| Author | Message | ||
     Doon |
Not sure what to make of this. Looks like cop went to give chase on Biker exceeding the speedlimit, lost control of his SUV and hit a tree. http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=458C6E15-45A3-4563-8CC3-B0 DF7B48EEAB from the article. Fitzpatrick says Carncross could face these tougher charges thanks to a new state law. He says the case will go before an Onondaga County grand jury in the next couple weeks. website listed in story http://www.cnystunter.com/ -Patrick | ||
| Cruisin |
I usually hear about how cops shouldn't chase for more than a short time and not necessarily at high speeds because of the danger to the public and to the chasee... So the officer made a decision to drive recklessly in an SUV in an attempt to catch a speeder and killed himself. The chase was less than two minutes... Tragic? Absolutely. Do I think Carncross should be charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide? Absolutely NOT! He made a mistake and sped. Give him a fat ticket and suspend his license for a month, fine...reckless endangerment or something like that, but not manslaughter or homicide...that's pushing it. But then again, that's just my opinion. | ||
| Paulson |
The troopers death is very tragic. But he was just as reckless as the rider. What would have happened if the tree hadn't stopped him? Plowed through a daycare? I knew as soon as I heard about this that the biker was going to catch he11. I do not think he should be facing any charges concerning manslaughter. | ||
| Court |
Boy have you opened a can of worms here. . . luckily, it's been open since the English were kind enough to share their common law with us. It is held therein, the English Common Law, that "… a tortfeasor takes his victim as he finds him". Now in the world of liability and torts there are basically 3 kinds of negligence, each inferring a differing level if care. In the instant case, I'll share an exmaple and then I'm back to construction and will leave this to the Juris Doctori among the Badwebbers. If you run into a conveneince store wearing a mask, scream "this is a hold up" and the 84 year old retiree behind the counter drops dead from a heart attack...you have just committed murder. Literally...."… a tortfeasor takes his victim as he finds him". When the motorcyclist induced the cop, rightly or wrongly, in accord with or violation of policy, to chase him...he took, under our law, a muhc higher duty of care for his safety and assumed a lot of negligence. He rolled the dice and lost. Just not by the "normal" (as in an accident) way you would expect. UNRELATED TIDBIT: Wanna take a crack at the probable outcome of ANY motorcycle chase? | ||
| Ryker77 |
SUV -- thats all that needs to be said. Any dumb@ss that thinks an SUV can handle high speeds is stupid. A traffic cop should surely understand that. Todeschini was heading northbound on Route 91 when he spotted the speeding motorcycle heading in the other direction, at an estimated speed of around 100 MPH. Todeschini turned and started to pursue the motorcycle, when he lost control and crashed his SUV into a tree. The pursuit lasted no more than two minutes, according to state police. At 100mph the biker would have had NO clue he was blue lighted. Case closed-- dismissed. Heck at 70mph I can't really see anything miles behind me. Cop had to slow down and turn around. at least 5 seconds. Then acclerate up to 100mph another 15 seconds. Thats atleast 20 seconds. In 20 seconds the biker would have been over 3000feet or 3/4 of a mile ahead of the cop car. If the guy is found guilty then is sits up a dangerous legal issue. That anybody even a busted tail light could be charged with the same crime -- murder. All because a stupid cop didn't know how to drive. go get'em officer you'll keep us safe. | ||
| Doon |
Court: I just posted the article and declined to make any comment on it.. I am not a lawyer, and I don't even play on on TV. Just seemed to me, that it was something that we all here would be interested in. On a side note, I am currently sitting in an office 2 floors underneath the New York State Troopers PBA. Probable outcome of Any motorcycle chase? My guess is someone is going to crash, most likely the chasee, but do not have any stats to back it up. | ||
| Spike |
No way I'm buying that. It may hold up in court, but it's complete nonsense. If I'm seen jaywalking and a cop walks out in front of a truck on his way to write me a ticket I am guilty of jaywalking- nothing else. How about if I call 911 to report a house fire and the firefighters get in an accident on the way to the scene? Would I be responsible for their deaths too? How far does this form of negligence go? This is one horrifying slippery slope. | ||
| Court |
Doon: I understand you were just posting. My comments were just comments, not directed at you. The justice system defies logic. I, as many here know, was gunned down, the guy was convicted (his 23rd felony) of 7 counts of aggravated assualt with intent to kill or mame and I ran into him in a bar 11 months later. The good side is that I am impossible to impanel on a jury.  | ||
| Doon |
Court: I know they weren't directed at me. Just a pre-emptive don't shoot the messenger. And yep I know our justice system defies logic. | ||
| Oldguy |
