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     Blake |
And even that is deceitful in that it chooses a baseline of 1970. Why not start in 1900? Boy would that look scary. The entire population would be in the immigrant and descendants category. It is silly. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Cochise |
My family are immigrants also, everybody get over it. Everybody knows an immigrant, most everybody has probably had relations with an immigrant. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buellgrrrl |
Some of you Good Ol' Boys need to get off the internet and go for a ride. Get on the old US highways- 2, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, etc. in the middle of the country and head west. You'll see lots of wide open spaces ready to be filled by new immigrants. In fact, some of the towns are so far apart you'll wish there were more immigrants to open up a gas station before you run out of gas in them wide open spaces... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
The era since 1970 has been a unique period of American history. It is the only time that the federal government and the American people have moved in opposite directions in creating the country's demographic future: The American people have chosen family sizes that allow for a stablized U.S. population; the federal government has chosen policies to force never-ending U.S. population growth. The year 1970 is around the time of several great changes in America: 1. It was around 1970 -- the year of the first Earth Day -- when the American people made a collective commitment to stop squandering their environmental resources and to restore the natural world within their nation's borders to a healthy and sustainable quality. Major laws were passed and agencies established to see that the environmental goals were met. The American people and U.S. companies spent billions of dollars to meet the goals. 2. It was around 1970 that most environmental experts began to agree that it would be difficult for the nation to reach its environmental goals without stabilizing its population at a level not too much higher than the 203 million with which the country began the decade. 3. Although no official population goal was set, a bi-partisan presidential-congressional commission recommended moving toward a stable population to meet environmental, economic and social goals that had been adopted during the Johnson and Nixon administrations. 4. In 1972, the American people -- fresh from a historic Baby Boom -- lowered their fertility to "replacement level." Ever since, American fertility has been low enough to allow the population size eventually to stabilize. 5. It was around 1970 that the number of legal immigrants allowed into the country began to rise rapidly as a result of a change in the law back in 1965. Since 1970, there have been two contradictory blueprints for the nation's population future: THE PEOPLE'S BLUEPRINT: The American people since just after 1970 have adopted behaviors and attitudes that -- on their own -- would move the nation toward a stabilized population size. Through millions of individual and highly personal choices, Americans have adopted on average a family size of two or fewer children while telling pollsters they want a stabilized national population. WASHINGTON'S BLUEPRINT: Since just before 1970, each Congress and each President has adopted a policy allowing immigration far in excess of traditional levels and moving the nation toward constant population increases. The charts on these pages show how these conflicting visions have affected the demographic direction of the United States. As a Census year, 1970 offers the most logical starting point for measurement. By starting the charts at 1970, we measure what has happened since around the beginning of the era in which the majority of individual Americans in one way or another embraced population stabilization as a goal. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
"New immigrants and their descendents" Please, virtually all of us qualify under that description. That graph is horribly deceitful on so many levels. Not really, Blake. The red represents all the immigrants who have arrived -- or are projected to arrive -- since 1970, plus their descendants, minus deaths. Of the around 130 million people projected to be added to the United States by 2050, around 90% are represented in the red block on the chart. To find similar population growth in foreign countries, we must look to the Third World. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
Blake I agree with you that the color charts I posted or hard to read. I spend a few seconds trying to find more info. All I could find is that the data comes from the census. Immigration contributes over one million people to the U.S. population annually. The total foreign-born population in the U.S. is now 31.1 million, a record 57 percent increase since 1990. About 8 million of those are here illegally--a 4.5 million increase since 1990. Almost one-third of all immigration during the 1990s was illegal. US Census age distribution, fertility, and mortality data shows that if there had been no immigration to the U.S. since 1990, the population in 2000 would have been 262 million–19 million less than the 281 million counted. Thus, post-1990 immigrants and their children accounted for 61 percent of population growth during the last decade. The United States has the highest growth rates of any industrialized country in the world. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The U.S. population is growing by about 3.2 million people each year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Using the Census Bureau's medium projections, U.S. population is expected to grow to 400 million by the year 2050. Eight states have population growth rates over 2.0%, which means their population will double in less than 35 years. Florida’s population has grown from 1.9 million in 1940 to 15 million today. That is over a 600% increase in just 50 years. http://www.npg.org/states/state_index.htm use this web site to see what your state and county populations level is and were. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
