| Author | Message | ||
     Ryker77 |
"Here's one for you... How did slavery affect middle class American income? We prospered under slavery. We can prosper under continued immigration too. " Lol.... Slavery was only by the wealthy. They are the only ones who benifited from it. Further more the middle class was not untill the 1920's.. Yes we can prosper under CONTROLLED immigration. | ||
| Raraf |
I think the US is still mad at how Mexico took care of the illegal immigrants in Alamo, Texas. This country grew by illegal immigrants stealing and killing to get the land we now have. I say open da gates and we all mix it up until we are all one gray color! | ||
| Cowboy |
It seems to me that most of us here is on the same page. We have one of a hell of a problem just cant come to an agrement on how to solve it. as I have said before. Please dont try to lay the blaim on any one admin. As I am much older than many of you I have watched this grow sence WW 2 now it has got out of hand. some one needs to put America 1st.and stop shooting for popular openion. I can a sure you that who ever gets this under control is a 1 term man. Just the way the world is. | ||
| Ryker77 |
Same old tired rationale used when the Irish flooded into NYC, or then the Italians did, or then the Peurto Ricans did... Always the same bullshit. Always someone who can find an academic to support their views. I see you've once again missed the facts. First and formost. There was no, none, zippo welfare system. It currently cost 5-7 BILLION dollars each year to support the illegals due to working for slave labor wages. In case you missed that. 5,000,000,000.00 Money that could have bought body armor for out military members. Money that could have been used to send AMERICANS to school. Yes I can show academics who support my thoughts. But instead I show real solid Numbers. Factual numbers. • Real wages in the US are falling at their fastest rate in 14 years. (Financial Times, May 10, 2005) • 14 million Americans are unable to find full-time jobs in the current economy. [Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS)] • The unemployment rate among the 12 million American adults who do not have a high school diploma is almost 9 percent. (BLS) Forty-six percent of Mexicans (approximately 46 million people) would immigrate to the United States and more than 20% of them would enter illegally if given the chance. Twenty-eight percent of U.S.-born Latinos say immigrants are a burden on the U.S. Five percent of foreign-born Latinos say immigrants are a burden on the U.S. You see American latinos even understand how a constant flow of cheap labor hurts them. Yet the forigners think its all good. Forty-three percent of Hispanics believe the U.S. government doesn't do enough to stop illegal migrants from entering the country. International Communications Research Poll, May, 2000  | ||
| Ryker77 |
1776-1819 6,500/yr. Average New Nation Tradition: The new nation was trying to populate Eastern frontiers. 1820-1879 160,000/yr. Average Continental Expansion Tradition: Immigration was used to encourage settlement of all frontiers from the Atlantic to the Pacific; driving Indians into reservations, virtually eliminating the buffalo/grasslands ecology of the Prairies and all but small tracts of Wilderness. 1880-1924 580,000/yr. Average Great Wave/Robber Baron Tradition: The Robber Barons of the Guilded Age of rapid industrial expansion imported massive amounts of foreign labor instead of employing America’s freed slaves (keeping most on Southern plantations). With a plentiful supply of immigrant workers, the Robber Barons were able to avoid many productivity investments and gains, depressing the rise of wages of most Americans while successfully busting unions. They used their political clout to block repeated attempts in Congress to lower immigration back toward previous Traditional levels. 1925-1965 180,000/yr. Average Rise of Middle Class Tradition: Reacting to excesses of the Great Wave, Congress limited numbers to the previous Tradition. The resulting tight-labor market allowed most Americans to move into the Middle Class for the first time and made possible the Civil Rights Movement. 1965- 1989 500,000/yr. Average Post-1965 Chain Migration Tradition: Accidentally started by a 1965 Act intended primarily to make it easier for Asians to compete for immigration slots. President Kennedy proposed it, promising no new wave of immigrants, saying there were no new frontiers to populate or massive factories needing unskilled labor. But opening family-chain migration into all the world, without hard numerical caps, flooded the country with numbers nearly as high as the Great Wave. 1990-2005 1,000,000/yr. Average New Robber Baron Tradition: Industries became addicted to cheap foreign labor, and a growing class of affluent Americans depended on a foreign servant class. Together, they kept immigration at double Great Wave levels of a century earlier, even as many Americans’ occupations collapsed declined below Middle Class standards. | ||
| Bomber |
