| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
For those who may have missed it the first time... The subject email which initiated this thread is a hoax. Hoax/bogus... http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/memorial.asp So all us God-loving folks are getting all indignant over a hoax.  I don't want my personal beliefs shoved down or forced upon anyone! But I do hold with the principle of democracy... of government "of the people, by the people, and for the people." Thus I am not at all inclined to avoid at all costs offending the mere sensibilities of non-believers. Espeically not when I believe that the very existence, the prosperity and the liberty of our nation is at stake! That's where I draw the line at trying to avoid offending a tiny but vocal minority of anti-God Americans. That line for me falls at denying what our fonding fathers and the vast majority of Americans hold as so profoundly vital and sustaining to our well-being. I will speak up and even fight for the liberties of ALL Americans. Our nation's formal recognition of God infringes upon no one's liberties; at worst, it merely offends the feelings of indignant non-believers. Reciting the American pledge of allegiance, even absent the "one nation under God" part offends some Americans. Tough! The pledge will remain a government endorsed tradition. If that bothers some folk enough, they darn well should avoid living in America. The portrait of Lincoln on our five dollar bill offends some Americans. Tough! If it bothers some folk enough, then they darn well should avoid living in America. It's no different for folks who are bothered by our nation's formal recognition of our God and creator. They don't have to agree, but if it bothers them to much, they darn well should avoid living in America. Admittedly, it is a slippery slope on both sides. On one, you have potential rampant amorality resulting from a complete lack of consequences for ones behavior, man as his own god, materialism rules the day. Where else but from our creator do we justify and hold up as sacrosanct the concepts of liberty and justice for all? Therein lies the glaring truth of the statement that America without God is doomed. On the other side you have the prospect of men presuming to speak for God in ruling over men, using God as an excuse/justification to impose their own will, agenda, and judgment upon others. I don't want America to fall down either of those slopes. I'm all for freedom and democracy. I agree with America's founders that those are among the inalienable rights granted to us by none other than our creator. One one side you'd have either potential chaos in an anything-goes, if it feels good do it, no moral boundaries mad-Maxish materialistic hell on Earth, or a world-wide police state run by people like Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot, etc... On the other you'd have al qaeda and the Taliban and their religious police. So what I'm saying is that whether you believe in a God or not, if you value freedom and democracy, it is absolutely in your best interests to support and not oppose the formal recognition of God by the most powerful nation on the planet. Has it not been the godless men and their godless governments on this Earth that have wrought the worst evils upon humankind? And please don't try to tell me that Hitler was a Christian. That dog don't hunt. Hitler was evil. He was no Christian. It sure has become fashionable and even conventional for folks to decry religion as the root of the world's ills. That unfortunate view is in truth exactly opposite of reality. Godless man and man pretending to do the will of God have always been the root of our world's evils. What would Jesus do? My take is that he advises that we be productive, love our fellow man, and enjoy the wonderful bounties of this life on Earth.  Dang! What a preachy sucker I am. I think I'll go for a ride. (Message edited by Blake on November 30, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
I don't remember anyone actually advocating that they would "want to" remove god from our society. Only that some don't have any specific problems with the fact that it's happening. I happen to be a Christian, but I also understand that the "GOD" mentioned in our texts is BOTH the God of Christianity AND NOT the God of Christianity. It's just "GOD". It's not "your" god, and it's not "my" god. It's just "GOD". Whoever that is to YOU. It's the people who look at the situation and see that "God" as ONLY the Christian God who are narrow minded (in my opinion). "God" in the writings, musings and speeches of our forefathers is, IMHO, the gods of Christianity, Pagans, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Taoists and EVERYONE else. EVERYONE. Hence the reason for separation of Church and state. There are two types of people , those that believe in a form of God and those that don't. In my experience the ones that don't believe in God see themselves as their "higher power". In that case, "God" on our dollar bill refers to THEM. I am against removing "under God" from our pledge of alegiance (I hdo, however have issues with pledges of alegience to ANYTHING) but those that are FOR the removal need to realize that it's an inclusive term... Not an exclusive one. The problem is the "victim" mentallity in our country today. They shouldn't feel like "victims" because they heard the word God. "Most practicing Christians understand quite well that you can't force feed any one, that its a personal decision, " I believe that is an inaccurate statement. "Christians are Supposed to live that way too, we are commanded to Love one another and Our enemies too. " I believe THAT is an accurate statement . | ||
| Oldog |
