| Author | Message | ||
     Oddbawl |
I agree with Blake too, (Gawd never thought that would happen  ) Being socially conscious doesn't make a Stalinist, please don't even mention it. Things are indeed improving. No, it won't happen all at once, but people have to make it happen. Wasn't spreading hate, just hopefully awareness of a point of view that is foreign to many. Eboos, I was just funnin you know... can't help it sometimes. "I believe that Wal-Mart is making an honest effort to be fair to both employees and customers, but like anything or one else, they are not perfect." I could not disagree more. Their record is atrocious and speaks for itself. Here's a hypothetical situation to try to illustrate my point: Gimmick A is $12.00. Same type of gimmick B is $10. It turns out that gimmick B is made by a company than may funnel funds to some psycho group like AlQaeda or Sons of Jihad or The Brotherhood of Covering Up Women, whatever. I don't have to ask if you'd buy gimmick b for the lower price or not do I? Everybody has their limit. There was an email circulating around a while ago listing French companies urging people to boycott their products because of the Iraq thing. There are a couple of guys here that know my stand on that whole thing, and I disagree with the email, BUT I can respect that somebody is taking action in something they believe in. If I can get ONE person to go out and look at the issues and decide for themselves based on something other than the bottom dollar, I'm content. I'm sure nobody here wants to see sweatshops or child labour, the difference is is in how far you want to carry it. We all have to be aware that what we do has an impact everywhere, especially as North Americans. Anyway we've been flogging this horse pretty good, prolly a barrel of glue by now. I gotta get something done around this house or I'm gonna get a sweatshop style asswhoopin from the wife. (Message edited by oddbawl on November 25, 2005) | ||
| Oddbawl |
DAMN! 5 posts while I was responding again. | ||
| Oddbawl |
Eboos, this one's fer you: Confucius say: Man who fart in church sit in own pew. | ||
| Brucelee |
"We all have to be aware that what we do has an impact everywhere, especially in North America" Huh? | ||
| Oddbawl |
Sorry, I mean that as North Americans, we tend to have a bigger impact on other countries. Is that less clear? Ah forget it. I'm going to get a FAIR TRADE coffee HAHA! Vive La Revolution!! | ||
| Eboos |
So what multi-billion dollar international corporation do you run? It is always easy to criticize the mistakes that a company makes. It's even easier when you are as visible as Wal-Mart. They are attacked by unions because of one thing: dues. If they were to organize the nations largest private employer, that would result in huge revenues for the unions. Since they haven't had any success organizing (funny how the supposedly victimized workers don't want any part of a union), they are using their resources to bring to light anything that could be damaging to Wal-Mart's reputation. As far as sweat shops, or child labor goes, doesn't the local governments make up their own laws in their countries? Morality is a matter of perspective. What is good for us here in the US doesn't mean that is the way it should be around the world. It is that kind of arrogance that has soiled this countries image world wide. | ||
| Eboos |
"Confucius say: Man who fart in church sit in own pew." That wraps it up for me. | ||
| Oddbawl |
"Since they haven't had any success organizing (funny how the supposedly victimized workers don't want any part of a union)" Untrue. Many attempt were successful only to have the company try to shut down the store or the offending department and illegally dismiss the offending employees. Don't spout off if you don't know. "This year, the company announced it would close a Canadian store that had recently voted to organize, saying the Quebec outlet was not profitable. In 2000, shortly after 11 Wal-Mart meat cutters in Texas voted to be represented by the UFCW, the company announced it would pre-package meat and eliminate meat cutter jobs company-wide." -Washington Post Al 13/05 http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/09/news/international/walmart_canada/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51521-2005Apr13.html "As far as sweat shops, or child labor goes, doesn't the local governments make up their own laws in their countries? Morality is a matter of perspective. What is good for us here in the US doesn't mean that is the way it should be around the world. It is that kind of arrogance that has soiled this countries image world wide." That is by far the most ridiculous thing said in this thread yet. Please. Think about it. How many billions is your government spending right now intervening in other countries in the name of human rights as we speak? I can think of two big ones off the top of my head. Child labour is acceptable? So, if a foreign law was lenient on kiddy porn, that would be ok too? If slavery is legal in a nation, than buying products from slave labour camps is ok? If you think that human rights are a regional and arbitrary thing it's already too late. I'm at a loss... And damn it, I'm going to spell it LABOUR no matter what the spell check says!!! | ||
