| Author |
Message |
    
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:48 am: | 
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Bomber,
It might have something to do with a 1250 top end with Millennium cylinders expertly built by Brian Nallin and Alan Samuels.  Hey, I paid over $3K for that new top end along with some cams. And if ye should ever decide to go and do likewise, ye shall ne'er regret it. 
For the record I was also surprised. Heck I still check it from time to time and... nothing. I'm still continually surprised.  You of all of course know how stubborn I can be. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 05:55 am: |
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I'll try again.
What is the purpose of that conical shaped coil spring in the oil filter housing with the ball valve on it?
Could it be that the spring tension has a relationship to excess crankcase pressure or excess oil bag pressure? Is it the reason for blowing oil out of the vent or blowing the cap off the oil bag, or has it nothing to do with either?
Rocket |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 09:20 am: |
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Rocket: Could it be a pressure relief valve to allow oil to bypass a clogged filter?
rt |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 09:54 am: |
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Rocket -- RT has the right answer -- while I'm sure that there is some corelation, I'm thinkin it's small, and statiscally unimportant.
Blake -- you may very well be right -- I'm goin 1250 myownbadself, and am currently checking the couches and easychairs at Festung Bomber for spare change for head work |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 05:15 pm: |
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Rocket,
The spring in the filter is the bypass. As the filter gets dirtier (more passages/pores plugged) the pressure rises. When the pressure is high enough the bypass is unseated and the oil goes around the filter element.
We've all read the stories here about over filled oil bags on Buells blowing caps off the oil bag. The Buell service manuals tell you not to overfill the bag.
The service manual on my Dyna FXD says if you overfill the oil tank (a metal casting, not a plastic bag) it will blow the filler cap off (the filler cap is not threaded, it is a friction fit with O-rings for sealing/retention).
The conclusion I have drawn are that both Buell and H-D engines have a certain amount of pressure on the engine cases and oil tank when running.
And that the capacity of the oil tank includes a certain amount of compressible free air space that will tolerate the peak pressure. But if you reduce the free air space the pressure is too high and the fill cap will blow off.
Incidental to all that, there is a more or less continuous bleed off or venting of pressure through the breathers and the vent in the transmission area.
And my final conclusion is that Buell owners don't have to be given a good reason or detailed explanation as to why they should not overfill their oil bags.
But us Harley riding dudes have to be given a good reason why we should not over fill the oil tank. What's that about?
I'm going to have to put my vacuum/pressure gage on my breather vent next season just to see what is going on there and what kind of pressures there are.
Jack
(Message edited by jackbequick on November 21, 2006)
(Message edited by jackbequick on November 21, 2006) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:57 am: |
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I understand the purpose of the ball valve, but still.........
When I first had the blowing off oil bag cap (back in 98) oil got on the rear tyre and I dropped the Buell doing a 180deg turn from set off. I highsided when the slippery tyre hooked up. Damage was done and I called the dealer and explained about the oil. They took care of the damage and explained that ball valve had caused excess pressure in the oil system and resulted in the cap blowing off, so they changed the spring so they told me. I wondered about this often and have stirred often at the oil diagram in the manual, and scratched my head.
It has never caused me a problem since though. That is until my top end was rebuilt before the dreaded engine failure. On a couple of high speed motorway cruises the breather blew out loads of oil. It was something I was going to look into but the blow up stopped that happening for over three years.
Well, since the rebuild nearly 18 months ago, in which I replicated ever modification from the original 1999 build, ie nothing has changed, it has blown out oil from the breather filter on a number of high speed occasions. So much so that I am now running the oil level at an accurately measured quantity (around 2 ltr's metric off the top of my head) and am fastidious in getting the measurement correct etc etc, yet it still continues on odd occasions to blow oil out the breather.
Now here's the interesting part. I've had a Metmachex oil tank fitted since 1999 and there is way more capacity in the tank than Buell ever came with in their bag. So will someone please explain this mythical air space that is so required inside the oil bag (or tank in my case) as there's enough space left in my oil tank, since I've reduced the capacity to Buells recommended, to throw a banquet.
Rocket |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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In my first reply I thought you were asking about the bypass in the filter, not the one in the filter housing. Do you remember, was your oil bag overfilled any when that happened? If so, the dealer may have "guessed wrong" about that being the cause there. A little overfill and the hard riding may have done it.
But you are right about there being a lot of unanswered questions on this. I should add that my post above was more my educated guesses than know to be fact.
But I keep coming back to the only explanation for some of the cap blowoffs and breather blow by having to relate to the fill levels and also to the engine speeds.
Some of the people that have the issues, like yourself, are also the riders that are running their bikes harder and at higher RPM.
But your Metmachex oil tank being larger cranks in a new perspective on it. I did not know about that.
