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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:08 pm: | 
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Sar,
What do I say? On the question of evolution, I say that "I don't know." Is it a cop-out? No way. Concerning spiritual beliefs and faith in God, it just doesn't matter. It makes for very interesting discussion, but it really has no bearing on our spiritual well-being. My view is that folks who rely on scientific proof to convince them of the reality of God are missing the point. They cannot see the forest for the trees. It's kinda like demanding scientific proof that our parents love us. Who cares about finding such "proof"? What's important is that we know they do love us. If we don't know it already, no amount of proof is likely to convince us.
I say also that I used to think much as you do, that evolution is undeniable cold hard scientific fact. Not so sure anymore. My mind has been opened to all possibilities. Micro-evolution, what Darwin observed and what we all observe, I have no trouble seeing and accepting as scientific fact.
It's the macro-evolution, the new organs and entirely new species coming into existence through myriad beneficial mutations and all arrising from the most basic forms of life and all coded so unbelievably efficiently and robustly through DNA. Not sure we've observed any significant beneficial mutations that support that kind of scenario. How the heck does a beetle that jets out boiling hot chemicals evolve? Do you find the evolutionist's hypothetical explanation plausible? Seems the stuff of fantasy to me, but I really don't know. Of note in that article is the following with which I heartily agree...
quote:Does evolution disqualify an intelligent designer? A lot of people reject the idea of evolution because they think it takes away any role for God to play in the creation of life. Such is the case, however, only for people who require God's role to fit certain narrow preconceptions of what "intelligent design" must mean. Millions of people around the world have no trouble believing in God and accepting evolution at the same time. Evolution only contradicts a man-made God that operates under man-made constraints.
I see a lot of evolutionists engaging in debate with proponents of intelligent design, and almost always (actually in every single case that I have seen) the evolutionist's presentation falls to ad-hominim attack against and glib ridicule of his/her opponent(s) rather than thoughtful scientific debate. That tends to make me wonder who the most religious of the two opposing schools of thought really is.
For me the issue is not about evolution, it is about origins, the origin of life and of the matter comprising the universe.
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. So how did all this matter get here? How do you create something from nothing? Seems to me you need some serious creative expertise to do that?
There is actually a valid scientifically based answer to the above question.
I figure it wouldn't be too tough for a being who transcends time and space. Take nothing and divide it into two opposing types of material. You've heard of anti-protons? When coming in contact with a proton, the two anhialate each other. Only energy remains in their place.
I dunno. Is it plausible? Sounds kinda Star Trekish don't it, matter and anti-matter.
Sure is fun to talk about though.  At least until the egos heat up and the ad hominem attacks start to fly. Then it sucks. Hope we can continue to avoid that here. I'm betting we can, on account of I have the ability to remove any such posts. 
(Message edited by Blake on December 01, 2005) |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
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Gotta like the Tramp-man.
That ain't too absolute is it? |
Rocker_atc
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
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TRAMP,do'nt forget the DRUID's
ROCKER |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:30 pm: |
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I think that evolution and the divine creation are both correct,
In the time that man has had the ability to document and learn of his environs They have changed,
God made the world as a dynamic system, evolution is evidence of that fact, Also there are mechanisims in the system that allow changes to be made, like any complex system, small changes seem to take time to manifest them selves, large ones (upsets) are more likely to be catastrophic in nature. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:38 pm: |
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god may even have evolved from man to become the supreme being, mastering time itself, and thefore
creating it in order to go on and create man....himself.
i could never get too angry with regard to religious discussions. there is no "cop out" in a religious discussion. how can there be, if we are to belive either a. someone far greater than us made all this
or b. we are each part of an evolutionary chain, and as such, are limited by our own position in this chain |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
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(Thanks, Blake! nice of you to say) |
Rocker_atc
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:43 pm: |
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Personally I think we came here from MARS on ships through space when MARS became a dead planet and our great ancesters could no longer survive there.We landed on a planet inhabited by DINO's that we slowly ruled out and subsequintly took over this planet hundreds of thousands of years ago and left to our own devices>>
ROCKER
Now we love tree's |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 12:34 am: |
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Yeah, maybe it was the pointy stick thing followed by the board with a nail in it that allowed us to conquer and dominate the Earth. Mwuahahaha!  |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 01:28 am: |
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A little late back to the thread, but I have to clarify something from page one. I was ranting a bit and was misunderstood.