But, if you're driving a car and turn left in front of a biker and he dies, all you have to say is "I didn't see him" and you'll walk away with a $25 dollar ticket for failure to yield or some such minor offense. Glenn | ||
| Aldaytona |
Was there "VONAGE" music playing in the Troopers car during this fiasco?  | ||
| Rokoneer |
Glad to see this being addressed here as the incident happened in my area of NYS. I have had some very heated discussions with locals regarding this incident and man are people polarized about the whole thing. I am one who feels that the Trooper made irresponsible decisions which resulted in his own death. When the motorcycle passed him coming the other direction it was going fast enough that the Trooper was unable to provide even the color of the bike when he radioed in the call, and I would have to agree with Ryker's time frame as mentioned above. I spoke with a retired NYS State Police Sargent today and it was his feeling that the decision to chase was "stupid and irresponsible" but that he wasn't surprised that a young Trooper would do such a thing. | ||
| Blake |
Conducting a high speed chase in an SUV indicates very poor judgement. Case dismissed. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Conducting a high speed chase in an SUV indicates very poor judgement. Case dismissed. you weren't there. thus, you don't know the circumstances. i respect that you have an opinion, but your opinion is not necessarily fact. agree? FB | ||
| Spike |
Now THAT is an accurate statement.  | ||
| Raraf |
Yeah but Cops are always right: http://www.videovat.com/videos/1016/cop-forgets-to-put-the-parking-brake-on.aspx I like the motorcycle cop here in Denver who was chasing a harley guy and thought he could go through a Ford Ranger. Oopsy Daisy. He actually hit it so hard he almost flipped the Ranger! He amazingly lived through it! He rehabbing just fine. He is quoted as saying "Boxing has been very kind to me, Howard" and "I like to squeeze the ball". I think he went to this school for driving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crTeX5UOzso&search=speeding%20lives | ||
| Vaneo1 |
Ryker, the mail link doesnt work. I was trying to mail my thoughts to the trooper. can you fix the link so I can email him? | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Had the motorcycle rider NOT been speeding, the trooper would not have attempted to stop him, the accident would NOT have occured and the trooper would still be alive. Unfortunately, the motorcycle rider chose to speed, which caused the trooper to take action to up-hold the law. The speeding motorcycle rider should have known that at some point a law officer would observe him in violation and attempt to stop him. | ||
| Brineusaf |
I feel bad for his surviving wife and unborn child... My first born was born on the 17th of April - Audrey Caroline Brine 7lbs 11oz, 20'' . I couldn't imagine the emotions she is going through. Not to mention the pain for the child in the future. | ||
| Spike |
Using that logic, the jaywalker scenario I mentioned earlier would make the jaywalker guilty. If you wouldn't hold the jaywalker responsible, you can't hold the motorcyclist responsible. | ||
| Zxzer04 |
Seems to me this situation is the worst. It seems that the worst thing here is a Officer lost his life and leaves behind a wife and unborn child. Thats just plain sucks, and whose at fault doesn't change that terrible fact. Now granted, most riders seem to think that its ok to speed a little, but its not like they make the laws just to •••• us riders off. The laws are there to protect us all, including that officer. His job was to enforce the law and stop that rider from speeding. "SAFELY". Chasing a Motorcycle in a SUV must have been way up there on the stupid moves list. And it sucks that a man died and we are discussing it so negatively, but it was a mistake on his part. LEO or not, safety of himself should have been first and foremost, as that protects the innocents around him also. At less than 2 minutes into the chase there was no time for this Motorcyclist to respond to the officer's blue light. Someone said 5 seconds to turn around and 15 seconds to accelerate to 100 mph? In a LEO SUV? Yeah, right. more like at least 20 seconds to decelerate turn around and then begin to accelerate to 100 20-30 seconds. Almost a full minute. In no way did that motorcyclist make that officer have to make extremely dangerous moves to catch him. Probably only realized that he had passed an LEO. Now once a pursuit has begun and the officer is chasing you and you run, I can see these charges applying as you are running from the police. But this kid could only have known the police officer had possibly turned around to give chase. It sucks and the kid should pay for his admitted involvement of speeding, but the officer made a bad choice that cost him his life, and this kid should not pay for his mistake. (Message edited by zxzer04 on April 29, 2006) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
SUVs aren't safe at 80, let alone 100. He should have radioed it in and awaited further instruction. I remember a "close calls" thread we had going here. People were saying if some tool pulls out in front of you and makes you crash but doesn't actually TOUCH your vehicle, they have no fault in the accident. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
