| Author | Message | ||
     Smitty808 |
Ok, maybe this should be in the KV, but it's Harley tech, not Buell. I have cornered a sweet little thing with a 2004 Heritage Softail. She is having a stumbling problem, under certain conditions. She says if you run it pretty hard, and then back off(say a corner), then back on, it falls on it's face like it's running out of fuel. It is scaring her, and keeping her from riding. I would like to figure it out for her, to save her some $$ Sounds like maybe a MAP sensor to me, but I know NOTHING about Harley's injection! If it was a Honda, I would take it to work, and plug it in! Anyone got any ideas? Or links to some info on troubleshooting this injection setup? I need to find values to use to test the electrical components in the system. Would be sweet to find some service manual pages somewhere online! | ||
| Smitty808 |
anyone??  | ||
| Daves |
Is it all stock? If not what mods have been done? | ||
| Smitty808 |
Pipes have been changed. That's it. She put 2000 miles on it since they were changed though, so I wouldn't think they would be they cause. She had them done at a shop, and I don't know if they did anything to compensate for any extra fuel needed for the pipes. It seems to start and run cold just fine, so I would assume it's getting enough fuel then. I haven't checked out hardly anything on it yet. I like to learn a little about it before I start prodding around....I have broken some things like that in the past. | ||
| Daves |
Sounds like it needs the SE download done to the ecm It's 149.95 plus labor. | ||
| Smitty808 |
So is this like a ECM map? Like you would put in a power commander? | ||
| Rageonthedl |
What pipes are they? IF its anything other than SE slip-ons or the 16g double barrel full system. I run it on a Dyno and do a A/F. if the A/F is flat during a power run and about not to lean during crusing i would put on a Race Fueler but make sure its the old style that can only add 50% fuel (the pod case is black) not the new style that can take away 10% and add 40% fuel (the pod case is chrome) the new ones are JUNK they pop off idle and just about make the bike die and sometimes it will die. If the A/F is all over the place get a Race Tuner yeah it is $450 and they will prolly charg 3-3.5hrs to tune it but it will make a world of diffrence. | ||
| Smitty808 |
I haven't ridden it yet. I will this weekend. The more I think about what she says about it...the more it sounds like a lean condition from the pipes. I asked her if it ran better when it was hot back in mid summer, and she said yeah, ran terrible when it started getting colder. Backfiring out the intake. Sounds like you guys may be on it, something to adjust the fuel ratio to suit the needs of the motor. I assumed there was something wrong with it, because when we put pipes on we compensate for them...not everyone does I guess. When you assume it makes an A$$ of U, and ME! Thanks guys....I will keep you posted! (Message edited by smitty808 on October 28, 2005) | ||
| 2hogs |
Just some thoughts. Seems some (maybe most) HDs are lean in stock form, I bet mainly due to pass EPA regs. If the pipes lean it out further, problems could be had. I had a '05 Night Train with SE 2into1 pipes and SE air cleaner. It was carbed and they have to rejet (richer) it for the combo. Solving it could be as easy as getting the Stage 1 EFI download or you could go route Rage mentioned, guess it depends on the $$$ you want to spend. | ||
| Madduck |
A number of friends have opted for the Harley Race Fueler instead of the Race Tuner. Solves most of the common problems and is a hell of a lot easier to set up. Probably going to add one to my street-rod this fall. I think its about $200. | ||
| Madduck |
There is lots of infor on Harley FI on the v-rods.com forum. MJW930 posted this awhile back Glossary of Common Terms BAS – Bank Angle Sensor This sensor is located in the turn signal module and it sends a signal to the ECM if the bike leans over more than 45° from vertical. If the ECM gets this signal for more than one second it assumes the bike fell over and it shuts down both the fuel management and ignition circuits. CKP – Crank Position Sensor This sensor provides input signals to the ECM that indicate engine rpm, (how fast the engine is running in Revolutions Per Minute). The ECM also uses these inputs to determine what stroke the engine is in so it can deliver the fuel and spark at the desired time. ECM – Electronic Control Module This is the brain of the system that collects input signals from multiple sensors, makes decisions and sends output signals to deliver fuel and spark to the engine. Electric Fuel Pump A 12-volt high-pressure fuel pump, (located in the fuel tank) supplies fuel under pressure to the fuel injectors ET – Engine Temperature This sensor provides input signals to the ECM as it reacts to the temperature of the front cylinder head of Softails and Touring model motorcycles. The ECM uses the signals from this sensor to determine if the engine is at operating temperature, or warming up. Fuel Injectors The fuel injectors are electric valves that open and close to deliver a high-pressure spray of fuel directly at the intake valve. They are controlled by output signals from the ECM to deliver fuel at a precise moment, (just before the intake valve opens). If more fuel is needed, the ECM will signal the injector to remain open for a longer period of time. The period of time is known as the injector "pulse width" and is measured in milliseconds. One method of rating fuel injectors is by their flow rate – such as in gm/sec, or grams per second. Fuel Pressure Regulator A mechanical device that controls fuel pressure to 55-62 PSI by returning excess fuel from the fuel pump back to the fuel tank. The regulator is located inside the fuel tank on Softails and Touring model bikes IAC – Idle Air Control An electric valve that’s threaded, (each rotation is a "step"  and controlled by output signals from the ECM to open and close as needed to allow enough air into the engine for starting and idle operation. The greater the number of IAC steps, the greater the amount of air enters the engine through the IAC passages. IAT – Intake Air Temperature This sensor provides input signals to the ECM as it reacts to the temperature of the air entering the engine. For example, hot air has less oxygen in it than cool air. The ECM uses the inputs from this sensor to help calculate how much oxygen exists in a quantity of air. Ion Sensing System This system uses ion-sensing technology to detect detonation or engine misfire in either the front or rear cylinder by monitoring the electrical energy at the spark plug following every timed spark. If an abnormal level of energy is detected across 2 or 3 spark