| Author | Message | ||
     Road_thing |
OK, Dave, that rips it... ...double okra for you! rt | ||
| Oldog |
engineering for Marketing sake RT can I have some Okra, Fried please!...... | ||
| Daves |
Where's my bathroom scale at? | ||
| Road_thing |
Oldog, you betcha! Be at el ranchito chingadero around Jan 21... rt  | ||
| Dbird29 |
But what's a henway? | ||
| Redrocker |
"Further, the Net Income number you are referring to is not the number you should be using to calculate the wholesale price of the product, you would need to use Cost of Goods Sold." You lost me there. Admittedly, I'm no accountant for sure. I simply used Buell's total revenue of $79M divided by their 9,900 motorcycles sold to find the ~$8K average unit wholesale price. Not sure you want to apply the overall HDI numbers to the Buell average wholesale price, which appears to be what you did. Agreed, but what is missing from the available information (at least what I can find) is the cost of goods sold for the Buell division. If you are interested in HDI overall, probably best to look at just HDMC which dominates by far the lion's share of the HDI books. In round numbers, HDMC sold some 317K motorcycles for a total revenue of around $5B. That puts their average wholesale price at around $15.8K per bike. If they made a net income on that of some $811M, that amounts to an average net profit after taxes of $2,558/bike per bike. And so a net profit margin of 19.3%. On the financials page that you posted it shows sales of HD motorcycles generating 3.928B from shipments of 317,289 units (HD Brand only) which works out to $12,380.51 per unit sold on average. I can't comment on the profit margin on those sales because they don't list a cost of goods sold segregated to just motorcycles. The net income figure is useless because everything but the kitchen sink is thrown into the P & L before that number is posted. It's the difference of actual profit and the creative application of profits that differentiates gross profit from net profit. All in good fun, I personally hope that HD makes a bucketload of money on the Buell division so they will keep producing bikes that separate me from my cash! | ||
| Blake |
Dave, No way. That SSSArm is a thing of beauty. Difinitely NOT engineering for engineering's sake. Not really that darn much rigorous engineering either, at least compared to that required to make the ZTL brake/wheel work so well. RedRocker. That $12.38K cost per bike makes a lot more sense. Thanks for finding and posting the accurate figure on that. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rocket, You always speak with such condescending confidence. If you can build XBs for $5000 per bike, man, start your own business. You have some magic manufacturing secrets that no one else does. Where does this incredible knowledge base come from? | ||
| Rocketman |
I'd wager that you'd not tell us if she didn't. Glitch, would I lie?  I wouldn't pay $1,500 for a Rolex either. Mike, I know what you mean, though I do like old or unusual clocks, time pieces. Watches of such high prices seem to say two things. One of those has very little to do with keeping time. By the way, I've always liked those BMW C1's. Yes it does have a seat belt. Bomber, trust you to come up with the rear steer info LOL. You're always pizzing on my bonfire Keep up the good work! Having driven both fork lift trucks and dumper trucks, as the site manager from Squire Swifts will tell you, first day conversation. "Ever driven a dumper before Sean?" "Nope." "Ok. 2nd gear for site work. 3rd for road use." "Ok." Two hours later and dumper stuffed and stuck firmly in tree lined ditch, site manager appears. "What happened?" "Er, ...." "I told you, 2nd gear site work. 3rd gear road use." You and I both know how he knew don't we LOL. I was only 18 at the time though! Before GS&A and taxes, which is what you seem to be talking about, yes the gross profit is going to be significantly higher So we're agreed then Blake, or at least probably not that far apart? Remember though, this conversation wasn't about the profit Buell makes, nor the value of their product, subjective or otherwise (Bruce). It was simply to determine how much per unit it costs to manufacture a Buell motorcycle on average. I'm sticking with my figure. I'd be a fool not to as I'll never know the answer anyway so why shoot myself in the foot now I would never agree that a Ducati is by default intrinsically a better value than the current lineup of Buell motorcycles. You'd first need to define what you mean by "better value." I already did. Several times............. Non of us are that blind we can't see that a Ducati is of better value than a Buell when we consider the situation from an engineering / manufacturing / parts tally comparison. You seem to be stuck on Buells innovative technology as their core value against say Ducati. Remember, I did include the Japanese in this