I would never say move to someone because of their belief or religion. That would be wrong of me and unchristian. I myself have prayed in many different churches and have close friends who are of different belief.
I simply meant that toward those who are so bothered by the fact that our founders had a different religion than theirs that they must erase it from the face of the nation. It's erasing part of our national fabric and is tragic.
Charlieboy |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 01:59 am: |
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As far as Creation vs. Evolution. I'm for both. I'm a believer, but I don't think we've always looked the way we do now. I saw an interesting study of dental records over the last few hundred years that shows our (collectively) jaws/teeth have shrunk, presumably because of the more malleable foods we eat. Evolution? Who knows, but change is undeniable...
As far as creation, I need no proof. My own definition of faith is believing in that which you cannot see/prove. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 09:15 am: |
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I've never understood some folk's insistance that a strong belief in Christianity would rule out an acceptance of evolution -- but, hey, I've been accused of being way to open minded by many --
I find it interesting in the extreme that the "Christmas Tree" and other trappings that Tramp listed have been so vigorously attacked and defended -- none of these things are even sanctioned by any Christian church of which I'm aware -- they are, clearly, holdovers from an earlier time and secondary, non-church-related symbols of religious fests, many of which now long out of favor (I'm assuming that few on the board went to All Hollow's Mass) --
While Blake finds the fact that the timing of so many Christian fests (used in the religious and respectful manner) coincided so neatly with previous, pre-Christian celebrations, one might submit that it is more than just a coincidence, and that some higher organizational power made it thus
further weight for this position might be found in the gross similarities between many of the major, modern (used in the historic sense) religions -- while it MIGHT be coincidental, it could also be an artifact of an organizational force.
whether the founding fathers were faithfully, zealously religious or not (and scholarship reveals that there is a good argument against that stance), said Dads DID craft a framework in which a variety of views could be accomodated -- the very existance of the statements refering to a creator in the same document stating the salves would count as what, 3/5 of a person for the purposes of governmental representation points to the fact that they (the First Dads) were hedgining their bets with the zeal of a Three-Card Monte dealer . . . . . . . at the end of hte day, their desire for a workable form of government clearly over-rode any other concern |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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The church has always made generous allowances for pagan beliefs- anyone familiar with the new testament knows that christ was born when the apple trees blossomed (judea et al share our hemispheres and seasons, and are closer to us in latitude than many americans realize. Israel shares it's altitude with Savanna, Dallas and Tucson) yet the church celebrates his birth at the end of December, so as to coincide with the Pagan observance of the Winter Solstice. "Haloween" is one of the holiest celebrations of the ancients of Europe, baing a latter-day iteration of Samhain, the beginning of the dark half of the year when thanks was given for a bountiful harvest and new offspring. In Springtime,
"Beltane" celebrated the beginning of the light half of the year, and gave thanks for having survived the long winter, and asked for fertility in both crops, the tribespeople, and the prey animals. This was typically symbolized by the first eggs laid by the nesting waterfowl, decorated to give thanks to fertility gods and, more importantly in europaganic beliefs, goddesses. This tendency toward goddess worship in prechristian europe perpetuated the tendency, in "the" church (RC) toward Madonna worship.
bear in mind that the Celts, and therefore their druidic shamans, enjoyed a territory which extended through the iberian penninsula, italy, all of switzerland, the slavic lands, etc.
in fact, the celts, so equated, in this modern time, with the gaelic lands (ireland and scotland), came from somewhere in modern-day russia, crossing europe and keeping the gaelic lands as their last stronghold when the romans finally turned and fled back to rome in fear of the saxon incursion of britain. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Chainsaw -
"Only Christians think having "In God We Trust" on currency is cool. What's wrong with keeping God off our money? Why not but Allah or Budda on every 10th coin? Sounds fair to me. Would that offend Christians? Why should the First Amendment be interpreted differently because you wear a cross?"
