| Author | Message | ||
     Cochise |
racing or track days? My insurance, Dairyland won't cover my back since I paid to get into a venue last weekend and took my bike onto the dragway and looped it. I received a quote from Geico, but I can't really say, "Hey, what if I take my bike to the dragraces?" | ||
| Newfie_buell |
For the most part Insurers will not cover you while racing. You need to go to a specialty writer such as K&K Insurance to pick up the specific cover. If they don't have it they may be able to send you in the right direction. Chances are that its very expensive and hard to find. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
I could be wrong but some track facilities may be able to offer coverage for an additional charge when you sign up. Also, if your a member of the association (NHRA, etc, etc....) your racing with they can sometimes offer the additional coverage you need. Racing is a risky sport that requires a whole new set of underwriting criteria. | ||
| Mrvvrroomm |
Dude, if you wanna play, you gonna have to pay. Insurance is for mishaps that occur while street riding. You want your insurance company to cover you when you're doing track days or drag racing? Sit down and think about that for a minute. Thats ridiculous. Man up, pay up. You broke it, you fix it. | ||
| Buellgirlie |
i never expect to be covered for racing. for track days - maybe. though i havent asked my insurance company (state farm) yet... here's why -i asked about my jeep and taking it four wheeling -sort of a similar thing to taking a motorcycle to a track -they answered that as long as it wasnt in "competition", then i was covered. in my mind, a trackday qualifies under that, and racing doesnt. regardless though, i now have a dedicated track/racebike and i dont carry street insurance or liability on it. just property insurance so that if it gets stolen out of a trailer or something like that - its covered. D | ||
| Lake_bueller |
Geico dropped my azz after just mentioning the track. And that was just to add a bike (which I didn't add and no longer own!!!). I've filed a complaint with the state insurance commisioner. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Man up, pay up. You broke it, you fix it." I'm so lucky to have any kind of insurance, I never made a claim on the 2 lowsides and one highside I had on my bike. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
A guy I used to work with ran a BMW car club here in NH. He once told me that the car insurance would cover 1 instance of a track mishap under the idea that it was "a driver training course". Track days, drag or road course, should be covered the same way. IMO they both improve rider skill and take the speed off of the public roads- both of which lower, not raise our insurance premiums..... What would be cheaper for the insurance company, paying for a track low side or paying for a road low side into the woods followed by a trip to the hospital. A loop at the strip or a loop in the middle of an intersection followed by an impact with another vehicle? Which was more expensive to the insurance companies- Nick's crash on the streets of FL or Cochises ground loop at the track? No, this is just another way for insurance companies not to pay. My bike, my body, and therefore the Ins. co.'s bottom line are all better protected at the track. To be clear, I am talking about track days, not race days and if you are a habitual crasher/insurance claimer, I'm sure your rates and ability to get insurance will reflect that. (Message edited by scott_in_nh on April 26, 2006) | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Unfortunately it don't work that way. The higher the risk (track day, race day, etc, etc) is a high risk compared to riding to work. Inherently racing is a dangerous sport and a risk insurers don't want to take on. Thats why there are specialty writers that specialize in that kind of risk and quite willing to take it on for an appropriate premium. The premium charged will be in proportion to the risk involved. Good Advice to anyone running their daily rider at track days is to confirm with their insurer if they are covered for Track Days. This not only applies to the Bike Insurance writer but also your Life Insurance/Disability Insurance Writer as well. If you don't want to ask the question because of fear of being immediately cancelled as in Dennis's Case then politely ask for a complete copy of the "Policy Wording" and pay careful attention to the "Exclusions or Excluded Uses" Section. It should spell out exactly what uses your covered for in that section. If your afraid to run your daily rider on the track because of lack of coverage then go buy a track bike or just be real real careful in the event of a spill. Another thing to consider is that what happens if you run into another rider while on the track?!? Sometimes those waivers that we all sign are not worth the paper they are written on. Make sure the track has proper insurance policies in place as well. The three main kinds of insurance you will want for the track days are: 1. Accidental Death & Dismemberment/Disability Insurance - for the rider 2. General Liability Insurance - for other riders 3. Physical Damage on the Bike (subject to availability) I don't want to get into arguments that Insurance Companies are trying to get out of paying claims because thats crap. When you enter into a "Contract of Insurance" there are certain responsibilities on both parties to the contract being the Policy Holder and the Insurer. A breach of either of those conditions can result in either cancellation or denial of coverage in some cases. Motorcycles are rated for street use and not racing or track use, People are rated for everyday mundane life and not racing/track days. | ||
| Lake_bueller |