scenario. I just focused more on Ducati because I know how well engineered my 916 is, so when I work on that and my S1W I have a reference point. I did also say I wasn't favouring Ducati though it's hard not to from the better quality standpoint. That said, I don't own a 'modern' Buell, as in XB platform, and I have no experience of ever working on one either. I have however spent a few hours here and there studying them from close up with the specific intention of taking in the manufacturing and engineering involved. Based on my limited findings I'd still say that FOR EXAMPLE a Ducati offers more for your money in terms of what quantity of materials went into the build of the motorcycle. As Bruce keeps pointing out, and it's hard to argue against his point, the purchase and ownership of our Buells or Ducati's is subjective. I tried to veer off the subjective track and that's where I'm pitching from when I say "FOR EXAMPLE a Ducati offers more for your money in terms of what quantity of materials went into the build of the motorcycle". I'm not sure that one could argue that point is subjective. One last thing Blake. I'm a man of great passion for any object that's well engineered. Simple or otherwise. I can see the massive appeal of what makes the XB platform turn people on. It does make for a very clever and perhaps simple in many respects motorcycle. I believe this true of the tube framers too, but in reality the tube framers are somewhat of a dinosaur in todays high tech market, but again their appeal was simplicity, which translated to minimalism. Have some respect amigo??? I'm offended you think I haven't. Several times in this thread I've attempted to let us all know that I'm not bashing any Buell motorcycle. Well now I mention it, you have to admit the Blast is a joke from any other standpoint other than commercial. Whodom, single sided swing arms were invented for endurance racing, not strength. As Blake said, Ducati dropped the sssa on their 999 / 749 range in an effort to stiffen up the rear and improve the handling of their Super Bike race machines, which translates to street bikes for homologation purposes. Xl, Delphi invented the first hydraulic lifters back in the 30's. Duesenberg had hydraulic brakes back in the 20's. Harley may have been the first to use these designs on their motorcycles but they certainly didn't invent them. Nor did HD invent the disc brake (I know you didn't say they did). An English fella invented disc brakes in the late 19th century, though what for back then I don't know. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Condescending confidence indeed? What does a bus driver from Florida know about the build cost of an XB anyway? What makes you think I couldn't build an XB for $5000? Actually I thought my figures stacked rather well based on a $79.000.000 turnover. $5000 x 10000 Buells = $50.000.000 manufacturing cost - That's a $29.000.000 pre tax profit margin taking $50m off $79m . Less my $4.000.000 for trinkets = $25.000.000 divided by 10000 Buells = $2500 pre tax profit per unit sold. In English money, just so's I can better understand it, that's about £1450 pre tax per unit. Maybe these figures are a complete joke to you. Fine, they're only meant to represent where my guestimate came from. What's important is the pre tax profit margin figure I arrived at. Cut it any way you like, but I'd suggest $5000 per unit cost is bang on. Anything more, if I were Erik Buell I'd sell the business. Oh hang about.............................LOL Another thing my condescending confidence might tell me. If Buell aren't making $2500 pre tax profit per unit what margin of profit is a Buell dealer expected to get out of a Buell sale? If a dealer isn't making around $750 per unit sold, what's that - less than 10% of MRRP, I'd suggest it isn't worth selling Buells to make a living, Perhaps if that were the case it may explain why there's so few good Buell dealers according to the many that frequent the BadWeB. Seems to me I'm better off, LOTS better off, selling used Saab's. So, that said, perhaps you'd like to chuck in your three pennies worth, put your neck in the noose, tell us how much you THINK it might cost to produce an XB, and maybe I can have a laugh at you. ALL IN GOOD FUN and thanks for rating this a 5 star thread those of you that have. I hope those 5 stars include my contributions Rocket | ||
| Crusty |
What does a bus driver from Florida know about the build cost of an XB anyway? What makes you think I couldn't build an XB for $5000? I'm not an economist, but I think that Buell just did a tiny portion better than they were doing a couple of weeks ago. I just bought a new Ulysses.  As far as value, I think it compares pretty favorably to a Moto Guzzi Breva 1100 (the Other pushrod V-twin that's available). MSRP is $1000 less while offering more features. If Buell can build an XB for such short money, then Piaggio must really be making a killing. | ||