Ryker -- most are not disareeing with ya -- any proposal as to how to improve the situation? check check make that any workable proposal as to how to improve the situation? | ||
| Midknyte |
Slaves did not have access to, for instance, schools. Their [were not allowed to be a] drain as it were, on schools, roads, hopsitals, etc. They were also not paid [and sending their wages back "home"] - money made by their existence went into our economy... Not to say that it was right. Just that the comparison is NOT linear I move that we don't carry this discussion further. It'll be a charged issue of it's own... | ||
| Blake |
What is the total population of Mexico, just over 100 Million? Current estimate is that we get about a 500K illegal immigrants making their way into the country every year. Sorry, I'm all for securing the border, but I don't buy the gloom and doom scare-mongering one bit. Like I said, it is EXACTLY the same cry heard over and over again throughout history whenever any significant immigration flux of working class poor flooded into the country. Secure the border. Establish a viable migrant worker program. ID cards. No middle class before 1920's? That would mean no teachers, no tradesmen, no merchants, no entrepreneurs, no skilled labor, no writers, no resauranteurs, no farmers, no craftsmen, no lawyers, no engineers, no fishermen, no ranchers... America from day one has been the land of opportunity. The industrial revolution fueled that even more, but there was certainly what could be called a middle class throughout our history. | ||
| Slaughter |
Interesting. One of my cousins in Wisconsin runs a 700 head dairy farm. For $10 an hour he gets a "Latino" - of (fill in the blank) heritage who shows up every day, regardless. For $15 per hour, he can't get reliable help from the local labor pool. Rarely will they have a guy work two weeks straight without missing a day or two and then starts missing Mondays... and then just doesn't show up. Sure, this is farm labor but until I talked with him at our last family reunion, I didn't know they were paying that kind of coin and that for $15/hr, they could not get usable local help but for $10/hr, they got help they could count on. Whatchya gonna do? | ||
| Buellfart |
I`m a union carpenter near San Francisco ca. and my union has been totally infiltrated by illegals in the past five years-Union is just trying to survive,but that`s no excuse.Now Contractors have to hire bilingual formen if they have over a given number of employees--Carpenters used to be middle class in this area,now we have to buy houses 80 miles away and commute--don`t nobody tell me tell me they`re not taking jobs from the middle class-THAT IS UTTER BULLSHIT-PERIOD.Wages have suffered since this trend was begun and we no longer receive wage adjustments in line with inflation--all the "extra" money goes for health care--to deliver all the babies they`re producing--let `em in, if you must but at least limit their insane reproductive capabiltiy to some degree,I don`t know how,the Pope says "be fruitfull and multiply" but that sumbitch isn`t up to his armpits in Mexicans.Sorry but this situation is getting out of hand-FAST! | ||
| Skyguy |
15 per hour is poverty level wages. I can barely live on that especially here in SoCal. I could never raise a family on it. Now due to the flood of illegal wage earners I can not even get that doing construction work anywhere near my community. To many "latinos" working for 10 per hour. Many people in my community have remarked on falling wages............. So illegal immigration has hurt me and I know it. | ||
| Sgthigg |
Were "supposed" to be at a "war on terrorism" I can talk...Maybe One day over a couple cold ones. I will tell you about my 2003 year starting in March..Actually January. If were at "war on terrorism" we cant grant a blanket amnesty to these illegals...We dont know who they truly are...That would be flat out a slap in the face to all citizens who have fought this "unknown enemy" or support the troops who have died and who do fight them. It defeats the whole purpose of this "war". Mexico keeps south americans from coming across theyre borders pretty damn good... Just as a guatamalen, or chilean person, I know I have worked with lots of them....oh yah doing one of those kinds of jobs "no american wants to do.. The excuse.."its ok they do jobs americans wont do"... NAME ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hell I saw a lady theother day picking up trash on base...oh yah she was white too...This excuse doesnt fly. I aint buying any of this crap from bush or from these bleeding hearts...Rep or Dems. It makes me really question hearing these politicians even contemplating this if we are truly commited to something over in Iraq or Afghanastan that has a purpose. They need to get deported and come here through the proper channels like the LAW says. So we know who they are. | ||
| Blake |
I like cake. | ||
| Cowboy |
