| Author | Message | ||
     S320002 |
Blake, Do we all have to go through this again? Gyroscopic procession does affect motorcycle steering and no amount of denial will change that. Sport Rider magazine is doing a four part series on Counter steering vs. Body Steering. The first part was in the October issue, part two is in the February issue. Personally I think it should be called Counter Steering vs. Leaning into the Turn since all steering is Body Steering in one form or another. Greg | ||
| Kerryx1 |
The best tight turn method is used in the older Buell commercial. Lotta fun but removes the crown on a new tire. I only get about three 360 degree turns to a tire. High speed turning on the other hand gets me 6-7000 miles per tire. 'Ole Baldie  | ||
| Rick_A |
I don't really like leaning far off the opposite edge on super slow tight to the steering lock turns. It's tricky as hell to keep a heavy bike balanced that way...for me, anyway. I speed up to lean farther I don't see there being any "bull" about it, though. | ||
| Jima4media |
Another way to demonstrate countersteering is to tie pieces of string on to each of your hand grips. Get going in a straight line at 25 mph or so, in a big parking lot, with no other vehicles around. Pull on one string or the other. What happens? Remember you can't push a string to turn. Jim | ||
| Blake |
Greg, Gyroscopic precession does significantly "affect" the steering of a motorcycle. What I said is that it does not "facilitate" the steering of a motorcycle. The effects of gyroscopic precession make turning a motorcycle at high speeds a very difficult ordeal. Anyone who believes otherwise is severely mistaken. Bill, We agree. Except for your example. Depending on particular motorcycle and its geometry one may or may not need to press on the left or right grip to maintain a right turn. One only needs to press on the right grip to initiate the lean required to make a right turn or to tighten up the track through a right turn. The same physics govern low and high speed turns. There is no difference between the basic steering methods for low and high speed turning, only differences in the magnitudes of steering and lean required. If you want a bike to turn right you must first get its CG to the right of its wheel track. Either you or the bike or both must lean right. If you lean left, the bike must lean farther right. It's that simple. JQ, Riding dirt track style on a Buell without sliding the rear end is not going to provide any advantage, even in battletrax; it will only get you dragging hard parts sooner and make transitioning to the next turn that much more difficult. Now, if you are brave enough to get the rear tire spinning then it becomes a whole new scenario. That is how the supermotard guys like to ride. That method does help get the bike turned more quickly. | ||
| M2me |
Blake, It looks like we might have to agree to disagree on this issue. I am not sure if any book quotes, or Web site references or personal experiences are going to change your mind. Hanging off, leaning out, not leaning with the motorcycle, shifting weight to the outside or whatever you want to call it, does help facilitate slow speed turns. It's no bull. The more I have thought about it, I have realized that I do shift weight to the outside in slow speed turns but, like other people, just wasn't aware that I was doing it. In order to get a motorcycle endorsement in Minnesota you must pass a riding test. This test is laid out with cones in a small parking lot like area. You must do some very slow speed, 90 degree turns. You get penalized for putting a foot down or by hitting cones. I failed it the first time (this was over ten years ago) but passed my second time after practising slow speed manuevers in a parking lot. I took the test on an 883 Sportster, a 400+ lb bike. The bottom line is, if you do not shift weight to the outside in slow speed turns you would not be able to pass the test. That's a fact and no bull. | ||
| Jima4media |
The differences between high and low speed turns are two: Centripetal force and gyroscopic force. There isn't much of either in a low speed turn. So you turn right and go right. You don't have to overcome centripetal force in a slow speed turn either, but you do have to overcome gravity, which you do by leaning to the outside of the bike, or staying upright while the bike is leaned over. You are correct John. Jim | ||
| X1glider |
Blake, you are outnumbered on this one. I'm surprised at you for not understanding this topic. I hang a cheek on the opposite of the turn at least once a day. The next time you can, turn the bars on your M2 to full lock, then walk it in a circle. Now think about how you can tighten up that circle in spite of the steering lock. You lean. Ok, now imagine how to ride in a tighter circle at slow speed, like doing a u-turn on a single car driveway. Are you going to lean with the bike thru the turn? If you do, you and the bike will fall over on your side. Pretty embarrassing. The only way to do this is to lean the bike over like you normally would, but you have to counterbalance the weight of the bike to keep it from falling over. This means leaning on the high side of the bike so that your weight is over the tires. This allows you to lean the bike an extraordinary amount at a very slow speed. Many of us do it all the time. I first discovered this trick when I was 5 or 6 with a 16" bicycle. | ||
| Blake |