| Bomber |
Rocket -- glad to be of service, as always -- and, yessireebob, you and I DO know how that fella knew about proper gear selection and the like ;-} if memory serves, your right about the inital adoptors of tech like hydro-lifters and the like -- I doubt if Deuesie invented em (they really didn't do a great deal of base-level engineering), but they sure knew a good idea when they saw it, and put it into use (which, to my wee mind is better than inventing and putting on the shelf, any day) also, I believe that the first commerically available electric starting mechanism on a vehicle was released by Indian, outa Springfield Mass -- just an interesting tidbit | ||
| Rocketman |
This has been a good and interesting thread and I don't believe we've beat it anywhere near to death. Do we have any advance on five grand? Where's the Florida bus driver with his condescending reply? Rocket | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rocket, You can have a laugh at me, but it will be a laugh of ignorance. Your figuring of numbers is absurd. If a company sells 79 million then therefore they are making 29 million? Boy, you sure must make a lot of money on the stock market with that level of sagacity... | ||
| Daves |
That would make a heck of a ROI | ||
| Glitch |
Glitch, would I lie? One does not lie, if one says nothing.  | ||
| Brucelee |
What is the point of trying to figure the BMC financial condition anyway? | ||
| Mikej |
Speculation on the strength of the brand's future longevity, hope for future products and upgrades, hope for even newer innovations, financial proof that they'll still survive for another year. I don't look at a company's financials when I'm looking to buy their product, unless they're about to go bust. I simply look at their current offerings and relative after-purchase support of the product, then make my decision. But that's just me, and I'm not currently in the market for a new Buell. I'll have to wait until June to decide if that changes. But Buell's divisional financial condition will still have little to do with any decision. | ||
| Bomber |
more entertaining than a political diatribe that goes nowhere and never ends might be one answer ;-} actually, the fiscal condition of the company has a great deal to do with their existance, and their ability to bring cool new stuff to us and, for some, it's been a stimulating intellectual exercise | ||
| Midknyte |
Speculation on the strength of the brand's future longevity, hope for future products and upgrades, hope for even newer innovations, financial proof that they'll still survive for another year. They've got 8 models [ok, variations] on their plate. When before has that ever happened? XB12X - Ulysses XB9R - Firebolt XB12R - Firebolt XB9S - Lightning XB12S - Lightning XB12Scg - Lightning XB12Ss - Lightning Blast The cup is more than half full... | ||
| Brucelee |
Actually, no one here has any real data to ascertain this answer, save the CFO types within the HD company. Trust me, the cost allocations alone would hurt your brain. I would bet that the IRR of the BMC has cleared the hurdle rate or there would have been no new models for 2006, no new advertising campaign etc. Personally, I fear not for the BMC. Now, if they could just get those pesky dealers in line............ | ||
| Bomber |
Bruce -- you're absolutely correct, of course -- but since when has that had the slightest affect on a spirited debate here? insert appropriate emoticon here | ||
| Mikej |
"The cup is more than half full..." (thought I'd insert that first) To me there are two glasses on the table, one is full, one is empty. For those who like or own or whom the XB line works for, they drink from the full glass. For those whom the XB line doesn't work, the glass is empty. My glass is empty since the XB lines doesn't work for me for various reasons. Nice bikes, just not for me. Nothing wrong with them, just not for me. It's kind of like fried okra, if you like it and there's a dish full on the table then eat and be merry. But if you don't like it then the choice is to eat some anyway just to be eating anything, or to go hungry. I'm still eating yesterday's leftovers (a couple of 'tuber models), so I'm not going hungry. But if my dish runs empty (sell or trade bikes) I'll probably be eating at a different table. Nothing wrong with fried okra, I've test eaten some, and while it will work for an occasional meal, it's not something that I want to eat everyday for a variety of reasons. So, let's see, at one point in time there was an M2, S3, S3T, X1, and Blast. Five models or variations versus the eight in the list above. If I add the M2L then it's 6 to 8. If I figure the lowering kit works on the S3 models then it's 8 to 8. Throw in the Blast low seat and it becomes 9 to 9. Throw in the X1 Millenium edition and it becomes 10 to 9. In any case I'm starting to get hungry so I think I'll walk downstairs and see what's available in the carousel of death in the vending room. If I don't return to this thread today you'll know I found fried okra there. Have a nice day.  | ||
