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Cochise
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 09:07 pm: | 
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I just don't see where Buell would sit in this superbike super high tech market segment. $45000 buys you a very very special and very trick motorcycle. If you could buy a $45000 Buell what do you think Buell could do to make a Buell worth that much?
Alright cut this crap out!!! Are you guys nuckin' futz? Keep talking about this $45,000 dollar crap and Buell may think that it's a great price and build as such. I say Buell gets a big motor, and I'll pay $12,000 for it.  |
Buelltroll
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 09:23 pm: |
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Take a 30 thousand dollar 999r ADD 35 thousand dollars in uber upgrades and you get a 65 thousand dollar 999r Evo-R.
Damn I need to stop getting these magazines. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 09:25 pm: |
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Don't get me wrong. I think Buell are doing very well and they don't need to manufacture a $45000 motorcycle to prove it. They do what they do, best of all, better than anyone else, and that doesn't include building $45000 motorcycles to prove anything. What Buell have carved is something rather unique in todays motorcycle market and I can't think of a single manufacturer nor model that is really that comparable to Buell. I don't know whether it's the simplicity yet innovative creation that makes them entirely different or whether it's something even more straight forward than that, like for example how uniquely stylish their models are. Whatever it is Buell have, they hold an enviable position in the market and I'm not convinced Buell building a $45000 special would do them anything other than bring criticism to them. Work it out because that's what I believe Erik Buell thinks too, and it's taken me years to work that out for myself.
Rocket |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 09:43 pm: |
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Hey, I said I was interested in 20k not 45k. Sheesh! (...and for 20k it had better be special). |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 02:29 am: |
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Harley already did this. It's called the V-Rod Destroyer. It doesn't corner, it is not street legal, and for $30,000 it will go as fast as a stock liter bike that will cost you $18,000 less. Even the best Buell race bikes don't hang with stock liter bikes. What makes you think the Factory can do better?
Besides, the Motherships idea of making a special edition bike is to add chrome, paint, and a loader exhaust. Not really what you guys are looking for is it?
I love my Buell, but I also accept it for what it is... |
Mikej
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 08:13 am: |
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But the liter bikes don't sound like the "Destroyer". |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 08:46 am: |
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er, what's not being talked about here with all the zoomie high-buck scoots is the fact the most folks expect HD and Buell to make a profit -- I'd submit that the admittedly gorgeous eyetalian sleds you guys are talking about come from companies that exist either because their government supports them recursively, their owners LIKE motorcycles and don't care if they make money at it or not, or are generally lurching from one buy-out to another
the bikes you've mentioned are truely lust-inducing, but they don't make money -- I'd be surprised if they even pay for themselves. this is fine if you're name is Leno, and you have a mchinist on staff to make spares once the company abondons the market (again), but a lil tougher if you're name is bomber (in which case you're not gonna buy a 45G scoot, anyways ;-})
Given the hue and cry of the cost of service and parts (both pretty reasonable, generally, I think) heard on this board, can you imagine the din over a 20K Buell? phew!
I'm curious if the James Edition Yammie is legal in the letter as well as the spirit of the law . . . .
Like Rocket sez, Buell's doing what it does best -- it would be fun to see a limited edition or two with upgraded power (although visions of the waranty costs of the first 442 come to mind) and suspenders -- make it an XB12S, call it the Road X Edition
;-} |
Chiefiron
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 09:10 am: |
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im glad i found this thread. i just got a quote from a HD/Buell dealer in upstate NY on a new XB12R. $14,495. i cut and pasted the msrp from the Buell page and sent it back. why do i say this. well two reasons im buying my first Buell now. ive been a harley owner for years and years now and am ready to get back into sport bikes and Buells are it. After many message boards looking for the fabled 150hp buell, and builder that will slam a 90ci twin into the tiny Buell frame ive settled on the XB12R, what ever year i can get new between 04 and 06, drummer pipe, Race ECU, opened airbox and K&N filters, and as much carbon fiber i can find. i still need to decide if i want to leave the frame alone or have it polished and either gonna get ride of the wheels or have them chromed. im shooting for around 15K total but i guess that will depend on what i have to pay for the bike in the first place. these boards are great by the way. roger out |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 10:07 am: |
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But the liter bikes don't sound like the "Destroyer".
