| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>I know people smarter than me are working on it. That's an extremely accurate statement. | ||
| Daves |
 | ||
| Blake |
Mike, Two of your points above are horribly troubling to me, especially seeing them posted in a public forum and by someone who I've come to appreciate, respect and admire in very great measure. I only herein rebut those points because I think they are horribly unfair, even irresponsible and strangely and completely out of character for you. I hope you'll welcome my typically frank response with good-will as that is how it is intended, no matter how the words might otherwise appear. I'm not angry or indignant; I'm more sad and disappointed.  And it is not the nature of your own personal views that is most troubling to me. It is their public expression for all the world to see, not by some naysaying troll, but by someone who has garnered much appreciation, admiration and respect from the Buell community here. If you were not so appreciated, respected and admired, an expression of such troubling opinions/feelings would not concern me so much. So again, please accept my rebuttal and criticism as a friend and with the due respect with which they are intended to be delivered. Mike! You dumb •••! You don't know what the hell you are talking about! That was supposed to be humorous.  Okay, forgive my horrible comedic expressions, on to the serious discussion...  "Tank-slappers happen sometimes, but being on the verge of one should never be considered acceptable for a streetbike." Is that not a horribly unfair/irresponsible public statement to lay at the feet of the Ulysses, especially when based on such a meager sample and with entirely incomplete/premature findings on the issue? I think so! Break-away steering head: ...I don't fully trust snap-load failures and find them very difficult to design for, and when I see forks that have broken away at the steering head but the forks still appear to be straight I have this underlaying feeling that perhaps it was a snapload failure that might or might not have failed prematurely. Is that kind of wondering at all responsible to offer publicly? Based upon a few photographs of crashed bikes and the words of in my view some ego-driven jackass engineer (the engineering profession unfortunately does seem to suffer more than a fair share of those types) about the design properties of taffy, is it responsible to deduct that the forks of an XB remain unaffected though the steering head had broken away and consequently that the break-away structural system is suspect, possibly problematic? No matter wrt the forks. Those forks are EXTREMELY robust, so they may well survive catastrophic impact unyielded. Is it logical to then jump to the conclusion that the structural break-away failure mode is problematic? Of course not! Isn't a properly engineered sacrificial steering head better than having fuel spill all over the place? I think yes, absolutely! Structural aluminum is not taffy, nor is its behavior so random and undefined! That analogy sounds smart, but it is entirely misleading and if intended to apply to the break-away steering head, horribly irresponsible! Every structual grade aluminum alloy is a well-known material whose structural performance is well ensured by rigorous industry standards, mandated minimum acceptable structural properties/specifications, and through well-known and precisely controlled geometry. It is not at all difficult for a well-educated experienced structural engineer to design-in an intentional failure mode, a structural circuit-breaker if you will. In fact, in order to avoid the most catastrophic failures, our structural codes for buildings and bridges ensure that we do exactly that. They aren't made of taffy either. Will there be some variation in the applied loading required to cause the desired mode of structural failure? Of course, just like there will be a slight variation in the amperage required to trip a certain model/configuration of circuit breaker. The important thing is that the desired failure occur for loading neither less nor more severe than deemed acceptable, in other words within an astutely determined specified range of loading. THAT is not at all difficult to do. Despite the assertions to the contrary by some egomaniac engineer. To clarify, if said engineer made that "taffy" comment relative to something other than the break-away steering head issue, then I rescind my harsh words for him/her and merely point out that they do not apply in this case, not at all, not in the least. If one cannot trust the structural engineers whose entire heavily-shouldered responsibility it is to ensure that such structural