| Author | Message | ||
     Jscott |
The above was a Harley PR piece. We have no idea what is actually at stake for the employees. Hopefully this will get resolved soon for the sake of both parties. "When I graduated from college, the average corporate CEO made 20 times what the average worker did; today, it’s nearly 400 times. In other words, it takes the average worker more than a year to make the money that his or her boss makes in one day." - Senator Jim Webb | ||
| Xl1200r |
CEO salaries has nothing to do with this. Are CEOs overpaid? There are very good and very valid arguments on both sides of that, but the bottom line is they get paid what their market value is, just like any consumer product. | ||
| Jimidan |
Jscott, Haven't your heard...Jim Webb is a Commie. jimidan | ||
| Jscott |
I didn't realize Reagan would allow a commie to be his Naval Secretary?  (Message edited by JScott on February 01, 2007) | ||
| Donutclub |
HD should take the Regan approach and fire them all. Syar | ||
| Pammy |
"most company's treat their employee's good to avoid getting involved with the union's and not out of the kindness of their hearts." I don't find that to be true at all. In this day and time good employees are hard to come by. Companies are having to bend over(backwards) to keep what they have. "Perhaps what we are witnessing is less a labor/management issue, frankly the issues in question seem not terribly divergent, as an inventory control device?" Funny I was saying the same exact thing to another business owner over lunch... | ||
| Madduck |
I was thinking that Harlye would use the strike to keep their stock price up during the first year that US sales actually drop. This year could easily be that year and wall street will find a strike much more palatable than downturn in customer demand. Share price is the only thing that matters to a modern business. Look at Home Depot. Last Boss did everything but increase share price and out he went. Would like to have his going away benefits tho. | ||
| Iamike |
IBEW has a no-strike clause - Not ours. At our vote last year, even though the union pay is by far above everyone else around, gets good benefits (even a $54 bonus for working through a meal), many still voted to strike. It is a mindset that too many have and don't realize why so many jobs are going overseas. Unions may still have their place but many are also cutting their own throats. Personaly, I would be leary of buying a machine that was built during stressed times. Remember when Ford was on strike several years ago? They were wearing t-shirts that said "I'd rather push a Chevy, than drive a Ford". I decided then that I'd never buy a Ford due to that attitude. So who did they hurt by wearing that shirt? | ||
| Rainman |
Sometimes the unions become as big and greedy as the companies. | ||
| Stingaroo |
Wow I just wanted to bring this news to everyone's attention, did not know it would become a debate... Court, that is a pretty decent observation... I just talked to Dad, he is not overly excited about this. He did not go into great detail, Wolfridgerider's post covers basically the same thing Dad told me. He said some of the new guys tried going to work today for first shift, but the doors were locked. Dad is supposed to go in tonite to work one hour, he is wondering if it will be a lock-out. I do not want to get too personal about my Dad's beliefs and thoughts on whats going on as that is for him to say, not me. I wish the Union and their families all the best. Brian | ||
| Buellshyter |
Do you have a choice? Yes, I have choices. I can work in a non-union shop or I can take my license and open up my own business full-time. By being a member of a union, you aren't looking after yourself. You've hired someone to do it for you. Yea, what's your point? I was looking out for myself WHEN I joined the union. In my trade our union negotiated pay is a base wage. We are free to be paid more and some, including myself, do earn more. I'm not a union fanatic. I don't attend union meetings, rally's or political events. I do my job in a union shop because I earn more money, have better benefits and safer working conditions then any non-union shop within my trade. I've worked my way up the ladder since I started but not belonging to a union as a journeyman/apprentice in the construction trades doesn't make much sense to me unless you're fortunate enough to be treated very well. Heck, even some union contractors can be fairly crappy to work for. You take the union out of it and construction would devolve into sweatshop labor in short order. With the flood of cheaper Hispanic labor it might just come to that anyway. Already, I saw Hispanic's working on tract housing last 4th of July at 7:30 in the evening. That's not something I want to see become universal. | ||
| Blake |
"When I graduated from college, the average corporate CEO made 20 times what the average worker did; today, it’s nearly 400 times." That Jim Webb quote has been found to be very misleading. Here's an interesting commentary on Webb's divisive class politics:
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| Buellshyter |
IBEW has a no-strike clause - Not ours I noticed you work on the utility/communications side of the IBEW. I'm on the inside wiremen end of it and we definitely have a nationwide no strike clause. We go to binding arbitration when the local can't reach an agreement with the contractors. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Personally, I think that Unions have outlived their usefulness. The UAW is a big part of the reason that Ford and GM are in trouble. | ||