No it doesn't... Cause if it did, you couldn't ride it anywhere except a track (or a Harley open house)...
I think liter bikes and 600 sound cool in there own way much like an F1 car vs. NASCAR, Gotta admit, something pretty wild about a Yamaha R6 turning 17,500 rpm... From the factory no less!
Besides, if I had $20,000 to spend on a Buell, I could get alot more bike then the Factory could offer me. I don't have to worry about things like EPA, and DOT inspections. Yeah I do on the street, but it's not even close to what a Factory issued bike would have to go through. I just got to worry about Barney Fife pulling me over. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Tommy_2stroke
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
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Yeah, what Bomber said... business is business and if you don't make a profit you will not survive. Unless something else is going on beneath the surface. That point bothers me, when I see each new year's crop of totally redesigned Japanese sport bikes crammed with the latest high-tech innovations, selling for prices that can't possibly cover the cost of the R&D. For example, last year's R1 was already at the top of tech, and this year its all new all over again-- and then next year-- and yet it sells for the same, or nearly the same price? How is this possible?
Don't misunderstand, I am not pining for a Buell with features like an R1. That would ruin the bike, destroy its character. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that Buells are fairly priced, but the competition is underpriced for reasons I do not understand. I am highly suspicious of Japanese corporate business practices, however.
A Buell big-bore factory hot-rod would be great, but it wouldn't be a big seller and it would have to be priced honestly (profit!), not subsidized like the competition. It would also have to meet EPA regs. and customers expectations of daily-driver reliability. These constraints are real, and limit what is practical for Buell to design and build. You know that Buell is still a small outfit, despite being part of the mother-ship...
(Did I mention how much I like my 12S? Gawd, what a great motorcycle...) |
Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
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Amen Brother Bomber.
and yet it sells for the same, or nearly the same price? How is this possible?
Mass production, with a capitol M. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Mass production with a Capitol M, for sure, Glitch
also, keep in mind that the Big 4 are in other businesses besides Motorcycles -- from time to time, for instance, it is likely that their non-MC division subsidize their MC operations (the entire reason to diversify) --
all of the manufacturers face the same constraints (EPA regs, price points, ROI, etc), but Kawasaki Heavy Industries has more room to manuever, fiscally, than HD does . . ..
lastly, Japanese governement has subsidized R&D efforts for many businesses in the past (though I'll admint I'm not aware that they have/are doing so for MC firms) -- US goernement doesn't. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 01:26 pm: |
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US goernement doesn't.
And shouldn't, talk about a cluster ••••• |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 01:58 pm: |
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For example, last year's R1 was already at the top of tech, and this year its all new all over again-- and then next year-- and yet it sells for the same, or nearly the same price? How is this possible?
Ever consider your Buell is overpriced ?
The Japanese don't rely on related companies to support their motorcycle manufacturing divisions. That's ridiculous. The truth is far more simple. Each motorcycle is cost as a single unit produced before it's ever produced, then multiplied by the amount of numbers to be produced. If production costs are not met by a percentage profit at a set production target production will be modified accordingly or ceased.
Rocket |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 02:20 pm: |
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Glitch -- you got that right
Rocket -- you may be right today, but even money sez that was not always the case -- 50 years ago, Yamaha was most certainly not making money on their bikes -- something was keeping the lights on and helping payroll checks be produced
your model is likely pretty darned close to accurate, needing only the price point variations per geography to be factored in -- it's no news that exported products are priced far differently in various locales, for any company, form any country, depending on the company's market plan for that georgraphy.
