| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
This new law has been passed and is NOW IN EFFECT. You CAN and WILL be stopped and charged the fines if your state adopts the law. It essentially adds to the Clean air act of '79 (it adds a LOT of stuff, and will apparently MURDER the aftermarket parts industry) and it seems that they will begin to enforce the law. From what I hear... OCC, Arlen Ness, etc have been fined and a good deal of their bikes have been taken. That was third hand info and could be wrong, but please read the articles from ironhorse magazine on the page in the link and lets talk about this... It's VERY important. http://www.mrf.org/epa.php | ||
| Spiderman |
Too much stuff to wade thru... Do you have a copy of what the new law is? I remeber being up in Appleton for FBRAT and hearing about all the Tickets being handed out for pipes in FonDuLac <SP> I will be rackin up a lot of tickets if the law does go into effect... | ||
| Tramp |
this 'law' is being 'exposed' by a dot.org 501c3 foundation who purports to protect us all from the alleged 'new law' if we send them membership donations. prediction: BS | ||
| Oldog |
As Spidy said lots to wade through. In the end its about money and control, the quality of the air is secondary, | ||
| M1combat |
I haven't been asked for any membership donations at all... But the "American Iron" magazine doesn't seem to think it's BS at all. Maybe they're getting kickbacks  ? Are you telling me, Tramp, that the "hoopla" about only being able to own ONE "custom" motorcycle in your life time and that this motorcycle can ONLY be ridden to shows for display purposes is just hoopla? Are you saying that the $10K fines that can be imposed per violation (which includes changing tire sizes on a motorcycle that was engineered to these emissions standards) are hoopla as well? I'm all ears and my mind is open. Please give me the straight story if you indeed have it. Spidy... These laws are IN EFFECT NOW. From what I know the bill has been signed and TOOK EFFECT on 01-01-06. | ||
| M1combat |
Oldog... That's what it looks like to me too. From what I can tell... HD is completely behind this because they know it will utterly murder the aftermarket industry (except theirs). You'll have no shops that can re-jet a carb... No shops that can stroke an engine... Nothing. | ||
| Tramp |
Um...M1: here's the exact text of the exact page you linked- please read the very last sentence,you know, this one: "join the motorcycle riders foundation in this critical fight" when you click on that highlit phrase, it brings you right to the membership page: " Annual Individual Membership $25.00 Annual Joint Membership $40.00 Annual Sustaining Membership $100.00 3 Year Individual Membership $65.00 3 Year Joint Membership $100.00" so, looks like they DID ask you to donate, M1... anyway, here's the alarmist fund-raising bullsh*t " EPA Emissions Standards for Street Motorcycles The Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) new emissions standards will cost thousands of jobs and businesses in the American motorcycling community. The Motorcycle Riders Foundation (MRF) and motorcyclists nationwide repeatedly asked the EPA to consider establishing a reasonable, non-catalyst forcing emissions standard for highway motorcycles that even the smallest of bike makers can meet, while enabling motorcyclists to refine their machines to improve rideability and safety. For over three years, the MRF has worked in concert with State Motorcyclists' Rights Organizations (SMROs) and individual motorcyclists throughout the country to engage regulators, recruit the support of the U.S. Congress and take this struggle to the White House. We will continue to lead this fight for as long as it takes. But we need your help! Join the Motorcycle Riders Foundation in this critical fight to save motorcycling in America! " | ||
| Tramp |
you're going to see far more of this snake oil form various 501s this year, as their donation coffers have dwindled due to thier big corporate patrons giving all available spare change to Katrina relief and Tsunami relief funds. 501s are losing their annual patronages to these 'other' causes. frankly, i find it insulting and sleazy. | ||
| Roadsurfr |
I think that HD should worry. More people will buy what aleady has more hp than a Harley. Since you wont be able to hot-rod them. Butch | ||
| M1combat |
So. You still haven't told me what you think of this new law or proven that it is indeed a hoax. I didn't see the "give me money" portion because I wasn't looking for it... Try these... http://www.mrf.org/pdf/EPA-AI-1.pdf http://www.mrf.org/pdf/EPA-AI-2.pdf These are articles from "American Iron" magazine that spell out some of the new stuff... PLEASE prove to me that this is errant information. I would MUCH rather that it be so... | ||
