| Author | Message | ||
     Mikej |
Just playing around   | ||
| Joey |
Seems if he would sit straight on his bike instead of scooting off to the right (bottom picture), he wouldn't scrape his knee, don't you think? | ||
| M2me |
Joey, "Hanging off" is a cornering technique that is used for faster cornering. I read the theory behind it in MSF's Guide to Motorcycling Excellence. Great book. I think I'll dig my copy out for some winter time reading. | ||
| Mikej |
Hanging off the bike allows the bike to sit more upright gaining you ground clearances to hard parts. Soft parts flex and give like the knee pads, hard parts like the footpegs and such cause one to loose traction which is not good at those times when the hard parts are making sparks. You can play around with this on gentle corners on lightly traveled roadways. Go around a corner at a marginal speed, then mid-way through the corner safely play around with hanging off just a little bit while keeping the same line through the corner. You should notice the bike standing more upright as your body gets off to the side, simple balance stuff. Bikes have a maximum lean angle depending on the suspension as to how far over they can lean before scraping hard parts, or before running out of sidewall on the tires. Hanging off allows a good rider to capture more speed through a turn while maintaining fair clearances and while staying on the good parts of the tire. Hanging off allows squids to gain squid-points, but it looks goofy when they're all hung off in a corner and some dude sitting bolt upright/parallel with the bike is following at the same speed through the same corner while riding a 1984 Honda CM450E. Read Keith Code's books and watch his video tapes for a much clearer explaination, and then totally ignore everything I just typed in because while it's clear in my mind what I'm trying to say, it may not translate well to those who go faster or slower than I do. In other words, it works for me, YMMV.  | ||
| Timbo |
Those pictures are of Jeff Johnson, who races for Hoban Bros Racing. Jeff is an excellent, very experienced rider who has stood on the podium many times. Timbo | ||
| Mikej |
Yep, the pics are imagelinked to/from their pages. | ||
| M2me |
You can also hang off on the opposite side (the high side) if you want to turn really slow, like in a parking lot. This technique is also in the MSF Guide to Motorcycling Excellence book. I've never tried it on a motorcycle but I do remember using it while riding a bicycle and I've seen some dirt bike riders doing it. | ||
| Blake |
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| M2me |
Blake, Please elaborate on your bullshit alert. Don't tell me you're one of those guys who argues against countersteering or claim that pitchers can't really throw curveballs and think it's all just an optical illusion. | ||
| Blake |
Countersteering? Check! Curve ball? Check! Hanging off the opposite side of a motorcycle to facilitate a slow turn? Bullshit! Sorry. It seems my tact and what little patience I had got left behind in Denver.  | ||
| M2me |
Sorry, Blake I've got to disagree. Hanging off to tighten up a turn is real. I've done it thousands of times on a bicycle. I don't do it on a motorcycle because in really slow speed parking lot manuevers I usually just put a foot down. Here is a quote from MSF's Motorcycling Excellence book: "Once you are at the maximum steering angle and your speed is near the limits of traction, it would seem that you couldn't tighten up a turn any farther. ...unless there was some way to lean the motorcycle farther without adding any more weight." How can you lean the motorcycle farther without adding more weight? By hanging off the opposite side of the turn! | ||
| Nevco1 |
I smell a Math formula brewing in Texas!!! | ||
| Xb9er |
I wouldn't call it hanging off the opposite side of the bike. What is really happening is you stand on the footpegs to remove your body weight from the center of gravity "equation" and you control the bike by pushing on the pegs. And it's actually not "slow turning" but quick and very tight radius turning (at low speed). Try riding your bike in a straight line and get on the pegs and push slightly on one peg then the other. You will see how it only takes a very light touch to lean the bike. You will be surprised how far the bike will lean over. If you watch BMX trick riders, they make use of this quite a bit and they spend lots of time on one side of the bike with it leaned over and turning in tight circles (they do spend a lot of time doing this on one wheel, but it's the same principle). "Counter steering = no B.S.*" *Body Steering | ||
| M2me |
Here's a question for you (this question is also from the MSF Motorcycling Excellence book): How can you make tight turns easier and more controllable? A. Slip the clutch B. Tap the brakes C. Lean out or counterbalance D. Put your foot down and use it as a pivot point As you can see from my previous post I would have answered "D". My answer is WRONG! I put a foot down because I'm a scaredy cat. It's a bad habit and it's wrong. The correct answer is "C". XB9er brings up a good point though. "Hanging off" is not really accurate. You are shifting weight to the outside of the turn. You don't need to hang off the bike to do this. But the idea is the same. | ||
| M2me |
Just one more thing. This whole discussion is about cornering situations exactly opposite of the picture that Joey originally commented on. It's about slow speed turns. Right? Or am I confused?  | ||
| S320002 |
Blake, From the title of this thread I never would have guessed the subject. Its no bull. If you are trying to turn your bike around in the garage and you have the bars to the lock what do you do? Lean it over farther of course. At very low speeds the balance between centrifugal force and traction is not an issue so it works. However the balance between centripetal force and lean angle is very important. Greg | ||
| Hans |
Tight turns: The steering geometry is changed as the bike is leaning in an angle and the front tire is touching the ground at a point more to the sidewalls. The radius of turn is with an high leaning angle much smaller. Have seen it demonstrated. Countersteering: That is the quick and deliberate steering mouvement to the outside of a turn that lets the bike ride rapidly away from under the centre point of gravity and it is the fastest way to let you "fall" in the leaning position for the wished turn to the other side. This concept has nothing to do with the steering mouvement in the same direction when you take a turn with a drifting rearwheel as seen on ice riding or dirt track. Took me years to find that out.  Hans | ||
| Newfie_Buell |
I think you are referring to VERY SLOW TURNS (Below 20kph and when you actually have to turn the steering head) that works but when counter steering comes into play I don't think that would work. | ||
| Nevco1 |