The French "Police Nationale" & "Gendarmerie" have a saying that translates as "There's nothing faster than a Motorola." As I'm sure you can guess that's the make of 2 way radio that used to be standard issue. The philosophy is to let em go, radio ahead & block em, usually with a couple of old Renaults & a bunch of cops with shotguns & sidearms. The French have a very pragmatic view of law enforcement, If it's just him or me, let him go, I'll get him another day when I have the advantage. In this case, sadly the Trooper made an error of judgement in his choice of action to a speeding motorcycle, he should have used his radio not tried the impossible. I can't see how the rider can be held responsible for the misjudgement of the trooper. But then I realise you live in a country where it's always someone elses fault & the most expensive lawyer wins. I'm exagerating here, but when we see this sort of thing from afar, it just reinforces the impression that Americans have lost the ability to take responsibility for their own actions. I hope the guy get's a good lawyer & walks. Then I suggest he relocates! | ||
| Seth |
...All because a stupid cop didn't know how to drive... Unnecessary statement ••••••••. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Vaneo1 - That's not an email link, Ryker typed something that the Discus system thought was an email address and turned it into an email link. But Discus was wrong. Sending your thoughts to the trooper would be tough anyway, he was killed in the accident, remember? I'm not trying to lay any more blame or criticism on the trooper, but it would be interesting to know if he was wearing his seatbelt. It's sad that he paid such a high price for his poor decision. And the perp was wrong to be speeding. Any "exercise of personal freedoms" that breaks the law and puts others at risk is wrong. Period. It is never right. Punish him for speeding if you can make a case. Jack | ||
| Aldaytona |
Doesn't this fall under the theory of Natural Selection? | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
no one here knows the facts in the matter. the linked news report has few details, and the few that it has are just that - details - and not facts. i don't know the facts, either. i DO know that the officer was trying to do his job. there are many possible reasons why he may have chosen the actions that he did, and NONE of those reasons are anyone in this thread privvy to. many of you have passed judgement on the trooper, based on absolutely NO evidence to support your position. if i'm ever in the unfortunate position of needing to be judged by a jury of my peers, none of you are invited. FB | ||
| Spreadem |
A few years ago I was on a ridealong with a CHP officer, and a motorcyclist blew through an intersection in front of us at an insane rate of speed. The officer just sat there for a few seconds, and then I asked him if he was going to get the guy. He said "I'd never catch him, his top speed's probably 170 or something and he's already a mile down the road." He recognized the big picture. Some though will always believe (a) I saw someone violate a law and (b) I must stop them for violating that law. That is that, cut and dry, black and white...no gray area. None of us knows what this troopers mindthoughts were at the time of this incident, so I believe it IS premature to say he was wrong. There are a multitude of ways to react to any situation, and he may have picked the wrong one, BUT, I believe his time serving this country has at least earned him the right for evidence either in or against his favor to be presented in the proper forum, which needless to say, isn't Badweb. FB2 | ||
| Ryker77 |
Had the motorcycle rider NOT been speeding, the trooper would not have attempted to stop him, the accident would NOT have occured and the trooper would still be alive. Unfortunately, the motorcycle rider chose to speed, which caused the trooper to take action to up-hold the law. The speeding motorcycle rider should have known that at some point a law officer would observe him in violation and attempt to stop him. STUPID. Lets do some what IF's IF the bike maker didn't sell a fast bike the federal gov didn't allow a fast bike if the biker stayed home that day if the trooper was in a car if the LEA properly trained the cop The facts are clear --- no other factors would justify a cop risking his life or the lives of others around him just to catch the impossible to catch biker. many of you have passed judgement on the trooper, based on absolutely NO evidence to support your position. we all know SUV's are NOT SAFE at high speeds and not really even safe at 70mph. he was not chasing a dangerous felon who just killed 10 kids. Just a dumb biker speeding. Old guy may dad works with was hit in the rear end by a trooper. Trooper was resonding to a car wreck at over 100mph on a 65mph road with no blue lights on. Hit the old man in the rear end. Witnesses back this all up and guess what the dash cam was not on. State troopers refuse to pay for his damages. | ||
| Ryker77 |
some guys just like the thrill of blue lights and chasing somebody. any road cop knows this to be true. My cop buddies tell me all the time they like to get in on a chase. How they drive on the other side of the countie to join in. |