| Tramp |
I am SO with you on THAT, M1! believe me! IF the amendments/supplements are, in fact, genuine (they are likely in the proposal phase, as are zillions of laws) I seriously doubt, being that V&T legislation and enforcement, both, are subjected on a state-by-state basis, that much would come of it. | ||
| M1combat |
I hear you there Tramp but you missed it... This law HAS PASSED and is IN EFFECT as of Jan 1 (or so I hear). I hear you though... I still have to be STOPPED by a law enforcement official but that's NOT the point. Being up here in the Northern AZ mountains I see Federal Marshals just about every day. They could stop me today... I understand. (Message edited by M1Combat on January 05, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
Please read those two Iron Horse articles Tramp... These laws went into effect on Jan-1 and right NOW the EPA is apparently willing to listen if enough people start yelling. | ||
| Spiderman |
I went for a ride on Jan 1st this year, passed 4 cops, waved at all of them and not one stop... I too read the article a few months ago about producing one bike a year crap, which I think is BS if they are for real. OK back to CAD drawings... | ||
| M1combat |
"which I think is BS if they are for real. " They are for real ATM, and yes, it's BS. A local cop can not stop you for it until the state adopts the law (keep in mind that barring the "new deal" each state is really a soverign nation, but that was pretty well screwed when Martial law was declared in WWII and was never revoked). Until the state does adowpt the law, only a federal law enforcement officer can make the stop. | ||
| Mountainrider |
The thing that burns me up is that we set around and complain about the laws being passed but we do nothing about it. We let people that know nothing about motorcycles make the rules for us. Every year there are more and more laws passed. The AMA is a joke. We make fun of ABATE but at least they fight for their rights. Until we decide to ban together and make sure that the people we vote for are motorcycle friendly we have a road ahead. The NRA makes sure that the laws and elections go their way. We need to unite just like the NRA. Here in north Ga. we have been targeted by the law enforcement. They even went as far as to say that they were going to target motorcyclist on the news. You can be behind a vehicle and you will be the one they stop and give the ticket to. I do not know how many times this has happened. There were all kinds of talk about it on the GSB forum. A guy I ride with was stopped for passing on the double yellow which he did do. He was following another vehicle and both passed at the same time but only he got the ticket. We are considered outlaws. THE DOT lowered the speed limits just so the troopers could write more tickets. In north Ga. most all the roads are down to 35mph. No one can ride or drive at that rate of speed for an extended time. I tried to unite the people but everyone just said the law is the law and we will have to live with it. This is our country and no law should be passed with out being approved by the voters. | ||
| Tramp |
M1- I'm aware the federal law hhas passed, but state mandates supercede federal in V&T. Also, "Iron Horse" is an old mag that morphed into "The Horse BC"... that mag (Iron Horse) hasn't been around for quite some time. The sky is NOT falling, don't sweat the newer federal supplements to the 1979 legislation. Few federal officers, incidentally, are settinmg up speed traps, incidentally. As I said : IT'S ANOTHER 501c3 NOT-FOR-PROFIT FOUNDATION TRYING TO DRUM UP FUNDING BECAUSE THEIR BIG CORPORATE PATRONS HAVE GIVEN ALL OF THEIR CHARITY WRITE-OFF FUNDS TO KATRINA AND TSUNAMI VICTIMS' FUNDS. THIS IS A SLIMEBALL MOVE ON THE PART OF THE FOOUNDATION WHO'DS ADVERTISING THIS LEGISLATIVE SUPPLEMENT. | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
Yep. Per our mighty constitution the federal govt. cannot infringe upon the states right to self govern. e.g. I could still legally buy a 30 rd. magazine here in AZ even though the federal assault weapons ban was in effect. It may have passed, but no state is going to concur with it and stifle all the small businesses that deal in the aftermarket. | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
For all you literalists out there... I know that's not the exact wording of the Constitution... | ||