Why do YOU automatically associate the "God" on our Dollar bill with the Christian God? You aren't a victim here. I'm a Christian and I understand that YOU have the ability to make your own decisions. If "God" to you isn't the Christian God, then please, by ALL means, please decide to see the "God" on the dollar bill as whatever you would like to. Why not put Allah, Budha or Zeus on the Dollar? They already are... That's my point.
That's straight up Dogma right there... Please don't blame ME for it .
Vegas ...
First , Long time no see, how's it been and how's the wife doing?
And... Thanks for posting that bit on Paganism but everyone needs to keep in mind that the Wiccan religion is only a "denomination" of the Pagan religion so to speak. It's a pretty common one, but that's what it is. There are plenty of others. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I am intimidated by Bomber's open mind and Tramp's big hairy knowledge.
Make 'em stop.
We're planning to go cut down and bring home a genuine Texas Christmas tree this weekend, and I really wanna avoid feeling compelled to lecture the poor guy running the Danville Farms' tree shaker about the co-opting of pagan festivals, the geographic traits shared by the holy land and America, the celebration of Beltane (is that related to propane?... "Beltane"... describes the wretched smelling gas that escapes shortly following a holiday loosening of the belt? ), the historic propensity of Europeans to make pretty eggs while admiring comely women, and that green beer has its roots in Russia back when the Italians were were kicking everyone's arses.
Whew! My brain is sore.
(Message edited by Blake on December 02, 2005) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
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Blake -- now you know how I feel while reading your equations!
happy to help ;-} |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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?
I never cited wicca, nor would I. wicca's a posthumous interpretation/conjecture of druidism.
not a denomination at all. "wiccans" are a bunch of poseurs who're peeved they weren't the center of attention in church.
druidism was the prevailing practice of the celts, and the foremost of the known european religions. paganism in itself is more of an eliminative descriptor than a focused term.
by such definition, then, extra-judeochristian beliefs are categorized as pagan. and, yes, islam is an offshoot of both judaism AND christianity, so it falls under judeochristian.
Incidentally, the progeny of shem were the israelites and arabs. regradless of faith, the arabic and jewish tribes/peoples are semites. (it's hilarious when journalists refer to muslims as antisemitic. foks have forgotten the definition of semitic.)
anyway, had these tribes not been so mysoginistic, the goddess worship of the ancient europeans might have been more embraced by the vatican's knights. as it was, Christ's own pro-female stance villified him amongst his own home tribe; indeed- christs own departures are as revolutionary, when viewed from our presence, as martin luther's. while Martin Luther was opposed to having the intercessionary stance of a Poe, he also sought to keep his contemporaries' faith intact. He is one the more conflicted figures of our history. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:30 am: |
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Blake said:
"We're planning to go cut down and bring home a genuine Texas Christmas tree this weekend, and I really wanna avoid feeling compelled to lecture the poor guy running the Danville Farms' tree shaker about the co-opting of pagan festivals, the geographic traits shared by the holy land and America, the celebration of Beltane (is that related to propane?... "Beltane"... describes the wretched smelling gas that escapes shortly following a holiday loosening of the belt? ), the historic propensity of Europeans to make pretty eggs while admiring comely women, and that green beer has its roots in Russia back when the Italians were were kicking everyone's arses."
If I were laughing any harder, I wouldn't be able to type....saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy...waitaminnit! |
Vegasbueller
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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M1: She's doing great! She is off most of the meds now, doing lots of long walks on the beach, and giving out a lot of smiles these days. Yes, I have lots of things to be thankful for this holiday season. Thanks Don, I'll tell her you asked about her!
And yes, Wicca is but a small part of what many call "Pagan" religions. I would guess there could be as many or denominations of Pagan as there is in Christianity. I have also done a little reading about Satanists, and some of "sects" of that group actually believe more or less that Satan actually stands in Gods spot and commands them in good deeds. It was enlightening reading as opposed to the stereotypical child killing/sacrificial group that we normally read about in the papers.