Lastly, some bikes of the Japanese flavor never turn a profit -- yet they are produced anyways -- |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 04:37 pm: |
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I for one am NOT convinced that the Japanese make a profit on their sport bikes. I've been hearing rumors for years that Kawasaki, for example, hasn't made a profit on motorcycle sales since the early '80s. Remember those 'powersports' dealerships sell everything from ATV's to lawnmowers, not to mention all the other things those companies are involved in. Harley/Buell, on the other hand, only builds motorcycles.
Also, one must consider Japanese racing budgets as part of the advertising expense of marketing these bikes, as without the race victories they lack 'cred'. Factor in those costs and there is no way they are making a profit. Do you have any idea what running a MotoGP effort costs these days?
I think you are going astray in the first place by assuming that everything they do is logical and geared toward making a profit. That totally fails to take into account how important 'face' is to the Japanese executives that run those companies. After all, like the rest of us, they are only human. Contrary to what some seem to believe, they are NOT geniuses or supermen. |
1313
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 07:34 pm: |
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1313 |
Tommy_2stroke
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 08:31 pm: |
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"Photomontage" it says, beneath. Interesting, though. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 08:48 pm: |
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A huge amount of budget for high end racing comes from outside sponsorship. That's why sponsors can and do dictate rider(s) to a team.
Rocket |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 08:54 pm: |
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Interesting??? I would say UGLY!
Buell could put out some special edition paint schemes, that would be cool. I still think the Race striped X1 bikes are the second best paint scheme only behind the X1 Milineum. That bike was sweet looking! There was also the red andn asphault colored X1 body parts that looked pretty cool. If youlook at the detail Harley puts into some of their bikes, the Buells are pretty boring.
Actually that is one thing I have never really liked about the XB line. to many mismatched colors. If the Black XB12r was all black, frame, wheels, windscreen, it would look sweet. What about a tribute paint scheme on an XB12r using the old rr1000 colors?
What about a polished frame from the factory? It could be an XB12b (for Bling!)
(that comment ought to get some people going crazy) |
Blublak
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 12:07 pm: |
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  XB12b (for Bling!)
I love it.. we could have a subdued paint scheme and call it the XB9D (for Dull)
On anther note, what about a special edition that really paid homage to the early bikes? Full fair a special 1000cc engine in an XB Long Frame. Put an RR1000 style body on it.. call it something like the 1000XRR - Beef the mill a little, so it really does scream down the track/road whatever, and sell it! You could probably do the whole thing with a price point not much more then a current 'long' model bike. since the really hard fabrication parts would be the new body plastics and the retuning of the engine/computer system. Once they are done, there shouldn't be much more R&D needed, since the rest of the machine is already 'on the shelf'.
Or am I missing something in my really simple train of thought? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 09:06 pm: |
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Jeez Ken, that's a pretty snazzy paint scheme you got going on your M2. You realize that's a factory colour right????
I take my hat off to Buell for their paint themes. I don't go at all for white anything with wheels on it but the pearl white on the S1WL is a fantastic colour and the way Buell used it on the frame and wheels too really works.
The S2's wore some really nice colour shades too.
I look at Japanese bikes, especially the race reps, and wonder what the hell the paint designers were thinking. I'll give you one very recent example. The latest fly by wire R6 looks nothing special (relatively speaking of course) in blue or black clothing. See it in two tone red and white and it looks so much sharper as the colour contrasts highlight the various design elements within the bikes shape.
Painting any vehicle is never easy and I admire how gifted those that can paint beyond just laying on a few colours here and there. I think Buell have known the importance of this for years.
Rocket |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 08:10 am: |
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Should I not have posted that?
(Message edited by glitch on November 17, 2005) |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 09:54 am: |
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Uh.....either that's photoshopped or you have been somewhere you shouldn't.
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Firemanjim
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 10:26 pm: |
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Huh??? |
Superbee24
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 09:07 am: |
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Glitch "Should I not have posted that?"