| Oldog |
WARNING RANT ......  .......................} Ok I wish to weigh in here, I can't speak for any one in any other industry, nor will I debate about law and the conistution. What I can tell you.... having worked in the treated wood industry for a chemical supplier one of the big 3 for the industry. 1. the epa forced the change in the industry to an "environmentaly friendly" material, for their convience., they did not want to hear one more toxic wood play set story. or how arsenic was found in the ground water at so-N-so was from treated wood. 2. the "science" employed to prove how arsenic was getting into water in various places, Florida being one was questionable, and they can not to this day tell any one how much is too much. Under the current standards some small towns may be selling "city water" that does not meet proposed standards for various metals and or arsenic. 3. the companys that make the checical had stopgap metals based systems available that are in use in europe, these cost many times what CCA [wolmans' salts] cost to produce, competition had erroded profits for some of the companys to the point where they welcomed a change because the change allowed a siginificant increase in the profit for them, (no profit no job) 4. The actual producers had to spend large sums of money to "clean out" and refit their equipment, then change to a more difficult to use material, that cost about 4x as much because it "did not contain aresnic", I will not go into the "shoddy" cleanouts that I saw, or will I discuss usage problems or issues producers have had to deal with (suppliers or users) 5. the end results, chemical cos' have more issues producing these materials, the lumber cos' have more issues and costs producing the materials, the consumer is paying more for lumber that is not quite as usefull as it uset to be BUT THE EPA CAN TELL ANY ONE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE "OLD" WOOD TREATMENT THAT THE NEW STUFF IS "ARSENIC & CHROME" FREE, Why yes Georgia dear you can eat the swing set and picnic table if you want What they wont tell you is that CCA is still in "industrial use" and that they don't care that new alternative systems are more costly to use for a variety of reasons. HOW THIS PERTAINS TO "US" MOTORCYCLE OWNERS some points 1. In the EPA presentation a table is shown with a yamaha R6 vs 2 other cars, from this data they go on to say that motorcycles produce upwards of 10X the emissions of autos, per distance traveled under "test" conditions, I suspect that the data is "flawed" 2.the materials then go on to state that it is allready illegal to alter the engines systems if that causes an increase in emissions INCLUDING NOISE. 3. they will force the states to enforce by with holding funding for maintenence and expansion from the fed. I don't know how to proceed except find out who voted the rules in and get them out of washington and start applying pressure to the various state reps and feds that are elected. in my experience the EPA is seldom entirely right or wrong, In this case as in the TW above the EPA INFO is Likely BOGUS I for one want the government to leave my bike alone, there are more important things to do like work on cleaner alternative energy sources... (Message edited by oldog on January 06, 2006) | ||
| 2hogs |
Hey All, I didn't see this on any website, just articles in American Iron magazine. Building a custom bike isn't a big concern, but adding performance mods to existing bikes is. What I got from the magazine articles was that the EPA emissions regs are getting tighter starting this year (2006) and get gradually tighter until 2010. Course, enforcing these stricter laws is the key. I don't think the manpower is available to effectively enforce the rules. I mean the Clean Air act has been around since '79 and we still modify our cars, trucks, etc. Well I have anyway. I don't think LEOs are going to bother stopping you just for a noise violation, but if you're doing something else they can cite you for maybe a noise violation can be tacked on. Cheers | ||
| Tramp |
oldog- the EPA resrictions on treated lumber weren't subject to any state supercedents. V&T law is. enormous difference. huge. apples and oranges. | ||
| Mikej |