Thank You Blake, A nice rebuttal there. I think I will go for a ride too. (altho I would like an "objector" rebuttal) M1 please elaborate on the inaccurate statement.. On another note I think that it is odd, in the former Soviet Union that the russian orthodox christian church has had a massive resurgence looks like the godless socialist state did not work. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Grumpy, You are not allowed to post anonymously. Even if it from the DEAD. | ||
| M1combat |
Well... Maybe not completely inaccurate as such because I have no right to decide what's in the mind of another man, but in my experience most practicing Christians do indeed try to force feed others. I know they have the best intentions but to people who have ALREADY explored the Christian faith and have turned away from it for one reason or another it feels very much like being force fed. | ||
| Gearheart |
Just to add my two cents, with that and about a buck forty-eight more you can get a cup of coffee, about the pledge thing is that in 1954 the words under god were added to the pledge. | ||
| M1combat |
Understood . And that's the nice thing about the US. We can mold our country to suit the needs of the generation . | ||
| Oldog |
Thanks M1, I wanted to hear what your thoughts were on that, as one who needed a little coaxing to "return home" I understand Why you have said that, I try to toe that line, may be a little to close some times, Would you agree that the best wittnesses are the ones that live in the proscribed manner, If you felt I was being pushy sorry my friend, Right or Wrong PC is a poor subistute for good manners and tact. Its also mocks Respect and genuine care for others. I hope that I have displayed both in the above postings. Oldog. | ||
| Oldog |
Interesting bit of trivia there Gearheart Has In God we Trust allways been on U.S. Currency? | ||
| Grndskpr |
I read this whole thread an all i got out of it was Mr. Grumpy is a gay penguin go figure R | ||
| M1combat |
Hey no harm done what so ever Old Dog . I think I understood where you were coming from. I've known a lot of Pagans in my life. They truly are excellent people IMO and most live a more Christian life than most Christians from what I can see. As a matter of fact... Out of the nine people throughout my life that I would call "friend", five are Pagan. Keep in mind that the term "pagan" is a catch all term for many similar forms of an alternate religion, just like the term Christian as it were . I think that many religions are far more common than many think but they tend to keep a low profile. Why? Because of their very correct view of many Christians. In my opinion (and keep in mind that I am a Christian) Christians seem somewhat narrow minded. Faith is certainly a good thing but it leads to blind faith, which is NOT a good thing. Blind faith was the tool of the Catholic church in and around the dark ages. | ||
| Oldog |
True and interesting take, Thx | ||
| Bomber |
interesting thread -- and, though it's gotten close to, if not over, the line our Head Regulator has requested about discussing religion, the conversation thus far has been intelligent, reasoned, and gentlemanly -- makes me wonder where I am (grin) as one who left the organized Christian Religions some time ago (I gave up dogma for lent), I, too, sometimes feel force-fed by some of my Christian brothers and sisters -- that said, the addition of God to the pledge in '54 bothers me not at all, as it is so broad, vague, and interprettable, it can mean whatever the reader/listener might wish it to -- these threads are a useful reminder that many folks are trying to take the country back to a past that never existed in the first place (btw, ya know the hue and cry over leaving the 10 Commandments up at a number of court houses across the land? ya know where they came from in the first place? they were promotional items for the epophoneous moive starring the present spokesperson for the NRA -- I just love irony, don't you?) so, what urban myth can be jackhammer-stomp next? big grin smiley | ||
| Blake |
I gave up regulating heads for lent. | ||
| Blake |
Epiphanic? | ||
| Oldog |
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat you mean Moses joined the NRA?  Bomber, I understand what you are saying sorry some one tryed to give you the dogma enema,  the whiners who go around complaining about 10C on gov buildings don't complain about things like strip bars, they are demeaning to women I have yet to demand that the "gentle mans" club down the road be closed, I am how ever comforted by things like the 10c that remind me that The creator loved us enough to set some ground rules for us to operate on. | ||
| Bomber |
Dawg -- ya hit the nail on the head -- to quote the bard, one man's ceiling is another man's floor -- the marvelous thing about our joint experiment here is that, in the main, it has allowed for that to continue, and each can have their own beliefs without infringing on others -- it works so well so much of the time, the whiners (and I agree with your choice of terminology, btw) really stick out -- agreed 100% on the goodness of the groundrules, btw -- they are remarkably similar round the world, without regard to local faiths -- dogma enima! I LOVE that! I'm liable to use it in the future . . . I'll try to remember to give you credit (as a data point, it tweren't the beliefs of the church I left, but, rather, the politics and petty humanity that resulted in shepards not tending their flocks) hey, far as I'm concerned, you can have anything ya like on the courst house -- and on the strip club -- I can choose to ignore either (and generally do {grin}) Blake -- good job! ya sent me to the dictionary! I LOVE that! | ||
| Blake |