| Daves |
Well your counting is not really fair. I could make up some other models of the current line up and have done so. We could lower a R(already done) and have another model The low seat is still out there for the Blast,so there's another The low seat for the Uly,yep let's count that as a model. Not to mention all the R/S or S/R bikes out there There could be more but I don't have time. Fact is there are more models available today and that appeal to a wider group of potential buyers even if you are not one of them. I really don't understand why you don't like the new XB12Ss? It, in my opinion was built for you and others that have the Tube frame models. You should try one if you haven't,sure reminds me of a M2/X1 but more the M2 except it handles better,has more power,better suspension that won't leak,a better engine that won't leak,looks better(IMHO). Progress is a good thing! Embrace it. | ||
| Bomber |
Luddites of the World Untie! the numbers game, as Mike and Daves both know, has little impact == fact is that the XB series is appealing to a much larger cross-section of the riding public, which is great! looks of the scoots is a very subejective thing, and, while the XBs are good lookin, I still think the S1 was the best looking Buell ever -- there's no doubt the XB series are better bikes from every numbers based measurement (performance, quality, sales) -- if, however, they don't "speak" to you, the numbers are irrelevant (I refer to my alter ego's (P.Egan) "garage factor" in two more semesters, I'll be seriously in the market, and may just have to schedule a day to ride up to Appleton and ride all of em ;-} poor me -- research is such a drag, ain't it? | ||
| Court |
Chicken Little: The sky is not falling. Court | ||
| Daves |
Bomber, you know you are welcome to come ride every Buell I have in the place anytime( I wouldn't suggest today though) I won't argue the S1,those are really cool bikes! I will own one someday. I want a black 98 S1W with PMs | ||
| Mikej |
"I really don't understand why you don't like the new XB12Ss?" Well, if you really want to know, here goes: (ps, there was no fried okra in the carousel of death, I settled on some cinammon streusel cake thing instead which looked much better than the double chili dogs that have been lounging in there since Tuesday.) 1. Suspension/geometry: works well when set up right, but prone to being upset when changing loads on the bike. I like a little more forgiving suspension and geometry on a bike. Personal and debatable. 2. Frame/engine access: I like being able to get to the spark plugs easily. Not as easy on an XB on the side of the road in the dark on a cold windy night. Just a personal thing, and again debatable. 3. Break-away steeringhead: just makes me uncomfortable with the few I've seen pics of that have broken away. Arguable and debatable but still a personal thing. I don't fully trust snap-load failures and find them very difficult to design for, and when I see forks that have broken away at the steering head but the forks still appear to be straight I have this underlaying feeling that perhaps it was a snapload failure that might or might not have failed prematurely. I'm not a structural engineer, but have worked with a few PhD level ones in the past in various jobs, and know just enough to be dangerous or stupid about the subject. Salt water taffy is hard to engineer failure modes for, pulls for miles but snaps with ease in an instant as one engineer put it. Again, just a personal thing. 4. Passenger seating: very personal, and if my next bike is for two-up riding my opinion is totally secondary in the matter. Solo-bike, I'll get what I want. Two-up bike and I'll get what the passenger is comfortable on. None of the XB's have passed this test, so none are suitable for two-up riding in my situation. 5. Aesthetics: personal and not often debatable beyond agreeing to disagree. They look nice, but not for me to own. 6. Pricing/trade-in value: Even if I did get past 1-4 the upgrades don't offset the price difference to make the deal. It's not worth either of my bikes plus $5000-$8000 to get a new bike. $10,495 + delivery/setup - $3500/M2 = $7,000+. I'd be better off taking that $7,000 and buying a used Shovel or early Evo for twoup riding and then making the M2 a solo-playbike. The S2 on trade-in makes the gap even wider. 7. This doesn't even get into whatever is causing a couple of Uly's handling issues, which apparently is currently stumping internal experts. Tank-slappers happen sometimes, but being on the verge of one should never be considered acceptable for a streetbike. If it's repeatable at some specific speed range which is within the parameters of normal legal street riding then it's unacceptable to me for a bike I'd own. I'm waiting to hear what the ultimate answer is on this specific issue. The Uly is basically an XB12Ss with longer legs to my thinking so I'll reserve personal judgement until the issue is resolved. 