This topic has been discussed at some length several times already on the site here. Things are changing, some for the better, some for the worse, YMMV. Anybody want to buy an M2 with all the stock components still available for it????? I'm thinking in about 6 months to 6 years it will be worth $10,000 (or $1,000 if you listen to some). It can be your's for today's low price of just $5,500. Yes, that's right, $5,500. This price includes a marginally illegal carbon fiber air filter installed, the original breadbox air filter assembly in a box, the stock exhaust muffler on the bike, and a soon to be illegal aftermarket exhaust muffler in a box. Yes, you too can be the outlaw of your dreams, put on the outlaw parts and rip your neighborhood to shreads, then put the stock stuff back on before the EPA compliance police show up and be Mr. Decency again as they cruise around your local 'hood with their sound and exhaust sniffers trying to track down scofflaws and outlaws. And if you act today a brand new unmounted stock factory specified rear tire will be included at no extra charge, yes - at no extra charge. Your mileage may vary, subject to prior sales, local ordinances are the buyer's responsibility as is any liability to compliance issues. None of the preceeding should be considered factual nor fictional, it's just words on the Internet. Besides, I was out ice fishing on an unfrozen lake when this was typed, ask me to tell you about it sometime.  | ||
| Tramp |
mikej- if you have a problem with me posting about fishing, just tell me directly. F*ck it, I'll stick with buell only posts from here in. | ||
| Mikej |
Seeing as how I don't recall any fishing pics being posted, that would be the only problem I have with your fishing. Fact is I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that . Got an indirect relative over here who likes to ride his dirt bike on the frozen river, he's spent the last several weeks drilling/driving screws into his tires, currently there is not a speck of frozen river anywhere near us right now. Got another indirect relative who likes to ice fish, going to probably be February before he gets to go again locally. Last year we had ice everywhere, this year the Polar Bear club swimmers on New Year's Day were going back into the water 3 or 4 times before they dried off. Last year most of the geese were gone by now, last weekend I drove down to the waterfront by Lake Michigan because I heard what sounded like thousands of geese, sure enough when I lit up the shoreline with a big flashlight there were thousands of geese out there having one huge party or something, at least it sounded like a party with all the cackling and goosing going on. But, no, no problem with your fishing stories. In fact I like your stories, please post more often, no matter what the topic is. It's all good with me   | ||
| Mikej |
This is what the current ice anglers look like this week around here:  (Message edited by mikej on January 06, 2006) | ||
| Bomber |
I'd be hisitant to use Iron Horse as an itelligence source, for all the reasons Tramp stated, plus the fact that the enthusiast press is not noted for it's exemplary journalistic skills (examples abound, so I'll not use the bandwidth) has the law passed? you betcha is it good/bad/indifferent? open to debate (me, I think it's approaching the problem of air pollution from the wrong end of the spectrum -- while large industrial pollutors can continue with minimal fines or by swapping credits around, making MikeJ replace his wileyco with the stock can is laughable, but it IS gubmint after all, which is known to go after those it can win against) will it be enforced by the states/community LEOs? I would submint that any enforcement will be spotty, local in scope, infrequent, and used more as harrassment than a tool to increase air quality in the States . . . . . Executive Summary -- the law is a result of wooly thinking, and will likely have minumal impacts on riders overall -- this, of course, does not mitigate the discomfort felt by those few that WILL be discomforted No fish were bothered in the creation of this post, btw | ||
| Mikej |
Let's see, I've got the old broken WileyCo, and the new improved never before mounted WileyCo, if I put both on the bike at the same time it should be twice a quiet, right????? Now to just decide if I want them parallel or in series then I can get started on the winter project mods. 'scuse me now whilst I go scratch my head and try to remember if I have enough acetylene in the tank to do the project.  ps, I had fish for dinner last week, can't say it wasn't bothered though.  | ||
| Mikej |
They are coming: http://eldadaelectronics.tripod.com/silentec/id25.html  | ||
| Ftd |
Lots of discussion concerning this on custom bike forums (clubchopper.com is a good one). There is a lot of fear in the home built/custom bike community over this law. Frank | ||
| Cruisin |