Merry Christmas! Kinda funny all the folks getting upset over the use of "Happy Holidays" exclusive to "Merry Christmas" by retailers or even the naming of a "Holiday Tree" instead of "Christmas Tree." What do the folks think "holiday" means? LOL. It's root is from the phrase "holy day." True, the term has been co-opted over the centuries to be synonymous with "vacation" in connotation. But it truly means in it's root "holy day." Kinda like the ACLU's anti-religion mob who recently through threat of lawsuit convinced Los Angeles county to eliminate a small cross from their county seal. Never mind that the name of the county means "the angels" in english. LOL. I suppose next they'll be suing to have the name changed. That'll be a tough one, what with San Antonio and the probably thousands of Christian inpired city and county names all over the country. I do believe that as much activism as we see, it exists on both sides. As much as some would like to see their religiously inspired views made public standards, there are others who seek vigorously to eliminate entirely every trace of God and religiousness, even in its best most productive and beneficial forms from our society. For instance, the ACLU demanding that the health care coverage offered to employees by non-prostelyzing Catholic missions must include coverage supportive of abortion, which is of course a horrible affront against the dearest core beliefs of the Catholic church. It's the zealots like the anti-religion mob in the ACLU who push that kind of miserable agenda that stir up all the activist Christians, and in my view they are right to be so stirred. But none of the stirring is productive, as it spreads ill-will and tends to further divide our country. Who is seeking to cram their dogma down who's throat? If we only see one side of the issue, we are most likely part of the problem rather than the solution. | ||
| Blake |
"(as a data point, it tweren't the beliefs of the church I left, but, rather, the politics and petty humanity that resulted in shepards not tending their flocks)" My wonderful father notwithstanding (he's one of the best most honest-to-God ministers I know, not a preacher, an honest-to-God minister, tending to what needs tending, whether it be lifer fellons, the community food bank, the youth group recycling drive, an electric wheel-chair for a terminal cancer patient, whatever...), it seems you and I have very similar views on organized religion. My Dad's only real problem is that he's a darn "liberal." LOL! | ||
| Bomber |
Blake -- yesireebob! much silliness on both sides of the fence here -- of course, if one has abortion coverage, one may elect not to use it, but that's sorta kinda besides the point -- the fact is that no one should try to stuff their belief down anyone's throat . . . I'm thinkin that discussing the origin of a religious observace that happens close to the winter solstice may not work out quite the way you imagined, so I'll let that one be -- consider it an early Christmas present from me to you! big ol' non-digital grin (Message edited by bomber on November 30, 2005) | ||
| Djkaplan |
Don't want to get into the whole God and religion thing, but I just recently visited the WWII memorial in D.C. and wanted to say how moving it was. It is truly a great monument to the Greatest Generation. Thank you. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Grumpy the Gay Penguin, Naw - I thought he was saying he was Jesus himself. Now if he is gonna cross Labrador at the end of September he would have a better chance of doing it as a gay penguin as its even too cold up there for Jesus. | ||
| Oldog |
This has been an interesting exchange started by a hoax - Merry Christmas to all ... | ||
| M1combat |
It might be finished by a hoax too . | ||
| M1combat |
"I'm thinkin that discussing the origin of a religious observace that happens close to the winter solstice may not work out quite the way you imagined, so I'll let that one be -- consider it an early Christmas present from me to you! " Or any of the other "Christian" holy days . | ||
| Newfie_buell |
All I can say is, Jehova bwhahahahahahaha | ||
| Blake |
Bomber, No need to educate me on the pagan origins of dates chosen for Christian holy day celebrations. Interesting from an historical perspective for sure. But not much relevent to the historical events that are being celebrated on those co-opted festivuses. M1, I got some serious preachin' for you brother. Stay tuned. | ||
| Bomber |
Blake -- and that's what makes a horse race, brother M1 -- NOW you've done it! ;-} | ||
| Jackbequick |
The basis of this nation's founding was freedom of religion. I believe our personal freedoms include both freedom of and freedom from religion. The words "under God" were added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. I consider that was a gratuitous change that added nothing necessary to spirit or intent of the pledge. When I think back over the misery and grief that mankind has wrought and continues to wreak on itself in the name of God, I question the wisdom of anyone wanting to align them selves with any one the vast majority of all known organized religions. My advice is to be as kind and decent a human being as you can to yourself and all others. Find your deity in any form or activity that strengthens you and brings you joy without taking anything from others. Happy Holidays and Best Wishes to All! Jack | ||
| Blake |
The basis of this nation's founding was freedom of religion. Suggest you read the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America Not sure there's anything in it about freedom of religion. In fact, that specific right wasn't even included in the Bill of rights. When I think back over the misery and grief that mankind has wrought and continues to wreak on itself in the name of God... Not sure Hitler, Stalin, Hirohito, Pol-Pot, or Saddam Hussein wrought any of their evils in the name of God. Same old conventional wisdom myth. Unfortunate so many folks believe it. |