| Eboos |
So 11 meat cutters joining a union was the sole cause of a company's decision to switch to pre-packaged meat? Unlikely. As far as the child labor goes, maybe I didn't make my point as well as I could have. What I ment was that, in other countries, children's income is used to help support the family. These families may not be able to support themselves otherwise. I am not talking about exploiting anyone. (sorry for not discontinuing after the fart joke) | ||
| Court |
Anybody gonna introduce the "Will GM be here in 5 years?" element? Talk about a once great industry on the ropes. | ||
| Pwnzor |
holy Jesus this is out of hand. When did this become the BadWalmartBikers Board? LOL | ||
| Djkaplan |
There is nothing I buy at the local Super Wal-Mart that is made by slave labor or even made overseas, except maybe the bananas I get there. As far as that cheap Chinese crap they sell; would you rather pay $1.99 for a hammer or $9.99 for the same thing from a local hardware store? Me? I'd rather go to Sears and get a Made In The USA Craftsman hammer. Go ahead and hate it, it's your right as an American to hate anything you want. | ||
| Swampy |
The City Fathers in St Johns,MI. couldn't get Walmart to agree to pay for the road improvements and privacy fencing, so they would not approve a SUPER WALMART upgrade to the existing Walmart. Well, the Walmart just built a Super Walmart only 1/4 mile from the existing Walmart. The question is "What is to become of the OLD Walmart building?" It will sit empty until the school district buys it up and converts it to classrooms, just like what happened to the OLD Big Wheel store building that went out of business, when the K-Mart came to town 15 years ago. Now about the local businesses? I shop Auto Zone for my car parts, because Walmart doesn't carry them, and the NAPA and Carquest doesn't stay open long enough for me to crawl out of the swamp and make my parts chasing trek to town. My firearms and supplies come from the local hardware store where you pay a little more but get a better selection then Walmart, and you can order what you need. As far as the rest of the junk in life I sometimes need, I shop at K-Mart because no one shops there anymore and I can get in and out quickly. I went food shopping this week cause I didn't kill anything, and went to Aldi, the poor quality food they sell there was more expensive than the Kroger store which by the way is the only grocery store in town now that the only other grocery store went out of business because of a greedy landlord that wanted a ten year lease when a Super WALMART was opening up only 1/4 a mile away! Smart Business. Support your local businesses. The Super Walmart now becomes that. | ||
| Buellzebub |
shop with your conscience... if that makes you happy, i shop for the values. (i think thats why i bought my S1) if you don't like the wages wallmart pays, work elsewhere. as far as i can see no one is forcing anyone to work for or shop at wall mart. get used to the global economy with companies buying stuff by the sea can from whomever can provide the best price/value points (harley included). the age of the union and "protected" jobs is allmost over. | ||
| Lastcyclone |
Couple of things to consider. WALMART is now the biggest corportation in the world. Bigger than GM, bigger than Exxon/Mobil, they have a greater economy than many countries do. They have come close to cornering the retail market. They did not get this big by being generous and taking care of the people that make the billions for them. A Super Wallymart has recently been approved in the some what small town I live in. It was the most devisive issue ever to happen here. Neighbor against neighbor, politicians screaming at each other, law suits filed. The uglyness has gone on for a year and a half and it continues today. After everything I have witnessed I'm convinced that no good can come from WALMART. Every holiday MSNBC runs a 90 minute documentary "The Age of Walmart". Great viewing if you are interested in that kind of thing. Gives the whole story. I don't know about everyone else but I'm staying away, something just seems evil about it. <http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/990922/posts> Merry Christmas to all. | ||
| Josh_ |
I remember back when a WalMart first came to our area, and instead of just dreaming about the products at the local 80% markup mom&pop we were finally able to afford things like a microwave. They just expanded that to a SuperW which has ticked off lots of people due to the undesireables (ie the po' folk from farther out in the boonies) that it attracts. | ||