If I recall correctly, the new law is that you are allowed to build one non epa compliant bike in your lifetime - this bike can be ridden on any road for any reason. You can't sell it for five years after you build it. You can build 24 "showbikes" per year which basically are bikes that will have a little sticker on it indicating it complies with certain laws - that basically state the bike can only be ridden on public roads for the purpose of going to or from a showing/contest that the bike will be in. So I can buy an OCC bike and ride it out West as long as I'm going to put the bike in some sort of show or contest. No restrictions on distance. How does this impact customers of OCC & the like? It just means that they have to pay for the parts in advance (OCC is basically putting together the customers once in a lifetime bike). Is the officer stopping you going to know the difference if it's a restricted showbike or not? Somehow I doubt it... | ||
| M1combat |
Of course they will... You'll have to show "your papers"... | ||
| Oldog |
tramp: the idea about the wood was to illustrate that one of the larger industries (building materials) was delt a harsh blow, by the governmet- with some questionable benifits. not the specifics of the law,who it applies to, etc sorry that you misconstrued.. the idea was that this legislation is rather inanne at this time, for reasons i think that i point to above we as a community had better pay attention here our hobby / lively hood is being legislated right out from under us my .02$ is when the rest of the world has stopped building 2 stroke motorcycles of any kind, then lets talk about this stuff, till then the tax payer is better served enforcing other environmental laws, cars specificly there are way more cars on the road than bikes, perhaps 10 to 100 times, | ||
| Xldevil |
My friend from SF has sent me an email: Harley-Davidson, Inc. $10K Fine for that Muffler Change By HOGridin January 10, 2006 So you like the added pull your Harley gives after having put on a simple to install high flow air cleaner and intake assembly, some slip-on exhaust (even though they are not too obtrusively loud) and rejetted the carb to get a little more energy in those cylinders. Maybe you even put in the Big Bore 95cu-in kit, changed the cams, increased the carb size, added a Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner and changed the rear tire to get seat-of-the-pants performance that stock bikes just don't have. These changes can net you as much as 35% more horsepower and nearly as much torque. Well, the cost of performance like that may have just gone up. In fact, instead of $2,500 for a Big Bore kit, the price tag could be $12,500 if the EPA has its way. According to the Federal Register, Volume 69, No. 10 the EPA interprets the Clean Air Act section 203(a) to mean that it is illegal for any person to remove [or alter] any device on an engine involved in that vehicles passage of emissions compliance by the original manufacturer. Under this interpretation, even a gear ratio change or non-stock rear tire can have an effect on engine operation by changing where it operates in its power band for a given vehicle speed thereby effecting its emissions. One of the most popular Harley modifications is the 95cu-in Big Bore kit. Since your bike was not approved for emissions with this configuration, the EPA would disallow you and/or your dealership from making this enhancement unless someone spends lotsa bucks on getting EPA-certified testing done on the changed machine. The Industry will take care of this The Motorcycle Industry Council (the MIC serves major motorcycle manufacturers who would love near monopolistic control of where we all spend our after-purchase dollars) through its American V-Twin Aftermarket Committee had asked for a letter of guidance from the EPA. However, by requesting this process, the MIC would have stopped normal EPA public hearing and commenting for a period so that you & I, as well as small motorcycle shops and custom m/c builders could express our positions on these matters that so pointedly affect us, our hobby and our pocket books. The Motorcycle Riders Foundation, the only true national organization representing street riders exclusively (the AMA gets considerable funding from the major m/c manufacturers), told the EPA that the proposed letter of guidance for the MIC would ultimately give several large companies an unfair advantage in the industry. The MRF believes the rules they are trying to implement would inadvertently be detrimental to the industry, particularly small shops and builders. The MRF's interest in this is to preserve the lifestyle of motorcycling as we