on this subject.  | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
Ya the only problem is when us nonunion people get caught playing our games and skipping out on work, we get FIRED!!! and replaced by someone that will work. Yes there are quite a few lazy people in this world in both unions and nonunion companies I don't think anyone will argue with that. The only problem that the managers face with unions is having their hands tied so they cannot properly manage. Kind of funny huh, if I don't work hard/smart and show why I am an asset to my company they can get rid of me but if I was in a union that really wouldn't matter as long as I showed up and just did something I couldn't be fired. If I wasn't meeting goals I would just say I am doing my best. I firmly believe unions bread laziness, I'm not saying everyone is lazy but it seems like most of us that have been in a union agree that people get pissed when you work hard and raise the bar. Plus I don't like my merit increases to depend on a group, I kind of enjoy my hard work being recognized for what it is MINE. Yes I do the same amount of work that took three people to do 10 years ago but when given the proper tools it is very doable in a 40 to 45 hour work week. From what I have seen when you are a valuable asset to a company they will do what they have to to keep you around. I just hope this doesn't backfire on the York employees. There is nothing stopping HD from relocating the plant or expanding operations in WI where the union has already accepted the new contract. What will the union leader or president of the above site say then, I just hope his words don't cost the jobs of everyone because I know he will still get a fat pay check. He says he is not very proud of the union leaders in WI that saw the writing on the wall and accepted, they did save everyone's job at least which is what the unions main job is. Seems to me like this union is kind of gambling with everyone of the York employee's lives. Next question, if the health care cost, decrease in starting pay for all new hires and horrible yearly cost of living increase is not the main reason of the strike then what is? Seems like everyone says these are not the facts or the main reason for the strike. So what is? Will the employee's not be able to afford their current lifestyle with this new contract, no. What will happen is their taxable earnings will be reduced to pay for their health care costs ($35 to $80 a paycheck) and a deductible will be added ($10 to $30). New employee's will start out at around $18 an hour ($37k a year before overtime). Looks like a good deal to me but then again what they are loosing is free health care (something most American's do not have) and new hires will not start at around $46k. Just seems like a good deal to me. Oh ya I almost forgot the yearly pay increase of what 3% or 4% on top of everything. For new hires that is around $1300 a year so when they retire in 30 years they will be making around $$75k a year, not bad. | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
Oh ya, if HD does decide to close the plant more then likely the employee's with 15 plus years of service with the company will get early retirement. The people with 20 plus years will probably get full retirement and benefits. Just what I saw happen when John Deere closed down the Distribution center here in KC I worked at during college, this happened when an agreement couldn't be made on a contract and a strike wasn't even involved they just said ok we are closing up shop in a year. Put quite a few part timers out of a job, these where mainly college kids that could barely afford to goto college that really needed a job, while all the full times got one hell of a severance package and their jobs where moved to Moline. | ||
| Paw |
I'm nonunion and the outsourcing does not effect me. In fact my job effects the union workers in the GE plant we make all types of part for them. You could say my job is taking a union job away but get this. In about a mouth i will be making $25 an hour up from $21.50 and i do pay partial health just like most people do. I've been union and made good money but hated my job because of the slackers who did not work and made us all look bad. Union breeds laziness as my brother once told me, at the time i was union and did not believe him but as time went by i saw just how right he was. | ||
| Midknyte |
We need to export our unions I can't recall which country it was (I think Japan), but yes, it has already begun to spread | ||
| Buellshyter |
For new hires that is around $1300 a year so when they retire in 30 years they will be making around $$75k a year, not bad. WTF??..in 30 years making 75k/year will be poverty wages. |
