| Author | Message | ||
     Ryker77 |
IMO this is the serious issue along with the "war". | ||
| Outrider |
In the early 1970's, a friend of mine was an INS Officer and attained for quite a few years the highest annual arrest record of all INS agents in the country. The irony of that record is he was located right here in Milwaukee and his territory was the State of Wisconsin. To follow that one step further, compliments of our current Governor, Wisconsin not only issues regular drivers licenses to illegals, they subsidize home mortgages for them as well. Still, it's a great place to live if you can handle the weather and taxes. Whoops, almost forgot the lack of employment compliments of both domestic and foreign outsourcing. Most of our major industries are long gone as a result and that exodus began in the 50's and 60's. To correct that, the same Gov now has us in a partners in technology arrangement with Chinese corporations. Can't wait to see how that turns out since all it has accomplished to date is a further decline in jobs and the export of high tech to those that have already shafted America's greatest corporations like GE and Westinghouse on the international playing field. Still the Gov's PR Campaign keeps telling us how good it is for us. What's that got to do with illegal's. A lot, since it looks like we are back to cottage industry just to generate income for ourselves. It used to mean restaurant and landscape maintenance work for them, but even those companies and jobs are being started and worked by the existing citizens. Not sure where the illegals plan on working since our need for migrant farm workers and factory workers has gone away compliments of giving away our technology and outsourcing the related jobs. In conclusion, I would welcome any alien, preferably legal, that wants to come here, learn the language, laws, customs and be a productive part of society. The only catch is, that is after the existing citizenry is gainfully employed and there is a job surplus. Funny, that's how my family tree got here from Norway and Germany in 1897 and 1906. | ||
| Raraf |
Make them learn english! That is hilarious. I worked at Columbia Sportswear and most of the people working for me were Ethiopian or from Laos. I would tell em "Hey! You are in America now ...speak spanish!" Spanish will soon be the most widely spoken language in the world...don't fight it! http://www.speroforum.com/blog/entry.asp?ENTRY_ID=641&wa=25 Go with it. Look what fighting the metric system got the good ole US! The US doesn't even speak English. It is a bastardized version. When I worked at Nike, we were trying to figure out a way to communicate with the vietnamese portion that worked there. Some lady piped up angrily "They need to learn english!" I said "No, we need to learn vietnamese" Sure enough, I printed out signs in both vietnamese and english. The vietnamese people were happy to see someone trying to learn vietnamese and they tried to learn english. They even started a lunch program to brown bag their lunch and learn english. Reach for the hand man don't slap it. (Message edited by raraf on April 11, 2006) | ||
| Bomber |
Raraf Absofreakinglutely! well said! | ||
| Mfell2112 |
Hey Raraf there are variations of most languages including spanish. American English is not quite the same as The Queens English but all in all it is English just the same. The rest of the world can speak spanish and do metric till the cows come home but in America it is English and that is how it is going to stay. Are we as Americans supposed to learn ten different languages to accomadate immigrants? Our Constitution was written in English. The official language of the United states of America is English. Anybody that doesn't like it can high tail it back to where they came from. You come here do so legally and learn our language. If you do not you are showing disrespect to our country,our laws and our culture. We are not here to accomadate and take care of people who come here illegally despite what the morons on Capitol hill are saying. Mike | ||
| Blake |
"If "coming to agreement" is your success metric here, be mindful you'd be better off running a race with one foot nailed down." Court, Wouldn't you know as soon as you posted that the heavens would align and el mucho grandé Ryker would post that... "We agree." Gotta love it.  I'm outa here!  | ||
| Josh_ |
>The official language of the United states of America is English. The US does not have an official language. I know of a country who's population viewed the US stance against illegals in a very negative light ... until their economy improved and their neighbors flooded in. Your view changes when it happens to you. Yet many opposed NAFTA and other measures to improve Mexico's economy. what do you call someone who speaks two languages? bilingual what do you call someone who speaks one language? American (Message edited by josh_ on April 11, 2006) | ||
| Court |
