| Author | Message | ||
     Woody1911a1 |
sorry Rocketman , just what is your point ? that buell is forcing dealers to stockpile bikes to up their sales figures ? or that you have an axe to grind ? | ||
| Blake |
"Bullshitting a reputation by proclaiming 762 XB12S have sold in Italy is not only a joke it's a lie." Strong words. Care to back them up with some proof? No proof? Then you owe an apology. | ||
| Buellgirlie |
spent 3 weeks in italy last year (milan, rome, venice, perugia, assisi, florence, tivoli, naples, pompeii, pisa, florence, ferrara, padova, burano, ancona), saw 1 buell, in rome.  small, highly unscientific example, but from the viewpoint of a buell enthusiast on the lookout for motorcycles of all types, it was disappointingly low. D (was invited to milan show this year, fell through, dammmmit!!!) | ||
| Xbmojo |
Aside from the rear number plates, I think the new TT rocks. I assume the rear number plates are easily removable. So when will you be placing your order? My suggestion is that if you don't order 1 then that's one failed sale. talk is cheap | ||
| Court |
I agree. I've been watching as Ducati scrambles to execute their strategy to slow/halt temporarily production in an effort to relieve unsold inventory in their dealers showrooms. The United States was the only country in the world where Ducati increased sales last year. As you are well aware, Ducati sales in the United Kingdom were down a staggering 18%. Through the end of the 3rd quarter of 2006, Ducati has a net loss (loosing money on their primary business that they have been in for over half a century) of 4,600,000 Euro. The great news is that's much better than the 16,600,000 Euro loss for the same period the prior year. As part of their strategy, Ducati is cutting costs and production of the lower end bikes and concentrating on high margin units. I like this strategy because I think more folks buy expensive Ducati's than cheap. Frankly I think the new 1098, particularly in the tri-colore will sell out in the United States. Ducati reputation insures that the more expensive it is, the more folks want it. I have 4 friends who jumped on those MV Agusta F4's for $40K a crack, just cause they were "rare". One of them has ridden his. One of them was a major investor in Texas Pacific Group and figured by buying expensive Ducati's he was "doing his part". Oddly enough he was thrilled when TPG dumped a long stale DMH ADR's and picked up Burger King. My wife works on Wall Street and they are in the process of distributing an unprecedented $22B in bonus money (the highest in the history of the stock market) and I know several folks 2 of the 5 of them ride, who will be buying pricey things and have in the past bought 996's. Since the former Ducati Factory Flagship store has been closed and turned into an apartment next to the next Starbuck's on 11th Avenue there are no dealer, so they'll have to overcome that challenge. There is a dealer over in New Jersey who will pick your bike up and take it there to work on but they could no longer afford to have bikes sitting waiting for repair as it as "nearly impossible to get parts from Ducati" (DEALERNEWS - July 2006) Lots of challenges. Ducati sales in the United States are WAY up. I think that's good and an important part of healing the wounds of the scandal that moved Ducati, NA from New Jersey to California. Sure, I'm bitter. Before he chased his mistress to California, I had pretty much free run of the places, they gave me some really nice free shit and it was easy to pull media bikes from the pool. I confess to having a personal axe there. Plus, I miss the speaking fees. Buell has never paid me to speak and Ducati was very generous. Many Buellers recall when they loaned me the use of the store to hold the Buell party in NYC. Oh well.....my problems notwithstanding. I see one of the problems as alienation. After the meeting on July 20 when Ducati announced the temporary layoff of 100 workers there has been discord with the craftsmen. They have a factory of pissed off people. Don't confuse that with the other meeting in August where they sought to explain why they failed to file required documents in a timely manner. The shining star seemed that Ducati had peeled down some of their staggering debt. I recall the difficulties they went through, when TPG stepped in (this was the last time they ceased delivering parts in 1997 after vendors cut them off and their unpaid taxes exceeded the value of the company) to save the day. I was disappointed to find the debt reduction came, not a result of operations, but from a cash infusion from the new investors. I suspect the first requirement, as with TPG, when they invested was that they resolve unpaid back taxes. There is an emotional part of me, the part that like fast cars and motorcycles, that is thrilled Ducati can hang on after being knocked to the mat so many times. I think the new bike is gorgeous and I have a long standing infatuation with the looks of the Monster...that thing's timeless. The new Ducati is damn sure sexier than the Buell, huh? Ducati also had another bang up year of racing, their website kicks Buell.com to heck and I like their branding with cool folks like Oakley. Erik would never, while loosing $1500 on each bike that rolled off the line, be able to sneak that past the auditors at HD. I guess in that regard they do have him under their thumb, eh? My point is that, particularly after being in the business for better than half a century, you should have some of this stuff sorted out. Ducati has a great website, cool stuff and builds great looking motorcycles. But, the business model doesn't inspire confidence. They are, as HD is