Newfie....Good Advice to anyone running their daily rider at track days is to confirm with their insurer if they are covered for Track Days. That's EXACTLY what I was doing. They very promptly sent be a check for the remainder of my coverage term...along with the letter saying my insurance has been cancelled. No previous notice, no "heads-up", no nothing. Just a big F-you!!! | ||
| Odie |
People are rated for everyday mundane life and not racing/track days. I guess I'll wrap myself in bubble wrap, put on a football helmet and lay on the couch and watch T.V. so I can arrive at deaths door all safe and sound!!!!  | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Unfortunately it don't work that way." Of course you are right. And you are also right about things that are in the contract, well then they are in the contract and we need to live with that. The higher the risk (track day, race day, etc, etc) is a high risk compared to riding to work. Inherently racing is a dangerous sport and a risk insurers don't want to take on. My point is that track riding is NOT racing, my argument is that track riding is NOT more hazardous than street riding. If I go to a street night at the local dragway and take a few laps, am I engaging in racing? Two bikes run at the same time because there are two lanes, there is no race, there is no "winner", no points, no prizes. I am just running my bike in a legal way for my entertainment. There are no animals, kids, toys, oil, sand, or cars anywhere around me. I am in full gear. Fire trucks and ambulances are standing by. How is this riskier than the commute I took to work this morning? According to Webter's: Racing Noun 1. The sport of engaging in contests of speed. Where is the contest in a street night or track day? If you think this IS racing, then if you drop your bike at anything other than legal speeds, or in any manner that is not legal,and especially if you are street racing (no one here does that right?) then your claim, including medical, should be declined right? I at one point in time, was licensed to sell insurance and financial products in 3 states. Maybe you sell/sold insurance too, but if you think that some (most or all)insurance co.'s don't look for a way out of every claim, or too pay the absolute minimum they can get away with, you are wrong. Ask Nick about the great post hospital care he insurance co. allowed, I'm sure it was in the fine print somewhere and helped to keep our rates down..... | ||
| Bomber |
it's good to be familiar with exactly what you're buying, and what you're not -- my insurance will happily write a rider to cover me for racing or track days (which they view as the same thing), but I've decided to forgo the option caveat emptor, or words to that affect ;-} | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
my insurance will happily write a rider to cover me for racing or track days (which they view as the same thing), but I've decided to forgo the option Yeah, that is the problem isn't it? But race or ride like an a$$ on the street and you are covered! How much was the rider? | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Well Bomber found a writer to cover that exposure. You should share that with the group to see if they can help others. What kind of additional premium do they look for to take on the risk? Its like anything else we purchase, read the fine print if there is something your unsure of, don't plead ignorant when an incident occurrs. And what that insurer did to Dennis was indeed a crappy thing to do. They should have confirmed what you were using it for and thats what your state regulator is there for. I'm not arguing what the difference of a track day or race is as different insurers will look at it in different ways. They are all unique to themselves. Here all insurers must use the same wording so there is no discrepancy when issuing coverage. What Insurer A covers is exactly the same as Insurer B. Its interesting in that one of the excluded uses in our contract it "Any Race or Speed Test" now thats a broad term. Basically cover can be declined while involved in any kind of race (Drag Racing) or while out on a highway seeing what the machine can attain for top speed. Of course thats a hard one prove. Our Insurance is heavily regulated even to the point of rating, the rates from insurer to insurer may only vary about 10-15% which puts them on a very level playing field. The rates are then reviewed by the Public Utilities Board and adjusted accordingly. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Just to be clear, I made the points I made to point out that insurers are calling things "high risk" when in fact they are, arguably safer. What they are really doing is leaving themselves as many ways out of paying as is possible. Pretty much the same mentality that allows the oil companies to say that prices are higher due to "regional uncertainties and refinery capacity" while they make record profits. I would bet that if you had the money and nothing better to do with it (yeah, right) and sued them, that there wouldn't be any basis or research showing track days to be more risky than street riding. Since nobody is going to do that- it stays as is. I've seen life insurance riders for racing (and flying airplanes), but not vehicle coverage. | ||
| Bomber |
Scott -- truthfully, it was quite a while ago, so I do no remember the exact figure -- also, insurance is so variable (age, record, state, amount of other things covered) that a apples-toapples comparison is very difficult to achieve I will tell you that, fearing the treatment Lake got, I called my company in the guise of a new customer, asked for rates on my car, home, bike and racing, and got a detailed breakdown from them if you're busted for "displays of speed" (AKA reckless driving) in most states in the US, your carrier may not cover any claims that occur as a result of that -- in other words, if you ride like an a$$ on the street and get caught, you will prolly not collect any dough my views on the insurance industry are not germain to this -- just make sure you understand the contract into which you are entering -- if not, your bad, yes? it's comforting to imagine vast conspiricies dedicated to verious and sundry malactions -- the truth is very often much more prosaic | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