know it. The MRF does not have a financial interest in, nor does it want to be financially involved with, businesses. Unfortunately, many shop owners and motorcycle riders talked to by American Iron Magazine still do not realize what is going on. A false belief that the EPA and state gubmints will not enforce the new laws, like they didn't enforce the old ones of similar restrictions, some dating back to 1977, 1979 and 2004. Several California shops have already been given violations by CARB officials. And with noise complaints in many communities growing in number and frequency, local gubmint will often cave to pressure from influential politicians and community leaders and look for ways to get control. They will be able to use these new laws to fine m/c owners and even penalize m/c shop owners to the point of closing them down. Innovation will suffer; gone will be Rinehart true-duals, S&S intake systems, and Jim's or Axtell large cylinder heads. If you modified your bike more than adding chrome and paint, even a 1999 Harley Road King, by exhaust and a cam changes, what will it be worth when you go to sell it and conformance to 1999 emissions is measured by it having all stock engine components? And that might be what is needed in order to trade it in or to resell it. But there's more cars and trucks out there Heck, your neighbor kid, like so many younger kids these days, has his Honda Civic all tuned with new injectors, air-intake, header, Borla exhaust, engine control module and new mapping so that it screams. And the other neighbor has his GMC 4x4 all hopped up diesel motor with Flow Master exhaust and remapped injectors and engine performance. Why would the gubmint go after a lowly motorcycle when it gets 46-52mpg and contributes so little to traffic congestion, road wear & tear and air born pollutants in the face of these monster cages that contribute so much more? Why does the gubmint do anything? In an era of Gee Dubya #43 loosening industry requirements on pollution, the EPA, with support for the MIC, is poised to come after motorcycle shops, dealerships and even owners of motorcycles who have changed anything more than chrome & paint. About clean air Thinking the EPA is only trying to clean up the air we breathe is a mistaken position. By example, if that were true, why would they be considering a "Pay to play" option where an owner could pay for each non-conformance motorcycle they produce? So what to do? I for one am not willing to go back to a stock bike. Get your riding buddies, service techs and shop owners at your motorcycle shop of choice to understand your concern too. Print out copies of the articles mentioned below available at the provided link. Highlight things that catch your eye and concern you. Take them to other riders and make them away of what is going on. The California Air Resources Board (CARB), a bleeding edge emissions gubmint body that, due to the size of the California marketplace, usually creates market changes for industry as they do not want to make two versions of every product, 49-state and a California version. CARB and the EPA are joining forces for a Technology Progress Review in 2006. The EPA will use the results of this review to propose any changes to the rule it feels may be warranted. The MRF is working with the Small Business Administration to gauge the effect on small businesses. Unfortunately very few shops showed up in recent meetings to share their concerns. The MRF needs your input, and that of your local motorcycle shops and dealerships. Make these business owners aware of this issue. Be forewarned though, many will tell you not to worry and that the EPA will never implement any of these rules nor will they enforce them. I think this resistance comes from them being too harried with running day to day operations and not wanting to add another item on their "to-do" lists. Here are links for articles put out by American Iron Magazine that further (better and clearer too) explain the issues at hand. Sept. 2004 issue - "The EPA Regs and You" by Marjorie Kleiman May 2005 issue - "EPA For the Layman" by Dave Dwyer Jan. 2006 issue - "Want a $10,000 EPA Fine?" by Dave Dwyer Feb. 06 issue - "EPA Action Form" by Dave Dwyer The Questionnaire form to print out and mail to the MRF http://www.aimag.com/epa/owners.htm Btw.German regulations AND controlls are much more restrictive! F.e. there is only a little chance to ride a force or pro series muffler on a public road , for more than a week, without being fined and the cancellation of the bikes registration. (Message edited by xldevil on January 13, 2006) |