oft accused of, riding their "heritage" a bit too far. Personally, and it's beginning to look like I stand alone, I am thrilled that Buell is designing and building motorcycles AT A PROFIT. Now bear in mind that Buell is MAKING a profit, their own net revenue is great than Gross revenues less sales WITHOUT the need for any cash infusion by Harley-Davidson. (We're fortunate here in the US that much disclosure is required) The Buell racing effort this year was very disappointing and I confess that my greatest fascination is that, after years of wanting to, Buell was able to get back into racing WITH THEIR OWN MONEY generated from operations and still make a profit. I've been quite amazed, although I should have expected it, at the capacity for unkindness. I'm not sure I'm totally taken with this new bike; I'm confused about where it fits in the big plan and with what the marketing folks were thinking. What I am not going to do is call Erik Buell names, accuse him of all sorts of personal inadequacies from selling out to being stupid. I'm going to go, talk to design folks, talk to marketing folks, ride the motorcycle and ask questions. Dyna has called "Bullshit" on my ability to proffer an "open minded" opinion. Once again, he's right and I am wrong. I agree with him, I can't make a bias free independent decision. Greg's smarter than I when it comes to the motorcycle business, but then I'm a construction worker. I'm betting on the market place to judge the relative merits of how the new HyperMotard and 1089 sell in comparison to Buells. I've already got a sheet here to see how many TT's go at the $10,400 ticket and how many of the new Ducatis sell. I'm eager to see Ducati's year end numbers. Anyway. . . I'm buzzing outta Gotham and headed to East Troy to visit a friend in the hospital. Enjoy your opportunity to vilify Erik, tout his lack of backbone in standing up to the Mothership and to point out that he's never won a world superbike championship. The dummy is stuck there in East Troy living his dream, doing something he loves and making a profit at it. Damn you Erik Buell. Court | ||
| Rocketman |
Buell are not getting their dealers to stock pile anything. This is how it works. A manufacturer brings to market a new model. The dealer is allocated several. If the dealer sells all within a set time frame he is offered a better discount next time around. If that target is not achieved the dealer simply pays the usual (higher) price. If the dealer has 4 XB12S sitting on his floor unsold and unregistered and it is nearing time to put his sales quota in the dealer might choose to register for road use some or all of the 'left over' stock to enhance the sales figure. That is how the numbers stack up but the sales don't. That is all I am saying. I'm not saying this is a crime nor detrimental to Buells business model. I am simply stating it is my belief that 762 XB12S have not sold in one sales year in Italy, and this well know practice offers a reason why. If however a manufacturer is using such tactics to bolster their image by claiming and increase in popularity for their brand, then that is a lie. So when you read the increase figures for production / units sold those figures do not necessarily tell the whole story, but of course the manufacturer doesn't want this known as common knowledge amongst its potential or existing customers. One other thing to consider. When we are talking about a low volume manufacturer it doesn't take more than a handful of dealers from a handful of countries to change the sales figures dramatically when those figures are shown as a percentage rather than individual units. I have no proof at all that Buell DID NOT sell 762 XB12S in Italy in one sales year, but the practice I speak of is common place and offers a reason as to why I don't believe that figure. It also begs the question if you are to believe 762 is correct then where are these Buells to be found in Italy? Are their owners keeping them as museum pieces or house furniture? I say this because the UK bike scene offers a similar demographic to that of Italy. Similar in size, population and economy, both countries are sharing the same manufacturer / model base, the only difference of note here being the fashion. That fashion in Italy perhaps dictates the consumer is buying more exotic and streetfighter style motorcycles than we in the UK but here's the point. From the above list I have seen Tuonos on the street. My friend even bought one. K1200R can be seen as can FZ1000. Hornets and Monster S4R'S (hell my friends got one of them too)are not uncommon. Speed Triple, Z750 and Z1000 are common as muck. Though not on the list above - BMW1150GS are very common, maybe because of 'The Long Way' which was a worldwide DVD hit anyway, so why in the UK if I may offer that as a comparison to Italy am I not seeing Buells out on the road save for a mere few XB's in my travels, but not so far an Uly? Do you really expect me to believe Italian's bought 762 XB12S? I smell a marketing rat in the home of style and high fashion, and where better to have that rat sink its teeth in. If they're good enough for the Italian's............. Prove me wrong. Show me the actual unit sales for those XB12S in Italy and I will apologise. Hell I'll eat my socks too. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
No one can argue with that Court. I don't think anyone here is having a pop at Erik Buell. We all wish the company well, but I'd have to ask, does running in the black stifle the product? Ducati might be in the red but they are spending someones money on pleasing the consumer. Rocket | ||
| Xbmojo |