}my views on the insurance industry are not germain to this -- just make sure you understand the contract into which you are entering -- if not, your bad, yes? That's for sure! it's just unfortunate (ok, ridiculous) that you have to pretend to be someone else, for fear of being cancelled, just to do the "right thing" and find out if coverage is even available. All of the above are reasons I pay extra to have an agent, who personally has all of my business and many of my friends policies as well as their friends too. I know I will get treated fairly or her pocketbook is going to hurt too! (Message edited by scott_in_nh on April 26, 2006) | ||
| Newfie_buell |
BINGO | ||
| Bomber |
double bingo -- my agent's been able to cut through the miasma on a number of occasion -- only way to go, IMO | ||
| Tom_b |
Most insurance companies will not only not pay vehicle damage from track day wrecks, but unless you have a special rider on your policy, most HEALTH and LIFE policies can void coverage if "engaged in a speed contest or race, official or otherwise". Which sounds to me like not only the track, but if it can be proven street racing too! | ||
| Cochise |
Dude, if you wanna play, you gonna have to pay. Insurance is for mishaps that occur while street riding. You want your insurance company to cover you when you're doing track days or drag racing? Sit down and think about that for a minute. Thats ridiculous. Man up, pay up. You broke it, you fix it. I wouldn't say I'm ridiculous, it's just a question. I also have no problem paying to fix my own bike, I was just hoping somebody knew an insurance provider who did. I was quoted a policy for $5,095 for a year and told them they were nuckin' futz! | ||
| Mrvvrroomm |
Pay me $5095 up front and I'LL insure you for 1 season, 1 bike. I'll cover the damage to your Buell for any accident you live through. | ||
| Cochise |
 Hell, I could buy a 12 O'Clock bar, Cage and all that so there will be no damage what soever, but I can't do THAT. Besides, that is the first time I have had any of my bikes at ANY track. OK, I guess so far, I haven't done very well. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Thats why most people don't insure track bikes. | ||
| Bomber |
Co -- on the other hand, you are asking the insurance company to be willing to give you money to fix a bike that you've proven you will, perhaps, ground loop at the strip -- while not an insurance guy, that don't sound like a good bet to me, and insurance is ALL about betting, innit? oh, and  | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
while not an insurance guy, that don't sound like a good bet to me, and insurance is ALL about betting, innit? Sure it is, they bet he wouldn't crash it- he did, they should pay and make him up his ante for the next hand! Those that have proven themselves to be a high risk should pay more. Those who have proven themselves to be a low risk should pay less. But I guess that makes too much sense.... What's next? You have to sign an affidavit saying you won't participate in any kind of hooligan riding/racing/etc. for as long as you have a loan on the bike, so the the lender won't have financial exposure to a loss? GPS sender so that they can tell if you speed? (I know it is a mute point. All he can do now is push away from the table and go to a different casino) (Message edited by scott_in_nh on April 27, 2006) | ||
| Bomber |
er, Scott -- unless I'm confused, he was not isured for dragracing hi-risk, hi-pay IS the model that's used -- you can validly argue the definitions of hi-lo-risk, but at the conceptual level, that's how it works I agree, it's a PITA for sure, but it's a known and understandable PITA, so you CAN switch casinos if you want (great analogy, btw!) | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
er, Scott -- unless I'm confused, he was not isured for dragracing agreed,I'm not arguing that under the circumstances he got screwed, I'm saying the system is screwed and just like Vegas odds, the odds here are also in the house's favor hi-risk, hi-pay IS the model that's used -- you can validly argue the definitions of hi-lo-risk, but at the conceptual level, that's how it works agreed, my argument, as you point out, is the validity (or lack there of) of what the insurance companies call "high risk" I agree, it's a PITA for sure, but it's a known and understandable PITA, so you CAN switch casinos if you want (great analogy, btw!) Known? yes. Fair? no. choices? none really! (Message edited by scott_in_nh on April 27, 2006) | ||
| Zxzer04 |
The higher the risk (track day, race day, etc, etc) is a high risk compared to riding to work. Yeah Right, You must have better 4 wheel crazies(I mean drivers) than us. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Don't progressive and Gieco heavily advertise during shows that feature and promote track days as the safest way to explore your bikes performance? I cannot believe an insurance co. would be so two faced! | ||
| Bomber |
Scott -- got it -- we're in violent agreement on most points ;-} ZX -- I ain't gonna touch that one (bigger grin) | ||
| Cochise |
In my defense, I didn't come on here to bitch about my insurance, I simply askedif there is a company that will take care of track days. I have drag raced at stop lights since I have been riding and this is my first accident of those drag races. I am going to dragrace again and am pretty confident that I am not going to loop it again, and if I do it will be dragged again, except this time it will be dragged to the street. Thanks for the laughs  I'll see you at the drags and at the track. |