I say our welfare program is one way to stop this insane migration . Stop those welfare checks To those worthless B------s on the conner and those jobs will get done by americans, there want be any thing for the illegals to do. We are our owne worest enemy.Remember water will seek its own level we will stop it now or it will finally stop it self and more people will be hurt. | ||
| Sgthigg |
"Mexico border tightness: 1. Who says their southern border is tight? 2. Who says they want or need to tighten their northern border? I'll say no more." Thank you You dont have too.. 1.Millions of illegals will tell you the southern border is hard to cross...Mexico doesnt need any more poor people without homes and jobs coming up into it trying to get to america. 2. Who says they want to....Exactly they dont thats the problem..lol A whole hell of alot more LEGAL taxpaying citizens are voicing theyre opinion on securing the norther mexico border. More than the illegals+theyre maybe legal relatives here. | ||
| Ryker77 |
"any proposal as to how to improve the situation? " 1First and foremost secure the border. Solid. 2Next stop giving govenment aid to illegals. This would force employeers to pay more. Why? Because right now the total household income INCLUDES govenmnet freebee's plus the little wages they earn. 3 ENFORCE LAWS. If you have a false ID - give them a felony. It would happen to me if I broke that law. Get caught drving without insurance, false ID, and not an American. Take there damn car. And I am not talking about give them a fair trial, free lawyer, and years in jail. I am talking about a 1 way bus ticket. Stop all immigration untill a system is established to check for proper health, background, speak english, and have some type of education. All of that needs to be done BEFORE they come in. Plus only allow a SMALL % increase. Thats what the govenment needs to do. We as a people need to educate and improve alot of things. We need to stop using so much credit cards. We need to put our 15 year kids to work (part time) teach them real life value's. I think most people over the age of 30 and our succesfull worked a part time job when 15/16 and learned valuable life lessons. Play x-box doesn't teach them about life. | ||
| Ryker77 |
"No middle class before 1920's? That would mean no teachers, no tradesmen, no merchants, no entrepreneurs, no skilled labor, no writers, no resauranteurs, no farmers, no craftsmen, no lawyers, no engineers, no fishermen, no ranchers... America from day one has been the land of opportunity. The industrial revolution fueled that even more, but there was certainly what could be called a middle class throughout our history." That debate could take many turns and directions. Life was much more simple prior to the 1920's or even 1900's. Nearly every country person was an all in one worker, farmhand, fisher, hunter, craftsman, lumberjack, mechanic. Now days the lawyer making 100 per hour has to pay a car dealership 80/hr to fix his car or 50/hr to the home builder. | ||
| Pcmodeler |
Slaughter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting. One of my cousins in Wisconsin runs a 700 head dairy farm. For $10 an hour he gets a "Latino" - of (fill in the blank) heritage who shows up every day, regardless. For $15 per hour, he can't get reliable help from the local labor pool. Rarely will they have a guy work two weeks straight without missing a day or two and then starts missing Mondays... and then just doesn't show up. Sure, this is farm labor but until I talked with him at our last family reunion, I didn't know they were paying that kind of coin and that for $15/hr, they could not get usable local help but for $10/hr, they got help they could count on. Whatchya gonna do? So, if he's so much happier with the migrant workers performance, why doesn't he pay him $15 bucks just like he would the American worker??? .....and there in lies part of the problem..... | ||
| Bomber |
Ryker -- thanks - a rational plan that doesn't include Rmabo-esque postering at the border -- I agree with your plans -- sadly enough, they reflect laws presnetly on the books, but not funded sufficiently both those who are busily writing NEW laws to address any issues PC Modeler -- that farmer isn't paying the $10 an hour worker $15 an hour for the same reason you don't leave a 50% tip at the gas station, auto repair shop, or nay where else you spend your dough looked at another way, if I need some labor (carpenter, for instance), and I can get the same level of work, a reliable crew, and a project that ends on schedule by paying $X, or by paying $X+, why would I pay $X+? as for working people not being able to live in the areas in which they work, this has been going on for far longer than there has been an illegal immigrant issue -- I ain't buying that at all It's stempting to blame all our employment and wage ills on immegrants -- like most simple answers, it is also incorrect (or, at best, partially correct) | ||
| Blake |