| Outrider |
Send the jobs back to Milwaukee from whence they were stolen by AMF. Not to mention, our unions are used to being pushed around by Harley and like it. | ||
| Jscott |
Every story has two-sides... http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID= 10384 | ||
| Az_m2 |
I opened that link expecting to read the union position. It just ended up being drama and rhetoric. Is the core issue the fact that HD is asking union members to contribute to health care costs? | ||
| Iamike |
That union president doesn't see the hand writing on the wall. He is making the same mistake that the Ford & Chevy unions did during their haydays. Just because Harley is making money now doesn't mean that it will a few years from now and if they are loaded down with continuing costs from past contracts, goodbye Harley. I am not against unions or many of their tactics, I just don't like the adversarial attitude so many have against their bread and butter. | ||
| Buellgirlie |
Several helpful articles from the "York Daily Record", the local paper in York. Viewpoints from both H-D and the Union are presented. The last link is the most recent (talking about the lock-out). http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_5133345 http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_5133344 http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_5133866 http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_5133882 enjoy reading, D p.s. the strike deadline is 3 hours away..... | ||
| Court |
>>>I am not against unions or many of their tactics, I just don't like the adversarial attitude so many have against their bread and butter. Neither am I. I've been a card carrying I.B.E.W. member since 1969 as were my Father and Grandfather. The I.B.E.W is unique in that it is one of the only unions that was not started to emulate the trade guilds of Europe. Henry Miller, a Lineman like all of us in my family, started the I.B.E.W. basically as a safety organization in response to the fact that 50% of the Lineman were being killed. Dad and I spent a lot of time working high voltage transmission lines, up to 345,000 volts, bare hand. Let me tell you how things have changed. Today I get a call with some technical questions about Safety from the G.C. at the World Trade Center. They were asking on behalf of the electrical contractor (the firm MikeyP and I used to work for). I asked. . "why don't you contact the union?". The response "we did, they said worker safety is the contractor's responsibility, not theirs". Time have indeed changed. Court   | ||
| Stingaroo |
Dora, thanks for the post. Dad said he could not get into the plant at the beginning of his shift at 11:00pm tonite. If it is a lock out, could he not get unemployment? This is my last sememster, I am just hoping I dont have to drop out of college to help keep things rolling if Dad is out of work for an extended period. Dad has helped me become the first in my family to get a 4 year degree, the least I could do is head home with a diploma in my hand before I start another full time job. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
And so what does this mean for the end user customer? Are the bigger bagger bikes, softails, dynas, not going to be delivered to dealers?... That will make for a very bleak riding season and a severe ripple affect through the industry. Looks like its sporties, vrods and Buells all the way around. (buy two , they are smaller) | ||
| Buellgirlie |
sting, i don't know. from what i read, even though its a lockout, they are getting paid so i dont think it counts for unemployment. i have no idea how strikes and lockouts work with unemployments. i bet the local union will have a workshop soon about it. good luck to your dad. D | ||
| Stingaroo |
Here's some post from two Badwebbers (CobraDave, and Two_Buells) who are currently employed at HD, York. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/253 912/255295.html?1170417549 D, thanks for the luck, I know we kind of lack in that department. Brian (Message edited by stingaroo on February 02, 2007) | ||
| Buellshyter |
Court, I guess this makes you my brother...lmao | ||
| Buellshyter |
The UAW is a big part of the reason that Ford and GM are in trouble. Are you aware that some models of Toyota, Mazda, Isuzu, Saab and Mitsubishi are union made? | ||
| Tpoppa |
Are you aware that some models of Toyota, Mazda, Isuzu, Saab and Mitsubishi are union made? Yes I am. The problem isn't that union workers are involved. The problem is that the UAW has too much leverage over Ford and GM. The UAW has some adversarial practices which in many cases make it harder for GM and Ford to be competitive in a global market (not to mention healthcare costs). Manufacturers need to be agile and able to react to a changing market, the UAW is often slow to react and a barrier to change. Question...For me, the consumer, what is the advantage of buying an auto assembled by the UAW? I can't think of a reason. | ||
| Buellshyter |