>>>>Anybody that doesn't like it can high tail it back to where they came from. As much fun as this is to discuss, the facts don't support our collective high mindedness. I live in a city where Taxi drivers speak 163 different languages (and consume something like 18% of the Crown Vics made each year) and each and everyone of them can at least understand "50th and 5th and if you try getting on the FDR I'll drag you our of the seat and drive myself". I have what may be bad news for some, alarming for others and common sense to others. The world is changing. The discussion has quantum parallels to our recent chat about "global sourcing". I just bought a yard stick (Bomber likely remembers when there was a bucket of them as you walked out of the hardware store) and paid $4.54 for one that was clearly marked Made in China. My guess, and it's no more than that, is that efficiencies and realities of production dictate making a wooden stick in China and shipping it to New York City. I wish they'd have included Metric markings at least. The last century has taken us places we never dreamed we'd go. Somewhere between the Luddites and Buck Rogers are those, like the folks on the mega-coaster, who are giggling and enjoying the ride. I count myself among them. I try to hold as few preconceived notions about what the world MUST look like, while simultaneously maintaining a set of personal values by which to navigate. I never dreamed I'd call half-way round the world, much less that 1/3 of my cell phone bills would be to Europe and Australia each month to people riding motorcycles that would have been declared impossible by most. I like this. Years ago I spent sometime on a speaking circuit talking about paradigms and technology. I've got to run into a meeting, but let me share a quick example I used to use about "rate of change". My Grandmother Canfield was born in 1899 and had fairly vivid memories of "flying" as being the "lunatic fringe". There were a few barnstormers that traveled the circuit through Kansas and Nebraska, but flying was pretty much seen as a fool's pursuit. My uncle is an Astronaut and a physician. During a period of his life he ran a sideshow as Chief Pathologist at Eisenhower Medical Center in Palm Desert, running his own private path lab and chattering a personal fleet of 3 Beech King Airs. One of the FUN THINGS he did was to throw the annual bash for the Astronauts going back to the Red Stone rocket and Friendship 7 days. Neigh on about 1988, Grandma, in a state of decaying health, was living with Sandy and Craig in Indian Wells during the time they were tossing the annual bash. She's in her room when Aunt Sandy comes in and asks her "come on out on the patio and eat". She did. About 6 months later, just before she passed away, she reveled in telling me how fascinated and excluded she felt from the dinner conversation. There were 5 people at the table; she was the only one who had not walked on the moon! That, at least to me in the day of the TRS80 (ask someone older), was a powerful indicator of the rate at which technology is changing our world. I submit that our culture is changing as rapidly. I think we can do this without subverting our heritage. Henrik. . . . will always be a Great Dane AND an American. Court | ||
| Roc |
Ryker77 – I think your graphs showing immigrant population growth assumes that the descendants of immigrants continue to produce many offspring, historically reproduction drops off as the women become more educated. This thread is probably the most educated discussion I have found on this topic. In regard to illegal aliens, where does the 12 million # come from? I have heard a range from 9-12 million. | ||
| Roc |
Just an idea - should we pull troops from Iraq and take over Mexico? Seems like it might be of benefit to everyone. | ||
| Ryker77 |
Roc, I too am pleased that the thread stayed on a more factual track. The 9-20 million number is based on alot of things. For example 100,000 people per month try to cross the southern border. Border partol says that for every one they catch 2-3 get by. Thus the 1 million increase per year. Other estimates are based on census counts and information from local communities. Like number of housing per area. Or you could just watch the TV-- thousands are marching in the street! "take over Mexico".. same problems would exist. We the tax payer would then pay for a third world country. And we would still have an open southern border -- just not Mexico. | ||
| Bomber |
Court -- as per usual, you've raised some points that many on this thread will ignore, as it's not vitriolic enough -- break break it almost immaterial how many illegal immigrants are here -- 9 million, 12 million, it's an issue that will clearly not go away on it's own -- I'll assume that the suggestion to invade a soveriegn nation was either tongue in cheek, or otherwise meant to be humorous -- it's so laughable as to have gone past funny at a high rate of speed this entire thread reminds me ofr a town not far from where I live -- very nice suburb, very upscale, way past what I could ever afford -- the families that have lived there since the 1860s, when it was founded, are a pretty down to earth lot -- those that have moved in the last 20 years or so continually lobby to close all development, stop supporting the park districts, vote against school district referenda -- a very clear case of "I got mine -- the rest of you people go pound sand." sad -- | ||
