| Author | Message | ||
     12r |
Watched the film last night - quite a laugh ye-ha ! But I have some questions for you folks Stateside: * what're your feelings for the Confederate flag ? Does it really polarise opinions or is it simply part of your history ? * I must've had mah moonshine goggles on, but wuz them Duke boyz slidin' the General on a roundabout in Atlanta ? I thought it wuz just the lil ole UK that had them thar roundabouts  | ||
| Chainsaw |
1. Not a big fan of the Confederate Flag. I'm not from the South, I used to live there. When I see the flag flying over a business, to me no better than a sign saying "Whites Only". That said, I think the folks of South Carolina should decide how and where it flies (i.e. the State Capital or not). 2. Roundabouts are everywhere now. We have several in Colorado. | ||
| Whodom |
Mark, The Confederate flag (or more precisely the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia) is indeed a hot topic depending on what part of the U.S. you're in these days. I'm a 6th generation South Carolinian, and had several ancestors that fought in the Confederate Army. The flag still causes controversy here. The men who fought under this flag in combat were some of the toughest, hardest fighting, most dedicated soldiers that ever walked the earth. The vast majority of them didn't own slaves and certainly didn't intend to be fighting to preserve slavery. That said, people (particularly southerners) allowed this flag to be misused for ~50 years, causing it to become associated with the worst kind of racism. That's a real shame. In my own state, the Confederate flag was added to the flags on the state house dome (below the U.S. flag and S.C. flag) in about 1962, supposedly in recognition of the 100th anniversary of the War for Southern Independence. Unfortunately, this also coincided with the surge in the civil rights movement, so that flag detractors can make a good case that the flag was raised in protest of this movement. About 10 years ago, it was seen that this was a good polarizing political issue and a movement was started (mainly by the NAACP) to take the flag down. After several years of intense haggling, the state senate reluctantly agreed to take the flag down from the dome, and put a proper Confederate battle flag (square, not rectangular, with a white border) on a new flag pole in front of the state house adjacent to the existing S.C. Confederate soldier's monument. It was reasoned that this made it clear that the flag was there to honor those who had fought under it, and not to say that S.C. is still Confederate. While the majority of South Carolinians accepted this reluctant compromise, of course the NAACP would not be satisfied with it, and sometime afterwards instituted a tourism boycott of SC. This has failed miserably (tourism dollars have steadily risen since the "boycott" was announced) yet they still keep beating the drum to completely remove the flag from state property. Frankly, I think the average African-American person in S.C. couldn't care less about the flag, but the NAACP sees this as an issue they can continually use to get themselves in the news, raise membership, generate donations, etc. I did read one interview with the actors in from the Dukes of Hazard where they were asked about the flag on the roof of the "General Lee" and they said they didn't think it was any big deal, and that it certainly wasn't racist in that context. It's good to know that someone in Hollywood has common sense. | ||
| Djkaplan |
I used to belong to a classic car club when I lived in Perry, Georgia, a little town of 9,000 people. Our club jacket featured a large Confederate flag on the back with the name, "Perry Road Rebels". The club was not "whites only", but it did heavily discriminate - you were not allowed in unless you had a car that was made before 1963. Only a small, vocal minority really cares either way about the flag. Most of us just have more important issues to deal with. If the flag disappeared tomorrow, I wouldn't even notice. I still have that jacket, btw. My girlfriend howled in laughter when I modeled it for her. That's pretty much the reason it's been relegated to the back row of my closet, right next to my old "Members Only" jacket. | ||
| Bomber |
Who's got it right, 12 -- the Stars and Bars have remained a fairly polarizing symbol (in spite of some who claim it's the Cross of Saint ANdrew, and that they are showing pride in their Scots ancestory -- talk about a reach!) that said, the South has been the butt of many jokes over the years (some funny, some not), and this flag has taken on a meaning sorta kinda equal to "Southern Pride." While I didn't see the movie (and missed the TV show, being otherwise engaged), I doubt if many white people in the theater saw the flag as a racist symbol (supporting Who's quoting of the Hollywood types). That said, I also doubt that their were many persons of color in the theater -- this may mean nothing at all, or it may be data of great portent. There are lots of Southern people all over this country, and many more who "fly the rebel flag," if you will, by displaying the flag on their vehicals -- it CAN and does polarize opinions, but is generally ignored. All this coming from a (white) Northerner, who enjoys visits to the South, but has never lived there. There are roundabouts sprinkled around the US, but they are not nearly as common as they are elsewhere -- it's always easy to pick out tourists to an area by the way they react to them the first (or second) time. ;-} | ||
| Wardan123 |