systems perform as intended and are indeed entirely safe, I cannot imagine ever crossing a bridge, entering a large building, standing next to any pressure vessel, or traveling via train, aircraft, ocean-going vessel, automobile, motorcycle or any vehicle in general. Pretty darn sure the engineers know what they are doing and spent an incredible amount of time, effort and resources not only analyzing, but testing and verifying the integrity of the structural safety system employed in the Buell XB chassis. Again, I think it is horribly unfortunate and irresponsible to suggest otherwise. If not, and based upon actual events and overwhelming supporting evidence, should we now also lose faith that Honda's frames will not crack and fall apart? No that would be wrong too. But it sure would be infinitely more justified. Cheers amigo, Blake (professional structural analyst) | ||
| Whodom |
Isn't a properly engineered sacrificial steering head better than having fuel spill all over the place? I think yes, absolutely! Here's a thought- aside from the fuel retention issue, might not the break away steering head be a rider safety enhancement in some accidents? For instance, say you T-bone a guard rail on a curve at ~70 MPH and the forks don't give and the steering head doesn't break. When the front tire strikes the rail, the rear of the bike lifts, pivoting around the front axle with little loss of momentum and actually accelerates your a$$ off the seat and over the guard rail into whatever waits beyond. In the case of an XB, the break away steering head fractures, allowing the front wheel to collapse into the engine and likely dissipate a considerable amount of energy, slightly slowing the bike (and therefore you) before you before make the trip over the guard rail. No doubt you're in for a rough landing in either case, but I'll bet your odds of surviving a crash like this are measurably better on the Buell than on another motorcycle. | ||
| M2nc |
Uly tank slappers? What? The bike handles great and is very responsive to operator's commands which increases the chance of operator malfunction. The Uly is a bit numb in comparison to the M2, but I have smoked through corners at faster speeds without trying than I've ever managed on the M2. I personally know the Uly doesn't handle worth a S**T on Ice. Piece of Junk, must be a defect in its engineering!!! Just kidding, The bike is great, but still a slave to the rider. Treat it with respect and it will reward you with one of the best all around rides out there. | ||
| Blake |
Whodom, I don't think so. While you can imagine a specific scenario where the break-away steering head might provide some added protection against sever injury, I's sure there are just as many scenarios one could imagine where the opposite might be true. | ||
| Rocketman |
To be clear, I said Buell bikes made $25M divided by 10000 units. That's $2500 per Buell in PRE TAX profit. I don't know what the US government tax is to a large company on such a large sum, but over here it's about 40% after a certain amount earned. Whatever it is, even if it's a lesser amount of tax you pay in the US, it's gonna bite into that $2500 per unit. Put it another way, if my figures are that ridiculous, who funds Buells future development? So your figures are Bus driver, or would you rather not lose face? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Glitch, last time I rode the 916 was in early August. Since then she's been tucked up in bed with a new battery, and that 'bed' is at a friends safe place of keeping. I called friend yesterday and asked him to fire her up, and check on the battery in case I need to take the Optimate there for winter storage. As of yet, friend not got back to me with results. I'll call him tomoz and see if the 916 hit the target. No silence or lies.......... Rocket | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Of more importance for the future, what is the average age of a Buell buyer? H-D's average age seems to grow by nearly a year every year, and with that average age in the late 40s those folks are not going to be buying a whole lot more high profit Harleys... On the other hand if Buell is doing well with under 30 riders and at least those under 40 that's as important a trend as current profitability. BTW, with Buell sharing so many parts and resources with HD it's hard to tell which is contributing a profit, and I'd suspect any claims of high profits or losses from Buell. | ||
| Midknyte |
There was another thread here a week or three ago with survey stats that showed the average age of us Buellers dipping down from 40's to now 35. | ||
| Court |
We all can thank HD for the little Christmas gift yesterday . . .