I understand the topic all too well, and educating a gaggle of the ignorant has never deterred me. I have never seen anyone "hang off" the opposite side of their street bike to facilitate a slow speed turn. Like I already said, the physics may be valid, the practice of "hanging off" opposite is something else. I also consider "hanging off" something totally different than "not leaning". Jim, Sorry, you are mistaken. Even at low speeds, with no initial leaning of the rider relative to bike, one must countersteer to get the bike leaned over, just like at high speeds; the effort and duration is just less noticeable. The effort and duration at low speeds is less noticeable since you are not fighting significant gyroscopic effects and you are usually not leaning as far over. The centrifugal/centripetal force will always be present. It is simply proportional to speed and turning radius. Yes gyroscopic effects are negligible at low speeds, which is why getting a bike to turn at lower speeds is so much easier compared to getting a bike to turn at high speeds. M2me, I wouldn't have adamantly called BS if you had used the phrase "not leaning with the motorcycle". You originally said something quite different... "You can also hang off on the opposite side (the high side) if you want to turn really slow, like in a parking lot." That is simply very bad advice. | ||
| Blake |
Really? Care to wager on that? That's a very bold statement. Sounds like total bull to me. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake,
Are you just ashamed to admit that you paddlewalk your bike around tight turns in a parking lot and do three point turns like a Geezer on a Electra Glide? Do all your friends do that? Is that why you have never seen it done? Please shut the F up and do not continue to make an ASS out of yourself until you go out, get on your bike and try to make slow u-turns and "discover" that the way to make the tightest turns is when you sit on the high side, load the outside footpeg and lean the bike while looking and powering through the turn. Let's see, Tony Foale, David Hough, MSF, personal experience, everybody else here, or Blake? I think the answer is obvious. Go out and ride your bike, let us know what you find out. If you find out we're all wrong, send it to Roadracing World, who knows you might get published.... | ||
| Hans |
Yeah, When I just had acquired my M2 it came up to me to test the smallest turn radius. I was warned once to stay clear from the end stut but what the heck: I wanted to give it a try and I turned in with the steering bar till the stut, controlling the bike with the throttle. I had done better to minimize the cable play first, because I was pushing that bar against the strut while nothing happened when I opened the throttle. I was busy falling down and could do nothing. On the last moment the engine fired and one mighty blow throw me upright and in balance again. Phew. I had been sitting flat in the saddle, leaning just as far as the bike. The turn radius was pretty wide. Then I remembered the demonstration during the MSF class where a light bike was turned around, by hand, in leaning position and upright, and the big grin I got when I ordered the cones wider from each other to make the snake line possible for my, then cruiserlike type, bike. Leaning off, or more precise: Staying vertical to the ground and let the bike do the leaning, gives a CONSIDERABLE smaller radius of turn. If accustomed, it becomes part of everyday practise. Merry Christmas to all. Hans | ||
| Featheredfiend |
When walking forward into a great wind, I always lean forward. Merry Christmas, everyone. Feathered | ||
| Blake |
JQ, God bless and merry Christmas. Again, for me there is a HUGE difference between "hanging off the opposite side" of a motorcycle versus "leaning the motorcycle only and keeping your body straight." And like I already said, I fully agree that the former is an acceptable and effective method of helping to maintain balance and facilitate tight slow speed turns. When it comes to low speed turns, and this is in the exact words of one of your own referenced authors, Ken Archibald, A.G.W.A. National Safety Director... "Body movements, if any, should be moderate and controlled, not extreme and erratic. That is exactly part of my point. "Hanging off" by definition is an extreme movement. I don't see anywhere in any of your beloved links/references where anyone is advocating "hanging off" opposite to facilitate low speed turning. And in two cases your references are simply wrong. I already pointed out the problem with one of the figures that you posted. Another of your other references, some self proclaimed expert calling himself "Goose" apparently believes that in a high speed turn the front wheel actually remains turned opposite in direction to the turn. In talking about making a low speed turn he says... "You will be turning the bars in the direction you want to go rather than countersteering it as you would at speed." Sorry, that is completely wrong. No matter the speed, to initiate any turn, a bike's CG must be moved into the direction of the turn, either by counter steering or by body movement (leaning). If you are riding straight, no matter the speed, in order to initiate a turn, the bike and/or rider must be leaned into the turn to counteract centrifugal force. Once lean is initiated the front wheel must then, no matter the speed, be turned into the turn. Failure to do so will result in an immediate tip over and impact of bike and rider with the pavement. Still think Goose is an iron clad reference and a credible expert on motorcycle handling and the physics of turning a bike? He is not. You sure seem to put a lot of stock into the blatherings of others when they support your opinion. In your mind, their credibility and expertise is superior for some reason. Countersteering works at