1. When I moved from Ohio to South Florida in 1984 (a freshman in high school) there was a portion of our city's population that flew Confederate Flags from the back of their pick-up trucks and I asked my father why they did so. He explained to me that they "had the right to do so". I asked why they would want to. My father replied that some wanted a visual representation of their heritage, others wished to dispay their views on politics and race, and that a few were easily able to show their ignorance. To his way of thinking the Confederate Flag meant something different to each group (and possibly each other). When I asked why there wasn't a law preventing them from flying it, my father explained that not having legislation against the Confederate Flag was the surest way to keep the people with those varied views of it from uniting. Take the right to fly it away and those that wish to fly it have a cause, a crusade, a fight. Let people display it and they can honor their heritage, and/or express their views, and/or show their ignorance in relative isolation. These were the thoughts of my father and I took them for what they were - his opinion. From his explanation and my own experiences with those for and against it, I too see that the Confederate Flag is a symbol and as a symbol it has the potential to represent different things to different people. Many of my African-American, Hispanic, Caucasion, etc. friends see the flag as racist and view those that fly it as such. Our school system (Collier County Public Schools) has asked for sensitivity toward our much more diverse population and banned all flags on campus with the exceptions of: the American Flag, the Flag of the State of Florida, POW/MIA Flags, and/or a school flag. 2. Roundabouts are now a preferred way to slow/control traffic and beautify neighborhoods in Naples. (The center is tastefully landscaped.) | ||
| Djkaplan |
I lived in Atlanta for 20 years, and I can't ever remember driving on a roundabout. If there is one in Atlanta, I've never seen it. | ||
| 12r |
Thanks for your interesting replies everyone. My knowledge of US history is sketchy and I've always seen the Confederate flag as having 'rebel' or anti-establishment connotations rather than anything racist, but it seems this is a superficial perception. Good to hear your side of the story ! (Message edited by 12r on January 18, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
They have roundabouts in Texas... I saw one. None in Arizona yet  . "my father explained that not having legislation against the Confederate Flag was the surest way to keep the people with those varied views of it from uniting" Those are some very wise words, and they apply to a lot of isues. I wish more people, particularly politicians, would realize that. | ||
| Whodom |
Those are some very wise words, and they apply to a lot of issues. I wish more people, particularly politicians, would realize that. I totally concur. Along those lines, witness what happened with the 1st Confederate national flag (the actual "Stars and Bars", shown here: http://www.usflag.org/history/confederatestarsandbars.html). Some time in the late 1800's, the U.S. senate granted the United Daughters of the Confederacy (basically a group of little old ladies who were descendents of Confederate soldiers) a design patent on this flag. This ensured that this Confederate flag was not appropriated by racist groups, as approval had to be obtained from the UDC to use it. The patent had to be renewed by the U.S. senate on a regular basis to prevent its lapse. About 13 years ago, newly elected Senator Carol Moseley-Braun of Illinois decided to make some political hay for herself by making an issue of this patent. Of course, anyone who voted to renew the patent for the UDC was instantly branded a racist, and the patent was allowed to lapse. This means that the KKK or any other group of morons who'd like to appropriate this flag are now free to do so. | ||
| Bomber |
We make a lot of mistakes in Illinois Mosely-Braun was one of em | ||
| Glitch |
To me it's part of Southern Heritage. American by birth. Southern by the grace of God. But, I'm not ignorant as to how others view it. People get all wound up about it here in Georgia. It just came to pass that the Georgia state flag change from this:  To this:  The flag issue went on for years. It's over now, but there are people still mad about the whole thing, from both sides of the fence. | ||
| M1combat |
IMO the better flag to fly for sending an anti-establishment message would be the betsy ross... Only because I'm only against the modern establishment... Post industrial revolution. | ||
| Glitch |
I like this quote, from the link Hugh posted. It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights. | ||
| Bomber |
12r -- ya opened a right nice can o worms, bud! My Grandmother (born in 1903, in Missourah) refused to call the conflict anything other than "the Woah of Nothuhn Aggrssion" tough ol bird -- I never, ever crossed her | ||
| Whodom |
Bomber- good for your Granny. She reminds me of the legendary lady in my town who refused to deal in $5 bills as they had Lincoln's portrait on them! | ||
| CJXB |
They have roundabouts in Little Rock, AR I know cuz I had to drive roundabout them to get to my brother's house, and yes they were tastefully decorated in the middle !! | ||
| Glitch |
Oh yeah, the roundabout question. We got 'em here in L'ville. They're in neighborhoods though, not in the town. One's big enough, that if you want you can go round and round with your knee down. | ||
| Wardan123 |