Approaching it from a hard nosed business/accounting angle... If in a comprehensive cost/benefit analysis enforcement costs significantly more than the status quo (benefits paid to illegals), then one cannot make a business case for enforcement. Of course the security issue is another matter entirely. I don't like excessive greed. Some desire to get ahead, I call it "ambition" is healthy. But to harbor deep resentment and animosity towards others who merely desire to improve their lives is unfortunate. The poem on the Statue of Liberty is profound and I believe represents a creed that we should absolutely uphold. Just find a way to make it legal and to get the folks to speak English! I like the Senate's plan. It is rational and compassionate while also demanding accountability; it seems realistic. It is not realistic to close our border or to deport millions of immigrants. Mexican food (fajitas especially) is one of my most favorites.  (Message edited by Blake on April 07, 2006) | ||
| Skyguy |
I say send them all home, wait twelve months then allow legal immigration with preference paid to those that were here the longest. This would give the U.S. time to truly evaluate to cost/benefit of having them here. I am a little hard nosed on this one because most of the current statistics are manipulated in the first place. One of my best friends spent thousands of dollars getting his wife into the U.S. This amnesty crap is not fair to him or anyone else that did it properly. Here is another example of what sleeze ball employers and illegal immigration did to me personally. I live in the mountains above Los Angeles. We have a major bark beetle problem here. When the problem first went ballistic some friends and I started a small logging company. Mostly removing trees from private property. We got timber operator licenses and insurance and were starting to make some decent money. Then it happened, our forest was declared a disaster area. All of a sudden there were a dozen very large timber operations showing up from out of State. They set up camps with dozens of immigrant (now discovering illegal immigrant) workers. We could no longer compete with these companies in any way shape or form. Nor could any of the other local or in State companies. Not only did they have out of State workmans comp (much cheaper) but they had a live in labor pool and paid them diddle. A couple of these companies are now in deep shiot due to being busted for not paying employees workmans comp and a variety of other problems including uninsured fatalities. One companies (Mowbray) owners are facing 70 years in prison right now. Another couple are on the run. Several are hiding behind layers of employees that they "fired". These companies had large State and Federal contracts and it took two years of local companies efforts to get them shut down. To late the damage was done. Most of the trees are gone. Several locals went out of business or bankrupt becasue of equipment loans and the inability to compete. The goverment is not distributing the monies paid in fines to those that were trying to do it right, they are keeping the cash. Tell me again how illegal immigration is good for the economy? Tell me again how it does not hurt the middle class?. I hate to say it but this wonderful country is going to hell. I have seen this coming for years. I decided to run under the net after getting screwed over by the justice system and a couple of employers. If I could afford to leave the U.S. and do my balloon thing is Costa Rica I would be gone. I have had enough. Now I am going to go ride my motorcycle and break the damm speed laws cause I just don't care to follow the rule of law any more. Oh, and it's fun. | ||
| Ryker77 |
"15 per hour is poverty level wages. I can barely live on that especially here in SoCal. I could never raise a family on it. Now due to the flood of illegal wage earners I can not even get that doing construction work anywhere near my community. To many "latinos" working for 10 per hour. Many people in my community have remarked on falling wages............." Sorry to tell you but in my area 15.00/hr is pretty good. Cops make about 12-15/hr and so do EMT, teachers. Mill workers get 8-15/hr. I am applying for a manager position-- 13.50/hr. I know lots of medical people with college training that gets 8-15 per hour. But then again my house cost me about a 1/4 of what it would cost in cali. You don't have to live in those area's. | ||
| Cowboy |
What is entry level pay for US army????? | ||
| Ryker77 |
e1 less than 6 months is around 1,000 free housing, food, medical, gym, discount theater and exchange. If your married you get housing (tax free) and food money. All tax free. It's actually not bad pay-- IF you ONLY work 40hr weeks and are not in the sandbox. As an e-5 I my net income was 36k a year. I am in school now and will be lucky to make that much again after school. Good thing I married smartly.  | ||
| Anonymous |