Damn it, I hate it when I miss something.... |
1313
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 09:42 pm: |
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1313 |
Jandj_davis
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
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Wow, 1313, that has got to be the hottest looking 'S' I have ever seen. I really like the dark/light contrasts. Who's is it? |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 10:50 am: |
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Yeah, thats nice.
Simple and clean looking. Wouldnt even be that expensive to do.
Uh oh, the gears are turning.
 |
Xb12rene
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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I think the Martini bike was built by a German Buell-dealer.
Reminds me on the Lancia Rally cars.
Some more pics:
The following ones are also built by dealers.
Rene |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 09:23 pm: |
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Jeez Ken, that's a pretty snazzy paint scheme you got going on your M2. You realize that's a factory colour right????
Yeah Rocket, I know it is stock bodywork. I also have been collecting a second set of bodyparts for a new paint set (I am short a windscreen still). Which I will be painting (attempting for the first time) myself. As for the bike, I have already polished my swingarm, triple trees, fork lowers, custom 3 gauge billet dash, added orange LED's, built a custom polished belt gaurd, and added custom graphics to my chrome derby and timing cover (which I also did myself). I am waiting for after christmas to bolt on my new chrome brake calipers.
Actually, right now it's kinda like your bike, lots of work done to it and still sporting the stock color on the plastic
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 07:23 am: |
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Well Ken, I've spent two late nights this past week in front of the computer with my very talented printing friend who can do good things with Coral it seems, and I'm still not convinced which way to go with the 'stock' colour of my S1W.
My problem is nothing from the factory, despite what that Pete guy who use to own a nuke blue and orange S1W might tell us, is better on an S1W than Carbon Black. I have a great idea in my head. I can now, thanks to Steve and Coral, see some progress of where my idea might take me but I'm not convinced.
The problem with doing 'mock up' painting themes on a computer is we are working on a 3D image of my S1W on a flat screen then applying a 2D image on top of the flat 3D image. So our next step is to apply it to the S1W in any way we can to see if it might work.
I know what colours I want to use for the overall paint theme, and what fonts (and their colours) for writing etc I want to use, then I have this rather simple yet very bold idea to apply without getting into serious "oh yeah that's a fantastic mural / theme / paint thing you got going on" comments from casual observers. I don't want to detract to far from the BLACK that Buell gave my S1W to start with so I'm still going to have a predominantly black S1W. It's what I add to it that's going to make it a subtle but eye catching coolness that I'm seeking. I'm not wanting a limited amount of appeal that involves skulls, flames, aliens, tattoos or similar. More, I want my S1W, once painted in my idea, to appeal to everyone that loves tube frame Buells, whether they like my idea or not. That's how good I want it otherwise I won't do it.
If I can't get that far because it doesn't work, I'll share my idea with the BadWeB for any ideas on how to try to make it work and if it doesn't then maybe someone might be able to do something with it for themselves.
It's all worth it in the end
Rocket |
Bigblock
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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ghost flames and ghost skulls can look pretty awesome if they are done REALLY WELL, but, unfortunately, you don't see that very often. Very rare. Not quite as rare as as a flame job on black that is truly done right. I've only seen that once. On a 40 ford. In Sweden. Indescribable. So totally awesome and gorgeous that words simply could not do it justice. In fact, since seeing that paint job, I can hardly look at black or flame jobs anymore.
So ya got a high standard to live up to here, Rocket!   So do it right and bring black back to me Brother! |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 08:41 pm: |
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Ken, I have a flyscreen for ya, its a weird green with silver that will need sanded down but shoot me a price and I'll send it up. I'm going a different route with my front end so I don't need it anymore. Still got my e-mail? |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 08:45 pm: |
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Rocket...
The reason you bought your bike in the first place is because it caught your eye. that's probably what makes going to something other then black more difficult. I am a big fan of the white XB9 and S1W color. I am thinking of doing a white paintjob with orange racing stripes to match the frame. I too am still playing with different ideas in my head. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 01:24 am: |
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Black flames on black sounds fantastic! Don't tell anyone.....shhhsh.
Rocket |
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