| Author | Message | ||
     Johnnylunchbox |
My anecdote: I received a nice Woolrich pullover sweater over 10 years ago as a Christmas gift. It is the best sweater I have ever owned. It is so thick and woven so tight you can barely see light through it. Yesterday I bought a new woolrich sweater of the same style. It looked ok and wasn't nearly as thick or tightly woven. I don't know if it will last 10+ years like my older one. I bought it anyway because I have some faith in the brand and it is after all an acceptable sweater. The first sweater, the older exceptionally well made one sports a "Made in the USA" on the label. The new adequate one sports a "Made in China" on the label. No moral to my story really, so please don't attempt to find one. | ||
| Lowflyer |
Is the moral that China sucks?  | ||
| Jon |
The China advantage is overblown in my industry. I am an Architectural Curtainwall Estimator. One of my competitors is an international firm from Italy. They are the world's largest Curtainwall contractor. One of their strategies has been to outsource aluminum extrusions, finishing, and fabrication in China. The engineering is done within their own company. The Chinese factor is meant to give a competitive edge mainly due to INCREDIBLY cheap labor. Over the past few years this company has been out here, they have taken work real cheap...and then had to redo much of it because the Chinese quality was abysmal. I am not overstating this. You might be pleased to know that American Union Glazing contractors have over the past five years stomped a mudhole in their backside. Last month they issued a "we give up in America" letter to their stock holders. All the major players know that China is more talk than substance in my industry. Success has been very spotty for Chinese businesses. Maybe someday, but not today and not this year. | ||
| Swampy |
Who is the childlike charater on MAD TV that says "I hate the Chinese" Not me of course I like everbody! | ||
| Father |
Spike, Sorry to hear about your bad experience with Walmart. The response that you received from them looks like a pre-prepared letter that they just send out to everyone that they receive complaints from regarding the post-turkey day sale. Some low level employee probably scans incoming e-mails and fires off pre-prepared responses like the one you got. Good luck. Regarding all of the discussion on this post regarding Chinese goods I would like to say that the majority of American consumers are likely responsible for the loss of manufacturing jobs to foreign labor markets. Most Americans, not all, but most make purchasing decisions based on price. Americans go to big box stores daily by the millions and load up their shopping carts with cheap crap that they do not need but just had to buy because it was "such a good deal". For most of America it appears that gone is the day of saving up to buy quality made items. It is getting so bad that I have a hard time trying to find quality made goods because most stores are selling low price/low quality merchandise. Unfortunately most Americans want stuff now and they want it cheap. Well, gotta go, I need to turn off my Chinese computer so I can get some water from my refrigerator made in Mexico. Then I will turn of my light bulbs made in Hungary. I have to get up in the morning and put on my clothes that were made in Guatamala. Gotta get to work early so I can call customer service in Pakistan about some malfunctioning office equipment. Gonna go to work in my restored 72 Suburban that has a new GM motor built in Mexico and about a thousand other replacement parts from nearly every corner of the globe. PS - I do not think all imported goods are of low quality. Some are very good. Unfortunately it appears that many companies both foreign and domestic gear their wares toward low price and not high quality. (Message edited by father on November 28, 2005) | ||
| Court |
>>>>The past thirty years have been an economic shell game in America with our decreasing standard of living masked by (first) the two income family and (second) debt. That game is now late in the fourth quarter and the home team is finally going to catch sight of the scoreboard and wonder how in the world they ended up on the short end of such a big blowout. I've always said that if you don't understand economics, you can at least understand that when the price of the AVERAGE home is 10X what the AVERAGE wage can afford, you are headed for trouble. The dial on the gauge is credit card indebtedness. It is also, by virture of 29% APR, part of what fuels sellers to do anything to lure us to the market place. | ||
| Brucelee |
Lets see if these are the lessons so far? All Corporations are evil-They are bad. All individual consumers are evil, they only shop price. All US workers are heros but are vanishing. All Chinese workers are out to steal our job=they must be evil. Nothing is made in the USA anymore-there are no real good jobs left. All products sold in the USA are crap and the consumers don't care. They just shop price. Did I miss anything? PS-As I look around my house, I see some very nicely crafted products. My HP computer has run like a clock My SONY 42" LCD has a gorgeous picture Bose Stereo, awesome Cherry furniture from North Carolina, stunning. Buell, Porsche and Corvette, hey, what can you say? For a self-described cheap bast..., who shops price like crazy, I am doing OK in the quality dept, no? | ||
| Oldog |