ALL speeds, it is just far more noticeable at high speeds due to the effort required to overcome gyroscopic forces in getting the bike to lean. Please realize that if the front wheel is an effective gyro in helping to get a bike leaned over, then the rear wheel/tire assembly, through its greater mass/inertia is DOUBLY effective in RESISTING any such lean. That is exactly why it gets harder and harder and harder to turn a bike at increasing speeds. Gyroscopic forces and gyroscopic precession are a great hindrance to high speed motorcycle maneuverability and are of little benefit other than to help stabilize a bike at high speed. So anyway, your reference, old "Goose" doesn't know what he is talking about. Back to the main point of discussion. As far as paddle walking my bike around a tight turn... I have yet to encounter any turn or parking lot route so tight as to require paddle walking. I regularly practice slow speed tight turning by running continuous figure eights within the confines of opposing pairs of parking spots. And yes, I do shift my weight (lean) to maintain balance. I do not "hang off" the opposite side of the bike. That is simply stupid. Here follows the simple logic proving so... To hang off the opposite side of a bike a rider has by definition placed his weight at an extreme outboard position with little to no room for further outward weight shift. Now, if in the midst of a low speed turn, should the rider encounter a need to slow or stop (as often happens in a parking lot) and should the bike start to fall inboard (into the turn) the rider then has absolutely NO means to catch the bike - the front wheel is already turned hard into the turn - the bike needs to be stopped so cannot accelerate, and the rider is already hanging off opposite the direction of tipping, so cannot even put a foot down to help catch the bike. The rider and his/her bike are therefore in significant peril of tipping over and will most likely hit the pavement. Hanging off opposite in a low speed, parking lot maneuver scenario is blatantly foolish. You may perceive putting a foot down as shameful; I find it highly advisable in lieu of risking dropping my bike. I don't think you will find anyone reputable or expert on the subject recommending "hanging off" the opposite side of a street bike to facilitate low speed tight maneuvers. None of your links or references do. One more note... some here have claimed that the hanging off opposite technique for controlled slow maneuvering works well on a bicycle. Why the heck would that EVER be necessary?! I've not ever seen a bicycle whose front wheel wouldn't turn near 90 degrees in either direction. But some here imply that in order to improve a bicycle's turning radius, hanging off opposite is advisable.  Maybe my definition of "hanging off" is different than others. I define "haning off" as the rider literally hanging off of the bike. As to what my friends do with respect to handling a motorcycle... I don't have any friends. Mostly on account of I'm such a big asshole.  Merry Christmas José. Blake (temporarily revoking JQ's honorary "Buellstradamus" title and replacing it with "linkmaster" ) | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Hmmm, JQ and Blake, didja both get coal in your socks this morning? | ||
| Kerryx1 |
On my rigid with a 22" over springer, I flatfoot with both feet to make "K" turns on a four lane highway. My bicycle, on the other hand, still has the training wheels so I don't get a "rasberry"! On the Buell, well go forward young man! Haul ass and never think of turning back! Blake--No friends? hah hah hah hah hah, (tears) heh heh heh! You both tightened up my "pucker" strings so tight I'm pissin myself laughing! MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!! 'Ole Baldie | ||
| S320002 |
Blake, You should probably go to this site before anyone else says you don't know Jack. http://home.pacbell.net/diana_do/knowjack.htm Greg | ||
| Rick_A |
I think it's the mental perception that is throwing people off. IMO Blake and JQ agree but don't know it. If a bike is leaned far over with the rider upright in a low speed tight turn it would also appear as though the rider is leaning far off the bike, wouldn't it??? | ||
| Andrewb |
I am visualizing dirt bike riders with their bikes thrown all the way down into a turn, and their body being upright or slightly positioned to the outside of the turn.... Andrew | ||
| M2me |
You can see from the picture that JQ posted that he is sitting on the outside of the seat. If the picture had been taken from directly behind, you could even say that the right side of his butt and right hip are "hanging off" the bike. Where else could it be if he is sitting on left edge of the seat? Or, if the bike is leaned over and the rider is upright then the rider's weight is to the outside of the turn. Not in the center or on the inside. It's the same thing, just a different way of saying it. | ||
| Blake |
Firstly, José is not performing a low speed parking lot maneuver; he is attacking a closed course in competition, a Battle Trax course where there are absolutely no concerns other than getting around the course as fast as he possibly can. Secondly, and like I alluded to before, José's technique might be advantageous, but only if he were sliding the rear wheel, which he very well may have been. Otherwise, hanging off the inside as per King Carl, Colin Edwards, Ben Bostrom, Troy Baylis et al is a FAR more efficient way to get a sport bike around a turn at speed, especially if upon exiting the turn you immediately need to setup for another turn in the opposite direction (usually the case in Battle Trax). If you want to turn sharper or faster, even in a first gear 15 mph Battle Trax turn, learn to lean her over more, get your knee puck dragging and turn. If you are not wearing knee pucks, you may do best to follow JQ's example. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake Merry Christmas to you too, I hope that Santa Claus gave you a copy of David Hough's Prolific Motorcycling, which, if you turned to page 54, would show you the following diagram:  You would also read, on page 53, the following:
In my picture, my butt was not off the seat, but I have done that, and it does help. Again, please go out, ride your bike, and "prove it to yourself" It really works.. Finally, for something slightly different but still related, why is Loris Capirossi sitting on the high side of the bike in this picture?  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
FYI, I was not sliding my rear tire in that picture. The one time I did slide the rear tire was when I locked up the rear brake and crashed going around that same cone later that day. | ||
| Rick_A |
My guess is he's about to straighten it up for the straight. | ||
| Rick_A |
Or setting up for the next turn? | ||
| Blake |
Mr. Hough's foolish advice is liable to get someone hurt or worse. Anyone who uses that riding technique is asking to drop his/her bike. What happens in the simple and highly likely case where a car pulls out and mister-standing-on-pegs-with-bike-tilted-hard-away-from-him has to stop quickly? Answer... he is going to dump his bike hard, and possibly end up going over the handle bars. You can show me all the published BS advice and diagrams you want. The fact that some self proclaimed expert bonehead put really bad advice in print doesn't do much to refute simple logic. That is simply a boneheaded way to maneuver a motorcycle in a public venue. As to why Loris Capirossi is shifted outboard, there are many possible reasons... 1. He momentarily shifted his weight outboard to prevent his bike/tires from running over the slippery painted line. 2. He is getting set up for an approaching left hand turn. 3. He screwed up and is avoiding upsetting the bike further. 4. He is tired/injured and is compensating. 5. He is trying to confuse Nicky Hayden. 6. He is trying to work out the remaining products of last night's lasagne before returning to the garage. Lot's of stuff works, that doesn't make it right, or safe. | ||
| Blake |
What would you do if you were in a car and had to make a tight U-Turn? Even my Buell with it's limited steering travel will make a 16' or so turning radius. How much do you really think that risky maneuver is going to gain you in turning radius? Answer... not enough to make much of a difference and certainly not enough to warrant the risk of dropping the bike. I'm 6'-3", 210 LB and by hanging off opposite I can't get my 450 LB motorcycle to lean that much more in a slow U-turn compared to if I simply sit upright with the bike leaned, certainly not while simultaneously and reliably maintaining precise control of clutch, brake, and throttle. No thanks, I'll stay seated. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake,
I would do a "cop" turn, back up with the steering at full lock left/right depending on which way I want to go, then go forward after I'm done turning. You turn tighter because the turing wheels are on the back of the vehicle instead of in the front. But you don't believe that either. Why change the subject to cars? Cars don't lean, bikes do, and that's the reason they can make much tighter turns than your 16 feet when you use your weight properly over the bike.
Talk about a worse case scenario! Probably same thing that would happen to anybody else, they would probably dump the bike, or if you knew what your were doing and have the space, you simply power out of the turn and get away from the car. In any other scenario, you will make a very tight u-turn and power away while your friends are paddling around.... But that's changing the subject, I'm sure whoever would be doing a turn like that anywhere would check around for oncoming pedestrians, vehicles, dogs, ect. You don't do that Blake? Again, ride the bike, "prove" your theory, write an article, get it peer reviewed, then get it published. I'm sure Mr. Hough would be happy to try to explain it to you, but he would give up after a while, because you obviously do not want to accept what is obvious and proven to work. Go find a friend, make some turns and take some measurements, let me know which way lets you make the tightest turn. Until you do that this debate is not worth pursuing. Good bye | ||
| Newfie_Buell |
Just a thought, Maybe Loris Capirossi's ass is itchy and he is trying to scratch it by sliding on the seat. Which one of you can pee the farthest??? I know I can almost do my whole name in the snow especially after the 3rd or 4th beer. Makes for some interesting reading though. | ||
| Hans |
Methinks that thou shall not exaggerate a difference to win a debate. I think that Blake did formulating it (after some course corrections) pretty well in his message of Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 11:43 am What a tall person can achieve, with his high center of gravity by simply bending his spine, has to be done by a person with a more centralized mass by shifting his pants over the saddle. The point is that a slow turn can be made considerable more tight by a far leaned bike, no matter how you have to achieve that great leaning angle. And to keep good control, apart from throttle response, keep clear from the end stut of the steering bar and from peg scraping of the bike. Fuzz about nothing.  Hans. |