| Eboos |
Nothing good? What about the nearly 400 new jobs that have become available in your small town? What about the tax revenue that your area will now receive? What about the boost in traffic that other local business will receive now that there is a major retail attraction there? Be careful of what you read and see on TV. News is not impartial, end all be all fact. Documentaries are entertainment. Michael Moore's film's were also "documentaries", but were they impartial? To quote your link: "On average, Wal-Mart sales clerks -- "associates" in company parlance -- pulled in $8.23 an hour, or $13,861 a year, in 2001, according to documents filed in a lawsuit pending against the company." The federal minimum wage is just over $5.00 per hour. The state minimum wage in Massachusetts is about $7.00 per hour. It seems as though on the average Wal-mart's associates are making out pretty well. "At the time, the federal poverty line for a family of three was $14,630." For a family of 3, with 2 incomes at that level, that would be $27,722 which is more then acceptable. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I do not shop at Walmart. I have been inside one, and was shocked at the disarray in which the store was kept. I left without making a purchase because it wasn't just the store itself that was an apparent mess. It was a couple of years later that I started to notice all the stories on the news about the company. I couldn't help thinking that Walmart was getting a bad rap. How can someone expect to make a "living wage" stocking shelves or mopping floors? These are the jobs we take when we are in school, need a flexible schedule, and basically just need a few extra bucks. HOW can these people possibly expect to make more than 12-15k per year doing these jobs? These are not skilled positions. Hell, even the store manager's job can hardly be considered a skilled position. Used to be, a retail manager had SO MUCH paperwork to keep after and every detail of the business had to be attended. Now, its all on computer. They walk around and scan items with a gun which feeds into the computer. Inventory for an entire store takes a few hours, once every other month, and now they are even performing dynamic inventories which can be performed while the store is open because the cash registers note everything that leaves the store into the main computer. People are basically chair warmers and greeters in this environment. To them I say, be happy with minimum wage. If you don't like it, go to a community college (cheap, fast) and get an AA or AS degree, obtainable in 18 months or less even when you start from scratch. Then you will have something to show to a REAL employer who can PAY you that living wage you want. The degree, regardless of subject, shows a potential employer that you can COMPLETE something ON YOUR OWN in life. Or you can do what I did, pull yourself up from drug-addicted poverty and homelessness (this was me 15 years ago) and work at TACO BELL for $3.75 per hour long enough to save $3000 and buy a run-down truck at an auction so you can haul junk for a wrecking yard. Then you can LIVE IN THE BACK OF THE TRUCK, while you work and repair your credit and save $10,000 to put down on a bigger, newer truck, which you will also live in for a YEAR, and save $20,000 to throw with the trade-in on a BRAND NEW PETERBILT 379 which you will also live in for another year. Then you get a job with a crappy delivery company and barely make your payments while saving a few bucks to buy a run-down trailer so you can make more than 45% of the load you are hauling. Continue to apply this method and fast-forward to current day when you own 10 trucks, all brand new, with trailers, and you employ people and pay the living wage that they were all looking for. You see, my employees all went to truck-driving school and completed it. They brought a skill to the table and paperwork and a clean driving record to back it all up. So to my 3 most senior drivers, I lease the trucks. To the others, I pay by the hour in town, and by the load if they go out of town. I pay them well enough to afford the same medical insurance that I have. If they land an account, they get the commission on top of their pay. The moral of this story is, I don't feel sorry for Walmart employees. Everyone gets out of life what they create or take from it. Everything is there for the taking. Just ask any Vietnamese or Ukranian (just examples, I am neither although 2 of my drivers are) about it. They will tell you that anyone can succeed. My employees do just that, and not by standing there with their hands out waiting for someone else to take care of them. God bless America and everyone who comes here to make a better life for themselves. To the rest, well you get what you get. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Just to throw my tuppence in, Walmart haven't made it into France yet, But they own ASDA one of the big UK chains. I will shop there when I'm in the UK cos it's the only place I can get Root Beer! I predict they'll get their hands on a French chain within the next 10-15 yrs. As for Aldi I refuse to shop there due to the working practices they enforce on their truck drivers, Like 40 mins to tip a whole semi ON YOUR OWN, & the time starts from when you open the doors before you back on the dock, to when you close them, there's a graph timer linked to the doors. If you take longer they dock your bonus. I was put on contract to them with a firm I worked for, I lasted 1 week, I told the boss to take me off it or I'd quit, if he hadn't already fired me for punching out their traffic manager. He did a run with me to see what it was about & terminated his contract with them the same day. Rant over, phew I feel better already.  | ||
| Ducxl |
Wal-Mart does suck.Capitalism sucks too,as well as free trade.My boss is an idiot for keeping our factory open when he can move it to Mexico and eliminate the benefits package,as well as about 95% of the wages.The U.S.A. can't compete with no wage countries.We're racing to the bottom.When Delphi (one of our major customers)went bankrupt we were completely unaffected as ALL our product goes to Delphi's Mexico operations which weren't affected by the bankruptcy filing...Why? Because Delphi Mexico is a profitable operation...Why? Because the Mexicans work for no wages...And any that complain will be shot dead by those Banditos. | ||
| Brucelee |
Of all the nonsense I have read, this is the best nonsense. "Wal-Mart does suck.Capitalism sucks too,as well as free trade." You are right. History has proven that Communism and Socialism are MUCH better economic systems than Capitalism. The fact that the poster child for Capitalism, the USA has the highest standard of living in the world suggests that we are clearly an aberration. The Soviet Union will rise again. Also, History has surely proven that restrictive trade barriers are MUCH better for overal economic development than free trade. Certainly, it would be a good thing if Toyota could not sell their cars here and we were all driving 1970 Chevy Impalas. "My boss is an idiot for keeping our factory open when he can move it to Mexico and eliminate the benefits package,as well as about 95% of the wages." Your boss may be an idiot for many reasons, including that one. "The U.S.A. can't compete with no wage countries.We're racing to the bottom." Sadly, I can find no economic data to support this race to the bottom. I wonder if it is our GDP growth or 5% unemployment rate? "When Delphi (one of our major customers)went bankrupt we were completely unaffected as ALL our product goes to Delphi's Mexico operations which weren't affected by the bankruptcy filing...Why? Because Delphi Mexico is a profitable operation...Why? Because the Mexicans work for no wages..." I was not aware that I can find Mexicans to work for free! Good deal if you can get it. | ||
| Brucelee |
I wonder how much Wal Mart should pay the check out clerk (who is slowly but surely being replaced by the self checkout computer)? This "skilled employee" runs the scanner over your items, puts them in a bag, hands you the slip and lets you run your card through the swipe. He or she does not even have to figure out the change as the computer does that. So, for this startlingly difficult and soon to be eliminated job, Wal Mart should pay ........how much? Bueller, Bueller? | ||
| Pwnzor |
hear, hear! Brucelee sees the light. In the immortal words of your namesake: "Water can flow, and water can crash. You must be like water, my friend." -- Bruce Lee (Message edited by pwnzor on November 25, 2005) | ||
| Djkaplan |
Waaagaaa!!! | ||
| Brucelee |
I thought the following might be relevant: Give credit where credit is due. The political left is great with words. Conservatives have never been able to come up with such seductive phrases as the left mass produces. While conservatives may talk about a need for "judicial restraint," liberals cry out for "social justice." If someone asks you why they should be in favor of judicial restraint, you have got to sit them down and go into a long explanation about constitutional government and its implications and prerequisites. But "social justice"? No explanation needed. No definition. No facts. Everybody is for it. Do you want social injustice? The latest verbal coup of the left is the phrase "a living wage." Who is so hard-hearted or mean-spirited that they do not want people to be able to make enough money to live on? Unfortunately, the effort and talent that the left puts into coining great phrases is seldom put into facts or analysis. The living wage campaign shows that as well. Just what is a living wage? It usually means enough income to support a family of four on one paycheck. This idea has swept through various communities, churches and academic institutions. Facts have never yet caught up with