8. Fuel injection, TPS, other assorted things: I like carbs, I can work on carbs at home or on the side of the road, and if a carb'd bike runs out of gas I don't have to go thru some dance routine once I put gas back into it to have it running right immediately once refueled. I also don't like the issue of being forced to visit the dealership to set something theoretically as simple as a throttle position sensor, you know as well as I do that in some shops during the busy season that can take a week and two trips to the shop to get taken care of. Again, personal and debatable as to how much of an issue it ultimately is. Granted the current offerings appeal to a wider and broader base of potential buyers than perhaps ever before, and maybe I will test ride an XB12Ss this spring or summer, but I just don't forsee one sitting in my garage anytime soon. They're great bikes and all of the above is just my own opinion and everybody else has to make up their own minds. I'm just answering your question as to why I'm not looking to buy an XB bike in the near future. Time for me to go now, got some errands to run this afternoon. Maybe I'll stop in at the Gixxer shop on the way and ask them about 1K frame breakages. | ||
| Bomber |
Daves -- I was countin on just that very thing, sir -- thanks for the invite ;-} today, sadly, I braved the elements and came to work -- happily, I managed to avoid the errent airliners that Chicago will no doubt become famous for, and slogged through the slush to the orifice -- is there anything at all sadder than an urban area 12 hours after a snowfall? yuck I gotta admit, when I first saw the XB series, they looked a bit disjointed and busy to me -- after seeing a couple of customs that went in a more monochromatic direction (ie, Hillbilly-Motors's Hellbender), they are looking for possible to me all the time (you know I can't leave a sled stock) -- lastly, they look so damn nice from the seat while riding ;-} if there's a way for me to put the uly bags on a 12 long . . . . . . . . . . | ||
| Daves |
Thanks Mike, I really did want to know. The XBs aren't for you. I can live with that. A couple things I'd like to point out though. Remember, we are friends Fuel injection, yep I was one the guys that tore the early electronic ign out of my HD and put points in it. Why you ask? Cause I can fix points on the side of the road, I can buy Chevy 6 cyl points at any parts store on earth. Know what I found out? I DID have to fix them on the side of the road a heck of a lot more often than people that just left the electronic ign in place EVER were broke down on the side of the road. Lesson learned. Yep, you can have something that you can fix on the side of the road or you can have stuff that doesn't put you there in the first place. Within a couple years or so you will no longer be able to buy any new bike that is not FI.Count on it. That's fine if you don't want a new bike but 20 years from now and I hope we are both still riding 20 years from now are you going to settle for riding a bike that is at least 20 years old? I think you are putting too much thought into the suspension issue. On a 12Ss it should be about exactly like your M2. Set it up and ride it. No big deal. Most riders on Tube frame models never had their suspension right in the first place(not saying you don't) and would it matter anyway given the pace most of us ride on public roads? On the short XBs YES. You are REALLY being paranoid about the breakaway steering head/neck thing. I have never heard or seen one that broke without being in a severe crash. I have crashed 2 different XB bikes,both at 70+ mph and neither lost the front end. Your fear is totally unfounded IMO Your trade in value. Really didn't have anything to do with the question. Your bike is worth what it's worth,wether you are trading for a new Buell or eating at a different table as you put it. The TPS reset. Probably the biggest BS reason to not buy a FI bike. You have it checked at the 1000 mile service, then you leave it alone for another 9000 MILES! How many mile per year do you ride? For me, splitting my miles up between bikes that tells me that I'd have to visit that Hellhole called a dealership once every 2 YEARS! and pay 37.00 to boot to have them do it. Damn FI bikes! I know how many miles on my bike and can plan ahead so I don't need it done the week before Sturgis. OR I can buy the Technoresearch software and do it myself any ole time I feel like it for 195.00 The Uly handling issues. What there 2 out there with an issue? Out of how many? I have a few thoughts on this but at this time will keep them to myself and see what becomes of the issues. I know people smarter than me are working on it. |