It evident that buell have just run out of ideas. Because simply if they have sold so many bikes then they can easily afford to sink funds into bringing new original ideas to market. | ||
| 12r |
It's true Buells are few and far between in England, I have seen just one Ulysses on the road, three Firebolts and maybe five Lightnings. My local shop has done their best to organise and promote the marque but at the last meet there were like 6 Buells - 5 tubers and an XB. Eighteen months ago Buells were hot - well, warmish - and there was a lot of interest by the influential press. But time marches on and machines like the City X, Ulysses and laughable TT have done Buell no favours at all. What could've been a genuine alternative to mainstream sports bikes (I'm thinking Firebolt here) has lost it's impetus and is now regarded as a quirky, eccentric choice, hopelessly outclassed by the competition. Not so much a 'has-been' but more of a 'never-was'. There's a chance, just a chance, that the situation can be recovered without losing Buell's essential characteristics. Capitalise on the best and most worthy features, address the shortcomings. Make a bike to be proud of and people will buy it - a few dogs in the line up can be tolerated if there are flagship models to aspire to. | ||
| Trojan |
The Italian Buell market certainly looks in a much more healthy and bouyant state than the UK one at the moment. A lot of the quality aftermarket parts are made there, a number of dealers are racing XB's in various series including Italian Supertwins, and the future looks very bright for Buell there. Compare that to the UK where the vast majority of dealers are owned by large car sales groups and care not one jot for Buell as a brand. They will not spend any money on promotion or 'putting anything back' into motorcycling, and even in the better dealerships Buells are hidden in the darkest deepest corner of the showroom. There is not a single UK dealer involved in Buell racing in this country (I discount Warrs because they only race in the US). Buell UK seem at a loss to work out who the customers actually should be, so resort to expensive 'blanket' advertising in the national press in the hope of catching some 'undecided' buyers. Buell UK were given the opportunity of sponsoring the entire UK Thunderbike race series last year for a cost of GBP10,000 (US$18,500) for the whole season, or roughly the same as a single page advert in a national paper. This would have given Buell a foothold in the UK race scene and would have shown current sports bike owners that Buell is seriously comitted to sports bikes in the UK. Buell UK declined because they 'had no money'. So far next year there will not be a single Buell racing in the UK.  Compare this to the support given to racers in the US (US$750,000 contingency money?) and you'll understand why the US Thunderbike series has around 98% of all competitors on Buells and we have just one bike competing. However that is not the whole story. Italy, Germany, France and even Holland have very active Buell dealer race teams running in high profile national (and international ) races and championships and they don't get any contingency either. In the UK we are obsessed by sportsbikes almost to the exclusion of everything else, unlike mainland Europe where they embrace a much wider variety of bike styles. 5 years ago the XB was seen as an innovative, exciting and radical concept that was almost universally raved about in the UK press. What Buell need now is another brand new and exciting model in order to get the same reaction. Simply introducing rebadged/recoloured versions of the same bike will not do the job here unfortunately I really hope that the 2008 model lineup brings something new and exciting for us all to cheer about. | ||
| Daves |
Rocket, That is not how the dealer pricing works. I pay exactly the same for each Buell no matter how many I sell. Every other dealer pays the same as I do, even down to the shipping. I get hosed on that cause it costs me 245.00 per bike for them to bring them 130 miles. The dealer in Washington, like 2000 miles away gets a bargain since he pays the same 245.00 It doesn't matter how many you sell or don't sell, they cost the same. Pretty sure it works the same in Italy? | ||
| Pammy |
"As for the number of Buells around. Sure we like a cool bike that not many see that often. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing here." Absolutely no attempt at "discussion" on my part. Just pointing out the irony of the ongoing "discussion" today, from "discussions" of a few years back. Also, I thought it odd that I see so many Buells out and about(when I read that others don't). Odd, due to the fact that I work 12-16 hours a day and 6 days a week. So I am only allowed out on my bike 1 day a week and I ALWAYS come across a few Buells. Purely an interjection from me, no discussion intended. | ||
| Pammy |
You know what else I see an inordinate amount of?....Chihuahua's...Yeah, Chihuahua's. What is up with that? It seems that everyone is getting that mean little dog. I mean, even people are coming in my shop with the hateful little bastards. My Dad even has one. The world is, indeed, TOPSY TURVY!  | ||
| Bomber |
does running in the black stifle the product? I'll admit that this statement confused me at first -- I mean, existance vs. non-existance of a product, how can that be stifling? then I thought about it, and came to see the point, I think . . . . the answer is, of course, running a business is ALWAYS more organized than having a hobby -- many more laws to follow, for instance -- including the law of supply and demand put another way, if imagine the zoomy bike I could make if someone else (like, say, the taxpayers) paid for it -- it would be sooooooo cool, and I swouldn't have to be worried about my ability to pay for it phew -- I'm glad I finally get the point -- sorry it took so long, but I've been paying my own bills for so long, you see, it's hard for me to think of business as a social program thanks for the truth, the light, and the way | ||