Question...For me, the consumer, what is the advantage of buying an auto assembled by the UAW? I can't think of a reason There is no reason for you not to, either. The relationship between a company and it's employees is their business or if you feel particularly patriotic or pro-labor it might mean a lot. I think most people could care less who made their car or where. What people want are many things - quality, price, style. Personally, I don't find most Japanese cars or motorcycles visually appealing but I wouldn't mind owning a a few German, English or Italian makes. Speaking of which, most European countries are heavily unionized. Daimler-Benz, under radical unionization, didn't have a problem buying up Chrysler which is doing well, by the way. The UAW didn't get GM or Ford into the bind they are in now. The decision makers did. Even if GM didn't pay their employees at all they still wouldn't be making any money because the bottom line is they aren't making a product people want. (Exaggeration, I know). They focused making very profitable SUV's and became complacent and now that trends have changed they cry poor-mouth. Increase sales and profits increase and labor costs decrease. | ||
| Bartimus |
This was posted in a new thread by Spreadem: YORK, Pa. - Union workers began a strike Friday at Harley-Davidson Inc.'s largest manufacturing plant, with small groups quietly picketing each entrance of the York facility. In anticipation of the strike, the company shut down production at the plant on Thursday. More than 50 workers gathered as the strike began at midnight, said Tom Boger, a union representative for the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local 175. Boger said the company installed cement barricades to block access to all gates, even empty parking lots. The strike came two days after unionized workers rejected the company's contract offer and authorized a walkout. "We are obviously disappointed by the union's decision," Fred Gates, general manager of Harley-Davidson's York operations, said in a statement Thursday. "The proposed contract was structured to help manage future costs that could be detrimental to our business over the long term." But union members said they felt the contract represented a step backward because it contained a two-tier wage system they said would penalize new hires. It also contained a requirement for employees to contribute toward health insurance premiums and pension concessions, they said. Nevin Bechtel, 59, who works in the plant's painting department, said the two-tier wage system would hurt morale. "We'll still keep building first-rate bikes, but when the second-rate people take over, what are we going to build then? Second-rate bikes?" Bechtel said. "There's no sense in doing this if we're not going to stick together," Bechtel said. "If we regress now, we've lost everything we're struggling for, and the company will think they've won." Russell Aldinger, 46, a mechanical assembler who said he had worked at the plant for 10 years, also objected to demands for concessions. "This company is very profitable, and for us to have to take concessions when we were earning the money that we were ... I feel it's ridiculous," Aldinger said. In the statement closing the plant, the company announced the suspension of production of the company's Touring and Softail motorcycles. The company said its proposal included annual wage increases of 4 percent over three years. But part of the increase depended on the union agreeing to contribute toward health insurance coverage. Unionized employees currently pay no premium. It also would have doubled the company's 401(k) retirement plan contributions. Boger said the union was prepared to return to negotiations. "We'll wait for the company to call us," he said. The facility employs more than 3,200 union and nonunion workers. This same thing happened to me back in '88 when I was working for Lockheed at a NASA site for the IAM, (International Aerospace & Machinists) union. Lockheed was spending too much on wages at the time and introduced a two-tiered pay system. Of course the union fought it, and lost. What it amounted to was this; When I was hired by Lockheed back in '81, my starting wages as an electronic tech level I was $8.65 an hour. By '88 I was a level III and earning about 18.75 an hour.New hires were coming in at $10.25 as a level I. Our strike lasted two months, and I crossed that picket line every day. I enjoyed my job and would have done it with, or without a union. I was called a "scab" and a number of other colorful names, and after the strike ended, my bike was vandalized on the site a number of times. Lockheed finally lost the contract to operate the site in '92, and Rockwell won it and came in and broke up the union, and dropped everyones wages. I left at that time, not wanting to take a pay cut. I ended up moving to Phoenix and finishing my college degree. The two tiered pay system was needed to help Lockheed maintain a profit, and didn't effect the current union members. I didn't see a problem with working side by side with a lower paid employee of the same grade. Some do, I guess. I'm not "anti-union". I just don't need a union to maintain a good job with good benefits. I let my experience and work ethics do that. I'm sure some companies need unions, Walmart comes to mind, when I think of that. | ||
| Nevrenuf |
i was going to bring that up earlier about walmart, but i erased it all cause some people don't think that it's necessary to have unions around. they will always have their place. |