Me thinks Tramp is a man who likes to spend some spare time in the library!
Now here is a funny for you Blake. During my short journey into the family tree (Yes tree not a typical family stick that most think people from the south have) I did trace the Cherokee, as well as the Irish and Scots. I am so afraid that some day I will become an alchoholic indian. (just kidding)
Seriously though, my parents were devout Southern Baptists. They never cared to EVER discuss any of the religious aspects of our ancestors. Their church did believe that everyone else was wrong, and that included the Catholic, Methodists, etc, etc. Yet even with that strict adherence to the "bible", I was brought up in a neghborhood where the Klan met on a regular basis and were smiled upon for their presence. I am not in any way "bashing" a Southern Baptist or any religion, just sharing how the particular part I was brought up around tended to make up their own rules of good/bad as needed. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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actually, there's never been a documented case of a satanic cult homicide in the nation.
all such 'satanic ritual killings' were committed by disorganized, usually juvenille offenders, who found it exhilarating to utilize ol' nick's name to sensationalize their escapades.
satan-worshipping cults are largely urban legend.
the klan has less nefarious roots than it's halcyon 'lynching' days might suggest, much as the (speaking of pagans) 'pagans m/c'(the most mad-max villainesque of contemporary american motorcycle clubs) started out as a group of middle-class triumph-enthusiasts donned in white denim jackets who enjoyed weekend runs on their pristine british motorcycles. indeed, sometimes the media IS the message. The eastward migration of the Hells Angels m/c (whose roots lie in an airforce base in san bernardino, ca.) encouraged these 'pagans' to grow violent to protect their 'lands'. .. much like the Romans (who's knights referred to themselves as Angels Of God, bringing Hell's own fire on the pagan tribesmen) and the celts all over again. one wonders little at the pagans m/c/amish connection of the 1990s....
-[the motorcycle world allegory of western civilization and the birth of the holy roman empire, von trampenstein, 2005.] |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
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gott mit uns
great reasoning, always |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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indeed, "if he's with us, who can possibly be aginst us?"
incidentally, ernest hemingway's prized possession, which he wore always, wa shis "gott mit uns" SS souvenir belt buckle.
Few people seem to realize that the original motorcycle club reaon for wearing nazi regalia had naught to do with any admiration ofr naziism, but, rather, in the immediate postwar years, said regalia was worn as a captured lfag, a medal in the most archaic sense, the enemy's own colours taken in battle and worn thereafter by the conqueror.
odd how few people undertsand that connection... Maltese Crosses, SS emblems, etc. few despised nazis more than did the combat vets of the period, from whom the original 'fringe' american motocrcyle clubs sprang. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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Tramp -- ya hit the nail on the head wrt the initial display of enemy totems -- there was a time/place, long agao, far away, in whcih the use of an NVA ruck marked the users a one who had truely seen the elephant --
innit funny how that "fringe" has become a holy relic, and the "greatest generation?
the display of said totems devolved PDQ --
a, perhaps, apochraphal story, but one that has some charm -- when some British Tommies noted the phrase on some german belt buckles, their graffiti soon sported the phrase, "We got mittens, too!" |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 02:19 pm: |
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I hear tell the ARVN boys sold those NVA rucks at sucha premium, they had them manufactured for sale |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 02:30 pm: |
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roflmao! you're likely right -- same with the lil red kerchief thingies . . . . |
Kdan
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 08:39 pm: |
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So as Beullers, should we start wearing Honda and Suzuki badges?
Hey guys, X-mas is coming, celebrate how you see fit, try to remember the peace on earth thing, stay away from the malls and love your family. You don't need to prescribe to any specific religion or belief to "get it". It doesn't cost anything and it doesn't hurt anyone. Now if someone could figure out how to make the "holiday" season feeling, or the "we just had a disaster" feeling last all year, I'll worship you. |
Rocker_atc
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 08:42 pm: |
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Lets not forget the protagonists of GAUL>>>
HI TRAMP
DOWN HERE
IT'S ME JOHN
KILLROY WAS HERE
ROCKER |
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