| Whodom |
Proof of Buells in Italy:  A friend of mine was there (Naples IIRC) about a year ago. He's not even into motorcycling and spotted this one ~1 hour after he got off the plane. | ||
| Elvis |
Fact 1: Buell shipped more bikes in 2005 than they have any other year Fact 2: Buell shipped more bikes in the first 3 quarters of 2006 than they have in the first 3 quarters of any other year Fact 3: Buell has been "thinning" their dealer network. Possibility 1: Most of the bikes Buell has been shipping over the last couple years have been stacking up at dealers in an enormous log-jam. Possibility 2: Dealers are replacing their stock at roughly the same rate they are going out the door and Buell is doing pretty well. Let logic be your guide and ignore the BS spewed by people who have been predicting Buell will fail for the past several years and looking for obscure and unreliable data to try to prove they were right. | ||
| Elvis |
Fact 4: Buell's revenue has increased every year since 2000 going from $58,053,000 to $93,069,000, an increase of 60% compared to (mighty) Harley's (bike) revenue increase of 86% over the same period. Could be better, but far from anemic. | ||
| Prof_stack |
Back to the MCN article: According to the numbers, for every 1 Buell that sells, 50 Harleys sell. Now I understand why my local dealer, Downtown Harley near Seattle, moved them out of the main showroom and placed them near the service bay. FWIW: The new TT model does nothing for me. | ||
| Daves |
Here that ratio is more like 1 Buell to every 8.78 HD  | ||
| Spiderman |
Dave, I guess they Just sell there  | ||
| Davegess |
I gotta say that the finanicial numbers don't lie. You could stuff bikes into to dealers but only for a year at most. I don't know about Italy but no US dealer would register a bike as sold without selling it. They would have to immediatly, like today, pay tax on the sale and the value of the bike would drop by 10-20% when they really did sell it. Perhaps in Italy or the UK you can sell a not sold bike but it would be the death of a dealer in the US. | ||
| Davegess |
also think about it 700 bikes sold in Italy, teh chance of you actually seeing one of those has got to be pretty low in a country of 60 million. there has to be millions of MC on the roads. | ||
| Court |
That's an inaccurate statement....at least it USED to be. I am aware of Buell dealers who "sold" Buells to employees and provided paperwork to the mothership. I've had a couple run ins with this, from both ends of the commercial equation and have handled two cases of customers who have bought "new" Buells only to find out their warranty had been long gone, having started the day the dealer reported the bike sold. The instances I am personally aware of are several years ago. I have no knowledge if this goes on any longer. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Court: I'm assuming that was back in the days when the dealer got extra H-Ds for each Buell. Would that be a correct assumption? That they "sold" the Buells to increase their allotment of new H-Ds? If so, without that incentive there is no longer any reason to pull that scam. | ||
| Pammy |
Yamaha dealers do that as well. | ||
| Daves |
Brian, I think it had to do with winning a Pegasus award but I am not sure | ||
| Court |
The other one, frankly, that irks me is the dealer getting the bike delivered, claiming it was damaged in crating (not shipment which would involve the carrier and not pay off in the labor area) (say a wrinkle black primary cover), getting a new primary cover, billing HD for "warranty" to "fix" it by replacing it. When the replacement comes, they simply took a screwdriver, put a gash in it, got the labor to replace credited to their dealer account and sent the freshly damaged one back. Not sure anything like this has ever actually happened, but it pissed me off to watch someone STEAL and do something that reflected on Dez and Nate, two of the nicest folks you'd ever want to meet. Beyond Dave's stunning looks. . . . well, what I like is he's honest as the day is long. I was before I became a "serial liar" and started concocting all these bizarre stories. | ||
| Daves |
I notice you said "stunning looks" not "stunning good looks" | ||
| Court |
>>>>I notice you said "stunning looks" not "stunning good looks" That is an accurate statement. Don't push me long hair.  | ||
| Rocketman |
I was thinking that Ducati get bashed by some on the BadWeB for being massively in debt, probably because they've invested into the red to bring new models to market. If those new models succeed the idea is getting back into the black. On the other hand, Buell by staying in the black maybe can't afford to bring a bike like a 1098 to market. Maybe the Buell way is to do it exactly the way they are, which is apparently working well for Buell. But what does this say about the future product and the potential future customer? Just how does that massively in debt company manage to bring a totally new bike to market from scratch to Tricolour edition in less than 2 years, and intend to go world and multinational Superbike racing on it the next year? And how do Buell stay in the black and manage to bring the potential consumer nothing like a 1098? Is this an American thing? As for those 762 XB12S sold in Italy, I better go prepare my socks!  Rocket |