Glitch - the quote you post is valid. I think the oversimplification of the Civil War being "about freeing the slaves" by much of our country contributes to the perception by many that the Confederate Flag is a "finite" sign of racism. This fact was satirized on The Simpsons with the Naturalization of Apu. Found on http://www.allaboutgeorge.com/archives/2001/01/much_apu_about.html "As the Simpson family prepares Apu for the Citizenship exam, this episode highlights how Apu's difference from them is constituted through his formal post-colonial education in India. When quizzed on the origins of the Civil War, Apu composes a long and complex explanation invoking the economic disparities of the North and South when he is instructed by a confused examiner to, "Just say 'slavery.'" "Slavery it is," says Apu, thus adopting the state's formal agenda in reproducing a dominant version of U.S. racial history. Adopting the notion that U.S. racial processes can be reduced to the overcoming of slavery is depicted, in this instance, as a precursor to citizenship. Apu's answer to this question on the citizenship exam satirizes the simplistic understandings produced by the U.S educational system and evidences Apu's very different relation to the study of history."  (Message edited by wardan123 on January 18, 2006) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I hate Illinois nazis. | ||
| Bomber |
Nate -- me too -- now if those Massachusett's chicklehead would just stay home ;-} | ||
| Whodom |
That episode about Apu's citizenship was great. When the examiner told him he had passed the exam, Apu yelled "Woohoo! Which way to the welfare office?!" When the examiner looked at him with a horrified expression Apu said "No, I am just kidding; I will work." Somebody writing for the Simpsons definitely had a spot in their heart for the south. They also had an episode where Bart's class went to a battle reenactment at Fort Simpson to watch the Union soldiers bravely slaughter wounded Confederates attempting to surrender. | ||
| Wardan123 |
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| Metalstorm |
I'm not from the south nor have I ever been to the south so I confess mucho ignorance here. But to me the Confederate flag simply means "Southerner" nothing more, nothing less. That's just my take on it. This thread has shed some light on the many different reasons people have for flying it. I won't ever assume anyone's intent for flying it unless I get to know the person first. My first impression will always be that it's just some one who's proud to be from the South. Edit: I warned y'all. I'm as ignorant as they come when it comes to this stuff & frankly all this PC BS makes me more nervous than a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I never know how to say anything without offending anyone anymore. (Message edited by Metalstorm on January 18, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
"I never know how to say anything without offending anyone anymore. " Then just don't worry about it when you aren't at work. "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death you right to say it." | ||
| Hiball |
I personally loved that movie too. It cracked me up. It was actually filmed in Louisiana. Most of the city scenes were filmed in Baton Rouge and the Hazzard County scenes in Zachary. The college scenes were actually at LSU. I do not recognize that roundabout though. During filming a friend of mine's daughter who is in highschool somehow talked her way onto the set to meet the actors. The actors were all interested in speaking to her and were very friendly and polite. When she got home she told her parents that she had met the cast : Jonny Knoxville, Sean William Scott, Willie Nelson, Linda Carter and some old guy whose name she could not remember. After some questioning her mother asked her if the old guy's name was Burt Reynolds she said that she thought that might be his name. | ||
| Road_thing |
"Missourah" Isn't that somewhere up there north of Dallas? | ||
| Raraf |
I am not patriotic but I find it humorous that people worship a flag that symbolizes a bunch of losers (as in they lost) that attacked the United States and tried to destroy it and failed. It would be like painting an al-qaeda flag on my car. But such is my opinion and it fortunately doesn't influence anyone. | ||
| Bomber |
Thang -- I'll learn you up, brother -- that is the proper pronounciation of the state what contains the city of Saint Louis -- several dinner eating standing up helped me remember ;-} | ||
| Whodom |
Raraf, to paraphrase another saying: it's a southern thing, you wouldn't understand. That does remind me of a good, non-offensive, War for Southern Independence joke: Right after the end of the war, a group of captured Confederates were doing time in a Yankee POW camp up north. This one old grizzled Confederate would stand by the fence every day taunting the young recruits. "Yea, y'all may have won the war, but we sure gave y'all hell at Chickamauga!" Every day he kept it up, and the new recruits would ask their superiors about the Confederate victory at Chickamauga. Morale plumetted. Finally one morning, the Union drill sargent marched into the commander's office and said "You've got to do something about that old reb. He's destroying our troop morale!" The CO replies, "Don't worry, I'll fix him." He has the grizzled old reb marched into his office, and plunks an "oath of loyalty to the Union" statement in front of him. "Reb, if you ever want to eat again, I'd strongly suggest you sign this. Now, be aware that if you do, and I hear about you bragging about your victory at Chickamauga, I will bring you up on charges of treason and have you shot at sunrise!" The old Rebel knew he was beaten, signed the oath, and slunk out of the office. The CO and sargent smiled at each other thinking they had really fixed him. The next morning the recruits marched out of their barracks past the old reb, who says: "You know, we may have won the war, but those Rebels sure gave us hell at Chickamauga!" |