We are a nation of immigrants. How can we support immigration reduction? If responsible parents limit their family sizes so that they can better care for their existing children, shouldn't America stabilize its population so that it can better provide for its existing legal residents? In addition, circumstances in this country have changed. The United States is still the greatest debtor nation on Earth, while some 39 million Americans of diverse racial backgrounds still live in poverty. Why don't we give those  Americans first the opportunity to live the American Dream? If the U.S. continues to lose farm land at its current rates, by 2040, this country will not be able to export food. If the U.S. population growth continues, from which countries should we import food to feed our growing population? can we say China! do we want or need this? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bomber |
"The era since 1970 has been a unique period of American history. " Good call Ryker - -it certainly has! of course, every 35 year era in US history (as well as American history -- they ain't the same, ya know) has been unique -- I suggest you take some history, now that you're a full time student -- you may find some data that alters the way to interpet that which you've been posting | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/natproj.html Almost one-third of the current population growth is caused by net immigration. By 2000, the Nation's population is pro-jected to be 8 million larger than it would have been if there were no net immigration after July 1, 1992. By 2050, this difference would increase to 82 million. In fact, about 86 percent of the population growth during the year 2050 may be due to the effects of post-1992 net immigration. compare the 86% growth to the estimated worlds growth- a 0.46% increase. can you do the math. http://www.npg.org/facts/world_pop_year.htm | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| CJXB |
I was an immigrant (not illegal though), I've lived in US since I was 4 years old, didn't become a citizen until I was 19 years old, and I've been here a really long time as I'm old !! My opinion is that while I'm lucky and happy to be here, you guys are all lucky to have me !!!  Lighten up, you guys aren't going to solve the illegal immigration issue, don't spend all your time here trying to !! Weather's getting nice even here in the frozen tundra, take some time to ride !!  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
And were glad to have you. But I disagree I will help solve the illegal intruder problems. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Oldog |
Court: Nice pix of Ellis? Island All it was in the 40's here good riding weather today clear cool but sunny, I rode in to work Vs the great white Ford Truck save that gas and have fun too. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
What Bomber said - dang will I ever tire of saying that  - and you may want to reconsider your main premise, that population growth in America is a bad thing. Highly respected experts in the field and a lot of thoughtful folks hold that significant population growth is vitally important to the ongoing prosperity and well-being of America. The graphs you posted are deceitful in how they seek to skew perception. They demonstrate a horrible lack of objectivity. They are designed to push hard one particular viewpoint. You can believe me or not, but I am not exaggerating when I say that an engineer would risk losing his job if he saw fit to present data in that fashion. It ain't honest. Period. I wonder if you'd care to do some research and find the near countless examples of notable respected Americans who belong to the post-1970 immigration statistics you see fit to hold up as some kind of fearsome evidence of impending doom. The issue should not be one of immigration. The valid issue in my mind is more one of Americanization. I don't like importing a new and separate society withing a society. Immigrants need to be able to speak English before gaining citizenship. The good news is that their descendants almost always do learn to speak English well. For the good of America and the students, the primary language in ALL American classrooms must be English. Period. Interesting story: Czech was the first language of my father-in-law and mother-in-law. Their parents immigrated as small children with their immediate families. They only learned to speak English when they attended the local public schools. Their parents insisted they learn English. Smart parents. Their parents then also soon learned English. Great Americans all of them. Might want to check up on the immigration stats for France, Germany, and England. Pretty sure their stats will contradict some of what you are contending. In fact, some of those countries appear to be facing a serious problem right now with some of their muslim immigrants. Again, the issue for me is not one of immigration, but one of assimilation. We need the immigrants. We also need them to learn to speak English at some point. How cool was it to see a half million folks in Dallas marching in white shirts and carrying American flags? Way cool! Those folks are loyal Americans and I have no doubt that a significant number of them were not legally in country. Frankly, I dig living in Texas. The Mexican culture is really cool. I firmly believe that an all-white America would be a much poorer America. While I abhor the sins and horrendous brutalities that accompanied slavery in America; I am grateful for so many of the descendants of that regrettable misery, folks that help make America the greatest and most envied nation on the planet. In the end, my view is that they are typically the best, most determined, and most ambitious who choose to leave their homes to join the great melting pot. That hasn't changed since the time of Columbus. Has it? Buck up white man. Don't fear change, cause it is coming and there ain't anything we can do about it. That is one of the defining and most laudable characteristics of America, is it not? Pretty sure that our current Attorney General fits into the post 1970 demographic stats you posted. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