| Roc |
I really don't think we should invade anywhere. However, Iraq was a soveriegn nation. Maybe Mexico could vote on it? It will be "as American as our 51st state, Saudi-Israelia". The 9 or 12 million does not bother me so much, it is the range of 3 million that no one knows about. | ||
| Ryker77 |
He does have a point about Iraq. Iraq isn't much different that Mexico. I don't think anybody can say the Mexican government is for there own people. Bomber, can you not agree that there are some places that are perfect and don't need change? While many other areas could use alot of change. The is a government of the people by the people. If the people of a town or county wishes to do something then that is there right! For example many places in america are "dry" not alchol can be sold. The people in that area want it that way ---thus it is. While other areas enjoy alchol, DUI, and crime so they are not "dry". Just like my state has a no smoking in ANY food place. I like it that way. If I move to another state I would hope they have the same laws. We voted and we got what we wanted. Majority rules. | ||
| Outrider |
"I got mine -- the rest of you people go pound sand." My translation of that would be "I've got mine--Go earn yours." In the event they can't, there is either something wrong with our Government, Corporations and Economy or the problem lies within the people themselves. Just my opinion tossed out for thought and it is not focused on the folks that migrate here from Mexico, either legally or not. | ||
| Ryker77 |
"I've got mine--Go earn yours." The American way. You earn it. Ask not what your government can do for you. But what you can do for yourself!!! And for sure-- Ask nothing from a government that is NOT YOUR OWN. | ||
| Bomber |
Ryker -- well, I would disagree that no place is perfect -- none, nada -- but, if the voters express their desire for something (like no smoking in any food place), they should have that, certainly (btw, as a non-smoker for the last 2 years, I find the hoorah around no smoking in any food place a ilttle odd -- until 3 months ago, there were more than 10 joints that allowed no smoking in my area, and one that did -- pretty easy to avoid the smoking joint, if that's what you desired -- however, the city board decided that one smoking joint was too many, and passed an ordinance outlawing smoking in any eatery -- they all patted each other on the back heartily, and declared victory against those ghastly smokers -- this was the same board that, a few years agao, voted the town a nuke free zone, and passed a law against the manufacture of handguns within the village limits -- ) of course it's the people's right to vote for the environment they desire -- there is also, in many writings from the founding fathers, expressed concern about the "tyranny of the majority." can you name said founding father? in any event, I kinda doubt of the majority of people in the US would vote for a return to a Wilsonian world view, or sliding into a pre-Rooseveltian role in the world -- if for no other reason, we couldn't afford our Escalades and Humemrs if we were to do so, and the US voter has prooven, time and time again, to vote their wallets first . . . . . I find your statement that many areas enjoy alcohol, DUI, and crime extremely illuminating (like they are inexoribly linked) -- I lived in a dry county for quite some time -- DUI, domestic battery, and illegal consumption of alcohol by minors was several times the rates in the surrounding, "wet," counties -- but, the good burgers of that county could congratulate themselves on saving their neighbors from the evils of deamon alcohol chuckle | ||
| Outrider |
Interesting commentary about alcohol and smoking. Sort of reminds you of Prohibition and how that didn't work. Gee, think I will sit back and count the many freedoms, benefits and opportunities that have been taken away from me by the various American Governments during my short 58 years on earth. Funny how a many of those benefits went away and came back in another form that will never benefit anyone that has worked hard and provided for their family. Then the interesting part about that is that those benefits are going to American citizens and legal aliens as well as the illegals. Interesting how the "redistribution of wealth" in America has caused more problems for our Society than it has cured. Social programs to improve society is great but to support it creates a pathetic situation. Without going political, I think I will close with Teddy Roosevelt's position on immigration as it promotes America. The following is from NetLore and includes the PC corrections at the bottom. Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants Netlore Archive: Emailed quotation in which Theodore Roosevelt insists that every immigrant must become 'an American, and nothing but an American,' forsaking their native language for English and all other flags for the American flag Description: Emailed quotation Circulating since: Oct 2005 Status: Authentic/Erroneously dated Analysis: See below Email example contributed by Alan H., 29 Oct. 2005: Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN "In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." Theodore Roosevelt 1907 Comments: Theodore Roosevelt indeed wrote these words, but not in 1907 while he was still president. The passages were culled from a letter he wrote to the president of the American Defense Society on January 3, 1919, three days before Roosevelt died. "Americanization" was a favorite theme of Roosevelt's during his later years, when he railed repeatedly against "hyphenated Americans" and the prospect of a nation "brought to ruins" by a "tangle of squabbling nationalities." He advocated the compulsory learning of English by every naturalized citizen. "Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or to leave the country," he said in a statement to the Kansas City Star in 1918. "English should be the only language taught or used in the public schools." He also insisted, on more than one occasion, that America has no room for what he called "fifty-fifty allegiance." In a speech made in 1917 he said, "It is our boast that we admit the immigrant to full fellowship and equality with the native-born. In return we demand that he shall share our undivided allegiance to the one flag which floats over all of us." | ||
| Raraf |
Mfell2112 Sez: Anybody that doesn't like it can high tail it back to where they came from. You come here do so legally and learn our language. So you are essentially saying that the US should give back the lands they stole from broken treaties back to the REAL Americans and you are going to learn Apache or go back to Europe? Great thing about being Mexican is that when they don't learn the language 'can high tail' it back to Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada since they were there looooonnggg before the 'Americans' came over. Craftman and SnapOn would like to thank you for making sure I have to buy two types of sockets to work on my Buell. Wow. | ||
| Outrider |
Craftman and SnapOn would like to thank you for making sure I have to buy two types of sockets to work on my Buell. Would think that Buell did that to us and that it possibly is the result of international outsourcing. | ||
| Raraf |
Yeah imagine that! Buell not being xenophobes and dealing with the world! | ||
| Blake |
Someone post another graph. I like graphs. | ||
| Mikej |
   Form your own conclusions, causes, effects, extrapolations | ||
| Ryker77 |
for blake,   Not sure if those are legal or illegal immigration. Net immigration- Russia: 1.03 Sweden: 1.67 Switzerland: 3.58 Denmark: 2.53 Belgium: 1.23 Croatia: 1.58 Singapore: 10.30 Hong Kong: 5.24 New Zealand: 3.83 Canada: 5.90 European Union: 1.50 Net emigration- Negatives Mexico: -4.57 Cuba: -1.58 Bolivia: -1.27 Brazil: -0.03 Colombia: -0.31 Dominican Republic: -3.02 Ecuador: -6.07 El Salvador: -3.67 Guatemala: -1.63 Honduras: -1.95 Nicaragua: -1.19 Panama: -0.86 Peru: -1.03 China: -0.40 Saudi Arabia: -3.85 Pakistan: -1.67 | ||
| Mikej |
That's a whole lot of Central and South American countries on that negative list. So is a negative emigration the same as a positive immigration? | ||
| Ryker77 |
 and you must wonder why the feds approve of Hummers over small diesel powered cars. The more gas you burn the more they earn. | ||
| Ryker77 |
 March 2001, 1.6 million jobs have disappeared, representing a 1.2% contraction. The Bureau of Labor Statistics began collecting monthly jobs data in 1939 (at the end of the Great Depression). In every previous episode of recession and job decline since 1939, the number of jobs had fully recovered to above the pre-recession peak within 31 months of the start of the recession. Today's labor market would have 5.2 million more jobs if employment had grown by the 2.7% rate that occurred in the last three recession cycles. The picture is worse for private-sector jobs, which have dropped by 2.2 million since March 2001, representing a 2.0% contraction. | ||
| Ryker77 |
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| Jackbequick |
Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907. "In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." I like it, become an American or don't come. We don't make any unreasonable demands of newcomers. That kind of thinking got us this far, no sense in changing the plan now. Jack | ||
| Mfell2112 |
"He advocated the compulsory learning of English by every naturalized citizen. "Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or to leave the country," he said in a statement to the Kansas City Star in 1918. "English should be the only language taught or used in the public schools." He also insisted, on more than one occasion, that America has no room for what he called "fifty-fifty allegiance." In a speech made in 1917 he said, "It is our boast that we admit the immigrant to full fellowship and equality with the native-born. In return we demand that he shall share our undivided allegiance to the one flag which floats over all of us." Thanks Outrider. Roosevelt was a very very wise man and he was 100% correct in his thinking. Judging by the responses or lack there of some in here don't agree with the man and they sure as heck will not debate the issue or the true genius of Roosevelt's statments. Regards Mike |