this idea and analysis is lagging even farther behind. First of all, do most low-wage workers actually have a family of four to support on one paycheck? According to a recent study by the Cato Institute, fewer than one out of five minimum wage workers has a family to support. These are usually young people just starting out. So the premise is false from the beginning. But it is still a great phrase, and that is apparently what matters, considering all the politicians, academics and church groups who are stampeding all and sundry toward the living wage concept. What the so-called living wage really amounts to is simply a local minimum wage policy requiring much higher pay rates than the federal minimum wage law. It's a new minimum wage. Since there have been minimum wage laws for generations, not only in the United States, but in other countries around the world, you might think that we would want to look at what actually happens when such laws are enacted, as distinguished from what was hoped would happen. Neither the advocates of this new minimum wage policy nor the media -- much less politicians -- show any interest whatsoever in facts about the consequences of minimum wage laws. Most studies of minimum wage laws in countries around the world show that fewer people are employed at artificially higher wage rates. Moreover, unemployment falls disproportionately on lower skilled workers, younger and inexperienced workers, and workers from minority groups. The new Cato Institute study cites data showing job losses in places where living wage laws have been imposed. This should not be the least bit surprising. Making anything more expensive almost invariably leads to fewer purchases. That includes labor. While trying to solve a non-problem -- supporting families that don't exist, in most cases -- the living wage crusade creates a very real problem of low-skilled workers having trouble finding a job at all. People in minimum wage jobs do not stay at the minimum wage permanently. Their pay increases as they accumulate experience and develop skills. It increases an average of 30 percent in just their first year of employment, according to the Cato Institute study. Other studies show that low-income people become average-income people in a few years and high-income people later in life. All of this depends on their having a job in the first place, however. But the living wage kills jobs. As imposed wage rates rise, so do job qualifications, so that less skilled or less experienced workers become "unemployable." Think about it. Every one of us would be "unemployable" if our pay rates were raised high enough. I would love to believe that the Hoover Institution would continue to hire me if I demanded double my current salary. But you notice that I don't make any such demand. Third parties need to stop making such demands for other people. It is more important for people to have jobs than for busybodies to feel noble. Thomas Sowell is a Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow. | ||
| Brucelee |
"Water can flow, and water can crash. You must be like water, my friend." -- Bruce Lee" BL was the man! | ||
| Court |
You guys . . . . Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. . . I go out today, to buy a "cheap guitar kit" as a gift for a friend's 8-year old son who constantly oogles my guitars. Just as I get to Mandolin Brothers, this thread begins to swirlr in my mind. . . "American Made"..."willing to pay for quality". . . The 8-year old owes you guys a HUGE debt. . .my Small Neighborhood Business is safe from the predatory practices of Guitar Center and the likes. . .  | ||
| Ryker77 |
Plus alot of the walmart people are part timers. People in school, or housewives that just need some extra cash. Even people that work 2 jobs. Even as I type this I am at a retail job making 8.50 an hour. But I am a full time medical student. In less than 15 months I'll be earning 50+ a year Wal-Mart is America. Period. The rich at the top get richer and the middle class supports it. We could look at the poultry, food, or service companies and the use of Illegal labor -- if you really want to pick on a company. | ||
| Spike |
Court- Your generosity exceeds that of those around me. I'm constantly oogling the Taylors, Martins, and well-aged Guilds played by those around me, and yet none of those guys has presented me with a Martin of my own. However, my father-in-law did present me with a set of Martin strings. No matter, my trusty Epiphone suits my skill level just fine.  | ||
| Richieg150 |
As far as Wal Mart pay and the like, no one is forcing anyone to work at Wal Mart. If they don't pay market wages, they don't get employees. That doesnt work,they WILL get employees for lower wages..........Didnt they just get busted for working 150 Illegals cleaning their stores..........but WALLMART wasnt aware they were illegals,non english speaking,or working for under market wages............{RIGHT!} |