I agree with Hans as the only time I have ever consciously felt the necessity to shift upper body weight in the opposite direction of the turn was when riding technical offroad sections at a snails pace in a near vertical position. Things just seem to get different when both wheels are sliding and/or slow speed balance is involved, eh? | ||
| Mikej |
I sometimes do a little makeshift reverse seat shift when hitting railroad tracks and improperly rutted or grooved roadways under construction, but that's more to keep going straight than down instead of around, learned as above from pedalbikes, probably not necessary but it makes me feel better, and confuses people following me as they think I just had some gas and then give me a little more following room. In any case the guy in the pics is not riding slow, slow maneuvers are better learned on a Trials bike, power or pedal. | ||
| Csg_Inc |
Ok....You got me. If you want to see some of the best slow speed, super balance guys? Go watch the Trials folks. Now that is a real education. Man those guys make it look soooo easy. Have not been on a trials bike in 15 years but I bet the new ones are way cool. I tried to play follow the leader with a few of the best. They will flat out trash a newbie and never even break a sweat. I never got very good at it but it was a blast from the past. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Trials riding...Now that is a whole different discipline. Would love to try one for a weekend to see if I could get hooked. However, having watched a trials event, I know I could never be a competitor unless they had a "Blooper Class." | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Blake It's no bull, I do it at Battletrax all the time.  I'm trying to get around this cone as tight as I can, so I'm sitting on the right (outside edge) side of the seat as I turn to the left. I'm also trying to look as far through the turn as I can, slipping the clutch and hitting the rear brake lightly only when absolutely necessary.  In normal turns, the rider and motorcycle should lean together. In slow tight turns, lean the motorcycle only and keep your body straight. Blake, if you still don't believe it just because I said so, read this, or this, or this, or this. | ||
| M2me |
Wow, maybe I'm not crazy for believing what I read in books. Seems a lot of other people believe that shifting your weight to the outside can help in a slow turn. Thanks, JQ for posting that picture of yourself actually doing it. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Oops...Guilty...I do that too. I just didn't associate keeping upper body vertical with hanging off the opposite side. | ||
| Bomber |
I think we ALL do it, but many of us aren't aware that we're doing it, just like with countersteering . . . . . we're all of us decent physisists (sp?) . . . .gotta be just to get from here to the gas station | ||
| Jima4media |
I agree with the hanging off, countersteering and slow speed manuevers. 1. Hanging off keeps the bike more upright at high speeds. 2. Countersteering works at high speeds. Turn right to go left. 3. Regular steering works at slow speeds, and hang off on the opposite side of the bike for balance. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Joey |
Guys! I was just kidding! Countersteering--I remember talking to a Harley rider about it. He thought I was being silly, but I find that any steering I do above 15 MPH is steering one way to get a lean going the other way into the turn. | ||
| Blake |
hanging off opposite side = not leaning? There's more bullshit in this discussion than in my neighbor's pasture. In the 1st illustration JQ posted (the one on the left), what do you imagine will happen if the rider, as depicted, fails to turn the front wheel into the turn?  Whoever conjured up those illustrations doesn't know much about how a motorcyle turns, and even less about the physics and dynamics of objects in motion. I agree that slow turns don't require leaning with the bike; high speed turns don't necessarily require leaning either. I don't think it matters one way or the other on a public road... whatever technique with which you are most comfortable is probably best for you, as long as nothing is dragging and you can easily maintain control. If I am close to hitting the steering lock in a slow speed turn, the last thing I am going to do on a 400+LB street bike is start hanging off the opposite side in hopes of facilitating a tighter turn. The physics may be valid. Physics would also support reducing your turning radius by using the Craig Jones method of nailing a stoppie and letting the airborne rear end swing around, or lighting up the rear tire and letting it come around. They are all "physically" valid methods of tightening up the radius of slow turn. Are they something we should try on a 400+LB street bike on public roads? JQ, Anyone who believes that gyroscopic precession helps facilitate steering a motorcycle is mistaken. It does the exact opposite. I've covered that before in great detail. Your reference who claims gyroscopic precession aids high speed turning is wrong. | ||
| Reepicheep |
A simple illustration that countersteering (push right, go right) does happen, and that people already know how to do it, is actually pretty simple to explain with the following little story. Have a doubter go through the motions while you talk them through it. You are riding your bike. Put your palms up and press against each handlebar while you go in a straight line. Now, go around a right hand turn, leaning into it, still with your palms forward pushing on the bars. Now quick, lift your hand and wave to your friend while you are carving through the corner. They will raise the *left* hand, and since they are only using palms, that means they have to be pushing right to go right. Anyone who knows how to ride a bike knows all about counter steering, they just don't know it. As for leaning off the bike, I always end up regretting it when I disagree with Blake, but if I have to carve a really tight turn, either on my Cyclone or on a dirt bike, I crank the bike WAYYYYY over, and keep my body straight upright (if not a little the opposite of the turn). Turns on a dime, and does not fall over unless you stop. Seems to me, I can get X amount more turn by leaning the bike further and keeping myself upright. I can get Y amount more turn by leaning my body over and keeping the bike upright. I can get X + Y amount of turn by leaning the bike AND leaning my body. The funny "lean bike and body differently" scenarios only come into play when I want to match a given arc of turn with a given speed of the bike. If I am running out of ground clearance, give more body lean and less bike lean. If I want to be able to recover from the turn quicker (i.e. quick transition), I give more bike lean and less body lean. I've played with this... I can carve the same arc through the same turn at the same speed with either more bike lean and less body lean, more body lean and less bike lean, or equal body and bike lean (which inevitably falls right in between). |