>>> I've always said that if you don't understand economics, you can at least understand that when the price of the AVERAGE home is 10X what the AVERAGE wage can afford, you are headed for trouble. <<< This is an accurate statement, homes have almost doubled in price here In Wilmington NC in the past year, the fixeruppers are being snapped up by any one with access to credit, for a quick buck, I have about given up on home ownership here decent apartments are renting for what My house payment was 2 years ago. I am going to get out of debit and stay out if possible I had a former credit provider pull the switcheroo on me to the tune of 36% (fees and soforth) they got paid off, and because they rep a large retailer I do not do business with them unless unavoidable. 8% credit, in terms of simple interest the purchase of say My X1 I will in effect have paid almost 60% on top of the purchase price for using some one elses money. about 16k for the 10k bike Remember the "employee discount sales" the Auto Co's were pushing? They make more money on providing finnancing than on the car itself Wanna feel comfortable about your situation have money saved( NOT your retiement! ) and get out of debit My goal for '06 finish what I started in 05 (Message edited by oldog on November 28, 2005) (Message edited by oldog on November 28, 2005) | ||
| Bomber |
wow -- I missed this entire thread to to slothfulnees over the long weekend -- lucky me ;-} I went into a walmart once -- I couldn't find what I wished to purchse, found it dis-orienting in the extreme, and have not returned -- this has nothing whatsoever to do with where they buy their goods, what they pay thier non-indentured employees or anything else -- i've come to the realization that my time is worth more than I can save at their stores -- I'll not address the union topic, as I believe it should be grouped with politics and religion as far as devisive conversational gambits go (grin) I DO gtry to buy locally-produced goods when possible -- next teir is locally-sold goods -- then, when those fail, as they do so often, I'll go to the folks that'll get me what I want at a price I feel is acceptable. If that included Wal-Mart, I'd go there -- it doesn't, so I don't. As an example, when I needed parts for my M2, I first tried my local dealership -- they didn't have the part, didn't order it for several weeks, finally got it in, forgot to tell me, and then seemed surprised when I showed up and asked for it -- now, when I need something other than oil and filters, I call or email a gent I know, he gets the stuff to my door in a day or three, and thanks me for the business -- competition works ;-} I, too, have lost jobs because the companies' moved off shore (just like our machinist friend who posted above) -- it wasn't fair, but it WAS biusiness -- it was painful, anger-producing and stressful -- I found another gig, and have continued to attempt to realign my skills with what is needed locally, so I won't have to move to India, China, or Sunnyvale . . . ainb't easy, but I think you're whistling in the wind if you plan your livelyhood around the idea that what will be needed in ten years is what's needed now Buy USA effots have repeatedly failed, as Court sez, due to our society's failure to walk it like they talk it -- that ain't gonna change anytime soon, I'm thinkin, so long as most folks can't see a difference between a 2 dollar burger and a 10 dollar burger, or are less willing to buy a 10 dollar burger Court -- since no one else took up the General Motors gauntlet, I will (you knew I would) -- yessir, GM will exist in five years -- it won't look alot like it did a year ago, but it will exist -- they may have to stop producing products that loose money, but they'll be around | ||
| Lowflyer |
Bomber, Well said. Lee | ||
| Jlnance |
Buy USA effots have repeatedly failed, as Court sez, due to our society's failure to walk it like they talk it It's not only that. It seems that US companies are all to willing to take advantage of Buy USA sentiment to avoid improving their products. So if you try it, you end up feeling like you are getting screwed. | ||
| Brucelee |
Buy American plans fail because they are fundamentally flawed. No country excels at everything and it is foolish to try to do so. Comparative advantage is not a quaint notion made up by Economists; it is a real distinction in the way the world REALLY WORKS. Do you really want Buell to source all of its products from the USA? If that were possible, the bike would cost much more and/or be inferior to the bike that your ride today. Please get with the program. It is not possible for the US to produce everything it needs nor is it even desireable. | ||
| Brucelee |
GM-- Don't get me started. They are perhaps the best illustration of why buy USA is a flawed strategy from the get UNLESS the US product earns its stripes in the marketplace. Who in their right mind is going to buy an inferior product so that they MIGHT save some union job in Detroit, where the union guy is making way more money than the guy trying to save his job? Note the emphasis here on product. I love Corvettes, which are a GM product and which sell without much discounting. THAT car is made in Kentucky by union workers and it all comes out just fine, so it CAN be done. GM needs more of those kinds of cars or they are toast. Legacy costs aside, GM has not had a cost problem for 30 yrs, they have had a product/quality problem. Oh, yes and totally incompetent CEOs. Waggoner is perhaps as bad as they make them. I give him about 30 days left in the job. | ||
| Cochise |
Spike, did you get the info you wanted? | ||
| Court |
>>>No country excels at everything and it is foolish to try to do so. As I sit here drinking coffee from beans grown in Indiana. . . . Most, well many, items hailing "Made in USA" are not. I get in to this when union workers demand "union made - made in America" t-shirts. Guess what boys and girls, there are more made in America Ferrari's. When Hanes closed the last factory (Discovery channel did a good documentary) that was it. Where (and I don't know, but confess my curiousity is picqued) do Honda, Triumph, MV, Kawamoto and others get their wheels. Motorcycling is right up there with argiculture when it comes to specialization of trade. You want switches and control bub, you are going to Japan or Italy. I wonder if wheels are along the same lines. | ||
| Cochise |