In case you missed it...  Like I said before, the premise of choosing 1970 is troubling. It smacks of racism. Also questionable are the projections, shown dotted in the above. I wonder how many of the American military casualties from Iraq and Aghanistan would fit into the post-1970 immigrant family stat? I significant number I'd wager. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
That link you posted. This one... http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/natproj.html THAT appears to be an honest presentation of the statistics. Excellent! That is the type of honest form of analysis that an engineer would be expected to present. Surely you can see the difference. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
"How cool was it to see a half million folks in Dallas marching in white shirts and carrying American flags? Way cool! Those folks are loyal Americans " Loyal-- and demanding food stamps, WIC, free health care.. Etc etc. I posted why the chart started at 1970.. Perhaps you missed it. "I wonder how many of the American military casualties from Iraq and Aghanistan would fit into the post-1970 immigrant family stat? I significant number I'd wager." doesn't really matter IMO. Becuase I am talking about the FUTURE. Not yesterday. I served with alot of green card holders. They did there job just like I did. But once again I am talking about the future. Use of the R word in wrong. I don't care what color they are. They could be blue eyed Germans--- Still doesn't matter. Your the one that called me "white man" even though I am part Cherokee. "In the end, my view is that they are typically the best, most determined, and most ambitious who choose to leave their homes to join the great melting pot." Drug dealers are also determined and ambitious. Your point is moot. Both are illegal -- the law is the law. Illegal is Illegal. fake ID False driver license driving with out license driving with out insurance filling false welfare-food stamps- WIC evasion of federal taxes evasion of state taxes credit card fraud SSI fraud Identiy theft mail fraud voter fraud etc etc Numerous laws that are getting broken. Its wrong and send a terrible message. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
" In fact, some of those countries appear to be facing a serious problem right now with some of their muslim immigrants. " Just like us. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bomber |
What Bomber said - dang will I ever tire of saying that? I THOUGHT I felt a disturbance in the force ;-} Ryker -- it's clear that you have given the issue some thought -- excellent! Me too -- equally excellent. we agree on a number of point -- totally excellent! we disagree on others -- tubularly excellent, as that's OK what is equally clear is that your position is not to be altered -- which is fine mine too (lacking data which I've not seen anywhere) give it up, sir, is my advice (trying to alter others views, that is) -- I will buy you the best bottle of single malt, unblended scotch whiskey I can find if you can cite a single instance of someone's point of view being altered via a discussion on the internet. I'll even ship it to ya, if you ain't in my neck of the woods is there a problem? you betcha who's responsible? darned near the entire society (macdonald's customers, those that employ illegal workers, their customers, their customer's customers . .. . there is responsibility enough to go around) which is good, methinks, as it means we should ALL be involved in the solution | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| CJXB |
They could be blue eyed Germans--- Still doesn't matter. Does Matter !! Green eyed germans are prettier, smarter, sassier ... well ok maybe not, I'm green eyed german (why does my eye color matter?), but I speak English, well unless you count redneck as not very good English !! Ya'll there ??!!  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
"I will buy you the best bottle of single malt, unblended scotch whiskey I can find if you can cite a single instance of someone's point of view being altered via a discussion on the internet." Hey! Can I get in on this?  Ryker, Most folks don't share your view that all the crimes and poor behavior are assignable to one particular group of folks/immigrants. I think most thoughtful folk recognize that such poor behavior as you have listed is endemic throughout and spread across a much wider demographic than you seem to imagine. BTW, has not the welfare program been fairly well-reformed. Is there not now a very reasonable set limit to how long someone may collect welfare? I thought so. I could be wrong. And, your graphs, which are what I was addressing above, do not comment upon illegal immigrants. I oppose illegal immigration. The vast majority of immigrants in America are perfectly legal. To be perfectly frank, it is difficult to read your commentary and not find it bigotted, on account of it is appears to be virtually all anti-immigrant and highly negative. Like I said before, suggest you try understanding the case