They sell a conversion somewhere that will convert the Buell oil bag's push in fill cap to a threaded (won't pop out) cap. But I don't think that would be a rationale for allowing you to put more oil in, it seems that the oil is going to get out somewhere under certain combinations of fill levels and engine speeds/durations.
It is a conundrum.
Jack |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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Rocket,
I think they are BSing you.
There is no "ball valve" in a Buell/sporty's oil pump.
They are only in Big-Twins.
there is no such ball valve that I have ever seen and I have had a Buell engine apart many a time.
They may have been covering their butts about overfilling... |
Newfie_buell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 02:04 pm: |
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I had the oil stopper pop once because I overfilled it.
After a winter of the bike sitting up for several months I stupidly checked the oil without letting the engine warm up.
When I checked it the level was very low and of course added the required amount to bring it up. Started the bike and let it idle (with seat off) and a short time after POP and oil almost hit the ceiling of the garage.
I asked my friendly neighborhood Harley Technician and he explained that after sitting all winter the oil drained past the "whatever" into the base where it sat. Of course when I added oil I had more than a litre overfull so it had to go somewhere. Bike was started and the sump was pumped out overfilling the oil tank.
I have no idea if that was the reason but since then I always warm the bike for a bit before checking the oil.
As for the breather thing my S3 hardly spits any oil/residue out the breather lines however the S1 frequently coats the air filter when ridden in a spirited manner. |
Cyclonecharlie
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 03:33 pm: |
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Rocket,
Don't know if this applies in your case, but I have found (thru error of my own) that if you allow a dip in the routing of your breather line. It will build up a pool of spooge in the low section and then blow it out when you least expect it. I got rid of the dip (so the air could flow) and never had the problem again....Charlie |
Nxtr
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 04:32 pm: |
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There is no "ball valve" in a Buell/sporty's oil pump
It is not in the oil pump, it is a Check Ball and it is at the oil filter adapter. I believe it is there to prevent oil from draining back into the bottom end.
see lube sys, 3-28; http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/Manuals/S1_1 996-1997_Service/intro.pdf
V/R,
Nick |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 08:20 pm: |
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Spider, in the oil filter housing.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/Manuals/S1_1996-1997_Service/BU3b.pdf
Some of the people that have the issues, like yourself, are also the riders that are running their bikes harder and at higher RPM.
Jack I believe that nails it. Indeed it is a conundrum.
Charlie, I have two hoses running up under the fuel tank then T'd into one long pipe that follows the top tube under the tank and tail unit to the rear. There are some slight dips and rises along the route but nothing significant I'd have thought.
Rocket |
Cyclonecharlie
| | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:23 am: |
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Rocket,
Really nice S1. You need to seriously consider switching to the XB rocker boxes. They do such a better job.
When I had a set-up like yours,I ran my vertical lines alittle higher and used plastic air/oil separators in the vertical sections(came from HD) The dip you have at the end of your hose is enough to cause you a problem if conditions are right. With XB tops you don't have to worry about a drain back section at the heads.....Charlie |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 06:18 pm: |
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Ah well Charlie, after a three year wait to get the motor rebuilt in June 05, I had pondered over the XB rocker tops, and still do.
Truth is, I wanted to put miles on her rather than wrench. Lord knows I've had a lot of other 'projects' to tidy round these past couple of years.
Here's one I'm trying to finish right now....
Rebuilding this Swedish built air suspension system has been testing to say the least. Getting it to pieces was no mean feat I can tell ya. The pivot arm bushes are shot in all four swing arms, and these bushes have taken weeks to source from Sweden, only to find out the pivot shaft has been modified from stock and they don't fit. So I'm forced to have eight bushes specially made from a material known as Nylon 60. Anyway, this thread's about breathing, lol. I digress.
XB rocker tops? Maybe one day - and thanks for the breather line tips.
Rocket |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 01:03 pm: |
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To answer the question about crankcase volume...
I know in the BT, there is a type of rotating valve that works to keep things evened out for the most part. These are peice of plastic on the stock bikes, and a lot of guys upgrade to a metal unit from S&S.
It basically lookes like a short tube (maybe 1" long) that is solid on one side and screen on the other. I *believe* as it turn with the engine, the screen part lets the extra pressure out on the downstroke of both pistons.
As for this check ball in the filter housing - this is an interesting question. There is usually a check valve in the filter itself to keep oil in the filter and not have it drain back into the crankcase, so I don't think this is was this valve is for.
There is also a checkball to attempt to keep oil from draining into the crankcase from the oil tank, but this woudln't be on the oil filter adapter. So basically my answer is "I don't know".
Hope that helps  |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 08:56 pm: |
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Is this ball and spring not the oil pressure relief that governs the engine oil pressure?
I was led to believe that the oil filter has its own mechanical( and once activated permanent) bypass. |
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