Just to add fuel to the fire. We were told in some class in school where there was possibly a Country or city or somewhere in China or somewhere there was a place named USA pronounced (oosa) | ||
| Lowflyer |
"there was a place named USA pronounced (oosa)" I am not sure what your point is, it is the country of origin that is required to be on the tag/label; not the city. There is no country named "Usa." | ||
| Cochise |
Just somerthing I was told when I was school, don't shoot the messenger.  | ||
| Tramp |
NO, there is/was such a mini-city in China. The point is that they're not lying when they say made in USA. Obviously, it's still not correct labelling, but it did, in fact, exist. for that reason. Maybe the local paddy-farmers missed the 'regulations for export tagging' memo. I know for a fact that they weren't using The Cover Sheets on their TPS Reports. | ||
| Cochise |
Hey Tramp's back!! | ||
| Dbird29 |
Dom Portwood: Hello, Peter. What's happening? We need to talk about your TPS reports. Peter Gibbons: Yeah. The coversheet. I know, I know. Uh, Bill talked to me about it. Dom Portwood: Yeah. Uh, did you get that memo? Peter Gibbons: Yeah. I got the memo. And I understand the policy. The problem is, I just forgot this one time. And I've already taken care of it so it's not even a problem anymore. Dom Portwood: Yeah. It's just that we're putting new coversheets on all the TPS reports *before* they go out now. So if you could just remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right! | ||
| Crusty |
I guess that I'm an old fart, but I remember hearing about Usa, Japan back in the early '60s; and how cheap Japanese junk was being foisted on unsuspecting Americans by virtue of the Made in Usa label. The more things change, the more they remain the same. | ||
| Brucelee |
Here is an inquiry-- I am at the local Sports Authority looking for a new cross trainer (the old ones only lasted about 6 yrs). All the leading brands are there and I am focusing on shoes that go for $40-60 retail. I look at the origin of manufacture. ALL the shoes are manufactured in either, China, India, or Indonesia. Then I get to thinking. I am holding a $39.99 MSRP shoe in my had, made by Reebok. Start with that price and take out: Profit, Interest expense, taxes, admin, marketing, sales, promotions, athlete endorsements, raw materials, shipping, plant cost, energy costs, etc etc. Exactly HOW MUCH labor cost can there be in this shoe? I figure about a buck three-eighty! Seriously, given the labor component, you mean to tell me that some of those New Orleans folks who said they could not find work could not be set up to make a Reebok shoe? Even at Wal Mart wages, this shoe seems like it could be made in the US and still turn a profit? Perhaps we have a business idea here? We have some smart folks here, tell me what I am missing. | ||
| Lowflyer |
"NO, there is/was such a mini-city in China. The point is that they're not lying when they say made in USA. Obviously, it's still not correct labelling, but it did, in fact, exist. for that reason." There is no COUNTRY named Usa. I never said there was no city named Usa (although a thorough web search revealed no such city either). Nevertheless, a city is NOT a country. The requirement is due to an FTC import regulation for COUNTRY of origin labeling. The chinese dude in question would not have gotten the memo and it wouldn't matter because his products would not make it past U.S. Customs. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Blatant Urban Legend Alert (BULA)!!!! http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp | ||
| Brucelee |
As an update to my shoe question, I took mine back today and swapped them for a pair of New Balance shoes. The Box is stamped, made in Indonesia. However, inside is a tag which says, "manufactured in the USA." Turns out NB has 5 factories in the USA and actually creates the shoes in those factories. However, since much of the raw material is sourced from other countries (rubber etc.), the FTC makes them put that "made in Indonesia on the box. Fascinating! Had I known the shoe was made in the USA, I might have given it some preference. As it turns out, I bought it because I thought it was clearly the best value in the store. Go figure! | ||
| Spike |
Man, that's pretty cool. My last two pairs of shoes were New Balance, I never realized they were made here. | ||
| Brucelee |
Ditto. I have had New Balance shoes on and off over the years for say, the last 20 yrs. Always an excellent shoe. Here is an excerpt from their web site. "In a global economy where quality components come from all over the world, New Balance continues to manufacture a percentage of its shoes in the USA. New Balance has five factories in New England—three in Maine and two in Massachusetts. With a high-quality labor force, unique modular teams that are continually challenged to offer creative alternatives to foreign competition, and the confidence to be different, New Balance is able to survive and thrive, and take a leadership position in an industry that has sent most of its production overseas." The site address is: www.newbalance.com Good stuff | ||
| Cerbero |
Sorry to be such a pedant, but there IS a town in Japan named Usa. It's about 50 miles west of Fukuoka, on the island of Kyuushuu... Now, whether or not they made products labeled "Made in Usa" is another matter... As for the Wal-Mart debate... I'm a package designer, and they're one of our major clients... we do well over a thousand packages for them every year. Despite this, you will never find me shopping at a Wal-Mart, even if there was one right across the street! (and thank g-d there isn't!) As others have suggested; I prefer supporting small, local businesses... Even if it means paying more for the same item. | ||
| Johnnylunchbox |
Cerbero - Even if there is a town named Usa in japan. U.S. Customs country of origin marking requirements are just that - country of origin...not county of origin. Something marked "made in Usa" coming from overseas would never make it past the port gates. |