for positive immigration population growth in America. It worked well in the early 20th century. It can and will work well in the early 21st century too. I'm not as tolerant as Bomber. I tend to draw a line and take a stand on some issues and some things are just not okay with me. You are near to crossing that line. Hate is a terrible miserable destructive evil force and I want nothing to do with it or even the hint of it on BadWeB. So... let's see if we can simply end on agreement as follows: Secure our borders? YES! Amnesty for illegal immigrants? NO! Deport 12 million folks who snuck in? NO! Compell them to learn English, pay their due fines and back taxes, and become productive American citizens? YES! Agree that people in general commit crimes. Generally poor folks and folks from broken homes commit more crimes than more well-off, well-reared folks. It has nothing to do with race. YES! Avoid hate and commentary that might easily be misinterpreted as hateful and/or bigotted? YES! Deal? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
How the heck do you spell "compel"? Oh, one "L" never mind. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bomber |
Blake -- course you can, buddy -- simply show up at the entropy lab for homecoming (hint, you won't be the onliest texan in residence that weekend), and the entire bottle will be yours as for tolerant, I darned near blew coffee through my nose at that one -- one and I both know better than that ;-} I have simply recognized that my persuasive abilities over the internet are not as good as they are in person (with scotch!) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Oldog |
Green Eyed German: Dated one of those girls! [ huge grin ] She was most certainly exceptional in many ways, good about that immigration thing. Dating her was an........experience CJxb Thats' "Ya'll he-yah" [2 words]  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Here's some interesting data...
Sources: http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0029/twps0029.html and other reports from http://www.census.gov/ Don't panic, but we are below average for the past 150 years.  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Court |
>>>you guys are all lucky to have me ! That is an accurate statement. If "coming to agreement" is your success metric here, be mindful you'd be better off running a race with one foot nailed down. Appreciate discussion, listen to other views, widen your world. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| CJXB |
CJxb Thats' "Ya'll he-yah" Oh yea he-yah, I gotta get away from Wisconsin before I totally forget how to speak southernese !! Dating her was an........experience I'm sure a few guys felt that way about me too, but in my case it ain't a good thing for them !! (I believe this is thread hijack! LOL) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
"So... let's see if we can simply end on agreement as follows: Secure our borders? YES! Amnesty for illegal immigrants? NO! Deport 12 million folks who snuck in? NO! Compell them to learn English, pay their due fines and back taxes, and become productive American citizens? YES! Agree that people in general commit crimes. Generally poor folks and folks from broken homes commit more crimes than more well-off, well-reared folks. It has nothing to do with race. YES! Avoid hate and commentary that might easily be misinterpreted as hateful and/or bigotted? YES!" We agree. And it would be nice if it happens. If it happens quickley and honestly. But like my very first posting said. It will take over 20 years to work through the intruder applications. 12 million is alot of forms. Whats to stop the lawbreaker from simply ommiting all the $$$ they earned for all those years. It would take a detective weeks to work through one intruders application. They will not pay-back back taxes. Or any government benifit that they recieved under false information. Since we can't prove Joe is Joe. All he needs to do is come up with a new name thus he would not be linked to backtaxes of fees.} | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Skyguy |
Okay I also have changed my point of view on the immigration deal. We are going to need the extra people to fight off the Chinese...........  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Ryker77 |
BTW I have respect for immigrents. So I am far from a bigot. I fully understand there hard work and awesome work ethics. This generation of Americans need to look at them for an example. They worked as hard as our grandparents did. I respect that. And when I had my bike wreck -- the very first person to come to my aid. Was a hispanic that could hardly speak english. So please don't call me a bigot or racist. I just want to ensure that all Americans have the same lifestyle in the future that I have now. Not worse. BTW-- when those 12million can come out of the shadows. Every major employeer who followed the law before with be able to displace higher paid people since there will be 12 million people ready to move up to a better job. People like my 55 year old dad who is just a truck driver will be forced to compete with a huge increase in drivers. His pay and all other truck drivers pay will decrease. As will all other low skilled jobs. Then 12 MORE million illegals will need to fulfill the empty "jobs Americans" don't want. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Skyguy |
Ryker is right. Nothing good is going to come out of 12 million new barely skilled workers. Prices won't come down, wages will. It is weird how almost everyone I talk to about this is against amnesty (even conditional) yet it is going to pass. Oh wait I know why! Big business is looking forward to lower wages and higher profits. This is all a red herring to draw the American public away from other serious issues anyway. |