I want to add my two cents, as a cop i have come across illegals from all over, India, Pakistan, costa rica, honduras, mexico, haiti, nigeria. etc.... and you know what happens when they commit a crime? they get locked up, immigration gets a phone call and then they tell us "we dont want him/her" What is local law enforcement supposed to do when INS doesnt want the illegals? we cant keep them locked up . Its frustrating to be out there doing your job day in and day out and then get an arrest only to be told that they will not come and take the illegals away. So now i just take their fake ssn's and green cards and throw them away. And im a Hispanic Cop so I get to here the BS from all of you and all of them... | ||
| Mfell2112 |
Hey Anon, I can imagine these same illegals do not have auto insurance? No drivers license? How can you arrest an American citizen for not having these things and not enforce the same laws on illegals? If I ever get busted for speeding I will just pretend i am an illegal alien. No fines and no punishment. Thats a great deal. Only in America. Mike | ||
| Ryker77 |
Hey Anon you have my respect. Mfell. It COST $$$ to hold them in county jail. Money that comes from county property taxes.. ie the American People. Sure they can go to jail and get punished. 6 months in jail. that 30 days x $45 x 6 months. And by the way thats after you give them a fair trial, and a translator. My question is if there illegal--- why not impound there car? My gym buddy is a cop. He told me he stopped a smuggler on the freeway. Had about 6 illegals for transport. Each one had 10k cash on them. INS was called and told they would not pick them up. Since the driver didn't have the payment on him it was not illegal for him to drive around with the illegals. Had the driver had that much cash he would have been cuffed. Since the driver was an American. | ||
| Oldog |
Annony: Sorry to hear this, remember its about Illegal non residents NOT latinos, I may self am quite torn over the issue, I have a number of Cuban friends and acquaintences some of whom fled cuba seeking amnesty, to see how far some have come in their lives is encouraging, I dont have answers other than hold the INS leaders responcible for the operation of the department, and I would like to know why illegals cant be deported? perhaps an accounting from the INS is in order. | ||
| Ryker77 |
I think you have to give the illegals a right to a fair trial. It should be as simple as a one way bus trip. We can not save the world by importing the problems. | ||
| Ryker77 |
The mycobacterium tuberculosis is resistant to at least two major TB drugs. Ordinary TB usually is cured in six months with four drugs (that cost about $2000). MDR-TB takes 24 months with many expensive drugs with toxic side effects (that cost around $250,000).[14] ,[15] Each Illegal Alien with MDR-TB coughs and infects numerous people who will not show symptoms immediately. Latent disease explodes later, like a time bomb. TB was virtually absent in Virginia until in 2002 it spiked a 17% increase, but Prince William County, not far from Washington, D.C., had a meteoric rise of 188%. Public health officials blamed immigrants. Indiana School of Medicine in 2001 studied an outbreak of MDR-TB traced to illegal aliens from Mexico. The Queens, New York, health department attributed 81% of new TB cases in 2001 to immigrants. The Centers for Disease Control ascribed 42% of all new TB cases to "foreign born" people who have up to eight times higher incidence.[16] ,[17] ,[18] ,[19] ,[20] ,[21] Apparently 66% of all TB cases coming to America originate in Mexico, the Philippines, and Viet Nam. Virulent TB outbreaks afflicted schoolteachers and children in Michigan,[22] ,[23] and adults and kids in Texas.[24] The teachers and kids caught it at school from coughing children of Illegal Aliens. In Minnesota, policemen suddenly came down with MDR-TB. The cops caught it in their patrol cars when they arrested Illegal Aliens who coughed in their faces. Recently TB erupted in Portland, Maine, and Del Ray Beach, Florida. 14. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, www.NIAID.nih.gov 15. New York Online Access to Health, www.NOAH-health.org 16. McCray E, Weinbaum CM, Brader CR, et al. The epidemiology of tuberculosis in the United States. Clin Chest Med 1997;18:99-113. 17. Division of Tuberculosis Elimination, CDC. Tuberculosis morbidity among U.S.-born and foreign-born populations-United States, 2000. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2002;51:101-104. 18. Recommendations for the prevention and control of tuberculosis among foreign born persons. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 1998;47:1-29. 19. Talbot EA, Moore M, McCray E, et al. Tuberculosis among foreign-born persons in the United States, 1993-1998. JAMA 2000;284:2894-2900. 20. GT Strickland's Hunter's Tropical Medicine. Philadelphia, PA: W.B. Saunders Company, 2000. 21. Chin DP, DeRiemer K, Small PM, et al. Differences in contributing factors to tuberculosis incidence in US-born and foreign-born persons. Am J Respir Crit Care Med 1998;158:1797-1803. 22. Frosty Wooldridge's Immigration's Unarmed Invasion, Deadly Consequences Bloomington, Indiana: Author House, 2004. 23. Immigrants' Health Care Coverage and Access Fact Sheet. Washington, DC. Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured; March 2001. |