Big deal around here. | ||
| Blake |
"and with that average age in the late 40s those folks are not going to be buying a whole lot more high profit Harleys... " I've heard that before and pretty much accepted it as basic conventional wisdom. But when analyze it, that statement comes up a bit lacking. I personally know of way too many seniors who ride and buy new bikes into their late '60s and beyond. Young folk cannot afford a big new H-D and not many who lack a garage in which to park are going to buy one. The fact that the unit sales of H-D's is continuing to climb steadily is difficult to show in a bad light. | ||
| Blake |
Court, Could you translate that into East Texan for me? | ||
| Midknyte |
Blake, I believe what I saw/read was relative to Buells only, not Buells + HD's. | ||
| Dragon_slayer |
Buellgrrrl, silly me, here I am being 53 yrs. old in two weeks, buying Buell's most expensive model, the Uly, and with a luggage purchase on top of that! Oh, and since my biking clothing is getting worn and outdated, I also made a large purchase in this area. But you are right about me not buying many more H-Ds, bought more than my fair share of them in the 80s. All you youngsters can thank me later for helping to keep H-D alive through the 80s. Erik was working as an engineer for H-D back then. Midknyte, must be the 60's "Wild Child" in me but, I am doing my part at 52 yrs. to mess with that average Buell owner age! By the way, I will wait for you youngsters to catch up. But hurry, I will only be here for another 52 years!  | ||
| Blake |
Midknyte, Gotcha the first time amigo. My post above was in reference to the quoted statement by Buellgrrrl. | ||
| Daves |
Dragon, You're just a youngin, I sold a Uly to a guy that is 63 years old a couple weeks ago. That is too cool! | ||
| Dragon_slayer |
Daves, I did not say I was OLD, just older than before. And it's good to know I am not the only one that is putting a twist in the shorts of the perception of age. Age is changing and some people are a little slow to recognize this. That's alright because age teaches you that most of us will get a chance to realize what the ones before us were trying to tell us. | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake, I was thinking the same thing, except plain English would do  Anyway, we was talking Buell profits. Not HD. Rocket | ||
| Mikej |
(I had a whole long response typed up, but decided instead to head off to e-bay and shop for a Happy Hat to wear when out in public.) g'day. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=6817&post=558912#POST 558912 | ||
| Rocketman |
Well Mike I'm still waiting to hear what the Bus man thinks he can build an XB for seeing as he thinks my 5G is off base. Funny, but there's a company looking for people to sell fashion jewelery here in the UK. The mark-up on sales is 200% If I go to the wholesalers I can buy any number of alcoholic drinks for around 5 times cheaper than what I'd expect to pay across a bar. In 1994 when GM launched the 'new' Saab 900 range it cost on average £5000 to build each unit. The average sale price was around £15000. Look how the retail prices have dropped by half or more over the last year or two for DVD players, digital cameras, music systems etc etc etc. They're practically giving away video recorders now they're all but obsolete. Plastic bags are (allegedly) free at the supermarket. The world is full of over priced goods. So how much to build an XB? Rocket | ||
| Xlcr |
And one of the most overpriced ones out there is the 999. | ||
| Rocketman |
Only in America my unfortunate friend. You can pick up some real 999, and Italian, bargains in the UK. Rocket | ||
| Mikej |
Rocket/Sean, What does a decent 999 go for in your region these days? Just curious. I checked traderonline.com for grins and they seem to want $11,999-$20,999 for them over here. Again, just curious. | ||
| Glitch |
That's $2500 per Buell in PRE TAX profit. There is no such animal. No silence or lies.......... It's all good, I was just funnin' with ya. I'm sure she'll crank right up. The world is full of over priced goods. Amen! Brother. I've skimmed back through this thread, and I can't find anyone claiming Buell is shutting down next year, is slowly dying, HD is fed up and dropping Buell... Times they are a changin' | ||
| Midknyte |
Astute observation Glitch. And agreed - it is progress  | ||
| Blake |
Sean, Please drop it. You don't accept the numbers anyway. This ain't interesting anymore. | ||
| Rocketman |
Drop what Blake? The Buell profit margin? I see no harm in it. Most everyone here has said they don't care what the profit margin is, citing they are more than happy with their Buell no matter what they paid for it. No one else has actually said the opposite so if no one has a problem with pricing / profit why can't we debate it? Why isn't this interesting? I'm in the motor trade and I find it very very interesting. But as you wish, I'll quit. My apologies if I offended. I thought we were going somewhere interesting with this thread. That would have been truly revolutionary. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Mike, cheapest 999 I can find advertised is £9999 ($17700), but it's two weeks to christmas so many dealers aren't advertising. That's an 05 bike with 0 miles, brand fire new! An immaculate 04 999 Mono (that's the one with the Ohlins nitrided forks) with 3500 dry miles, asking £7299 ($13000) A late 02 (Sept on) 999 Biposto with 2800 dry miles, described as totally original and immaculate, asking £5700 ($10100) It's a great time to buy right now but the best Ducati deals are on the earlier 916 genre. This week MCN are showing two 916 private sales. A 1995 916 30000 miler with new clutch and recent service £2500 ono ($4400 obo) A 1994 916 33000 miler with Ohlins, Termi's \ chip etc and other goodies, asking £2795 ($5000) They're the ones to buy in my book. Rocket | ||
| Court |
|