firings the ECM responds by retarding spark timing in the problem cylinder as needed to eliminate it. MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure This sensor provides input signals to the ECM and reacts to intake manifold pressure and ambient barometric pressure. Intake manifold pressure reflects changes in engine speed and load. Ambient barometric pressure reflects changes in atmospheric pressure caused by weather conditions or changes in altitude. The ECM uses the inputs from this sensor to help calculate how much air is entering the engine. TP – Throttle Position This sensor provides input signals to the ECM as it reacts to throttle shaft rotation, telling the ECM throttle position, if the throttle is opening or closing, and how fast it’s opening or closing. VE - Volumetric Efficiency Volumetric efficiency is a percentage rating of how much air is flowing through the engine while running as compared to its theoretical capacity. For example, an engine with a displacement of 88-cubic inches running at 5600 rpm at full throttle has a theoretical airflow capacity of 100% when it flows about 143-cubic feet of air per minute, (cfm). If the same engine flows 107cfm at 5600 rpm it would have a VE of about 75%. If the engine flows about 157cfm at 5600 rpm it would have a VE of about 110%. Note the VE can exceed 100%, especially in high performance engines that have improved airflow through the engine. VE reacts to engine speed and to anything that increases or decreases airflow through the engine. VSS – Vehicle Speed This sensor provides input signals to the ECM to indicate if the bike is moving or sitting still. It is used mostly to assist the control of idle speed. Overview of the Harley-Davidson ESPFI Electronic Sequential Port Fuel Injection System, (ESPFI) The ESPFI system is a completely new engine management system used on select 2001 and later Softail models and select 2002 and later Touring models. This system is a speed/density, open loop, sequential port fuel injection design that controls fuel delivery, spark timing, and idle speed. Look-Up Tables: Look-up tables contain the information the ECM requires to control engine operation. The ECM uses many different look-up tables to make decisions on fuel and spark management; these are the VE, (Volumetric Efficiency), AFR, (Air Fuel Ratio) and Spark Advance tables. These look-up tables are stored in the ECM’s internal Flash memory which the Tuning Mode software can change and reprogram. Volumetric Efficiency (VE): One look-up table the ECM always uses is Volumetric Efficiency (VE), which is a percentage rating of how much air is flowing through the engine as compared to its theoretical capacity. For example, an engine with a displacement of 88-cubic inches running at 5600 rpm at full throttle has a theoretical airflow capacity of 100% when it flows about 143-cubic feet of air per minute, (cfm). If the same engine flows 107cfm at 5600 rpm it would have a VE of about 75%. And, if the engine flows about 157cfm at 5600 rpm it would have a VE of about 110%. Note the VE can exceed 100%, especially in high performance engines that have improved airflow and tuned intake and exhaust systems. The VE value depends on engine speed and to anything that increases or decreases airflow through the engine. The VE Look-up tables in the Screamin' Eagle calibrations are calculated from data gathered while testing engines on engine and chassis dynamometers, and with track testing on instrumented vehicles. Air Fuel Ratio: The ECM also monitors the intake air temperature and manifold absolute pressure, which provide it with an indication of air density, or the amount of oxygen contained in a volume of air. The AFR, (Air Fuel Ratio) table, which is programmed into the ECM, tells the ECM what AFR the engine should require under specific engine loads, (engine load is determined by monitoring manifold absolute pressure and engine rpm) to produce the performance that’s desired. Spark Timing: The front and rear Spark Advance tables tell the ECM the desired spark advance desired for specific engine loads. The actual spark timing used is modified somewhat from the table value based on several operating conditions such as engine temperature, air temperature and fuel quality (octane). Engine load is determined by monitoring Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) and engine rpm. Operation: When the engine is running the series of events typically follows the process below: The ECM monitors the CKP, TP, IAT & MAP sensors telling it engine rpm, throttle position, intake air temperature and manifold absolute pressure. The ECM looks at throttle position and engine rpm and then refers to the VE Look-up tables to calculate the volume of air that should be entering each cylinder under the present conditions. At the same time, the ECM looks at intake air temperature and manifold absolute pressure to calculate the density of the air entering the engine. From the Air density and the air volume, the ECM calculates exactly how many grams of oxygen are in the air entering the engine. Now that the ECM knows exactly how much oxygen is entering each cylinder, it refers to the AFR Look-up table for the AFR that’s desired. From these values, the ECM calculates how much fuel is required and determines what the fuel injector pulse width must be to deliver this fuel. It then sends the appropriate output signals to the fuel injectors to deliver the fuel. The ECM also refers to the Spark Advance tables for the desired spark advance for each cylinder at the current engine rpm and engine load. The ECM then sends output signals to the front and rear ignition coils to deliver the desired timing of the spark for each cylinder. Transient Conditions: Start-up When the engine is experiencing a transient condition it may use additional tables to handle the condition. For example, a cold engine that’s being cranked to start rotates at a very low rpm and needs additional fuel. The ECM reads the ET and CKP sensors, which tell it the engine is cold, and that it’s rotating at cranking speed. The ECM then refers to a Cranking Fuel table and directs the fuel injectors to remain open longer, (by increasing their pulse width) which delivers a richer air/fuel mixture for starting. It also directs the IAC to open to its programmed number of steps to allow enough air into the engine for starting and idling. When the engine starts to run, the ECM sees the higher rpm and then refers to the Warm-up Enrichment table to add the additional fuel needed while the engine is still cold. The table is designed to diminish its effect to zero as the engine comes up to operating temperature. This is analogous to automatic "choke" operation on a carburetor engine. Heat Management System The ESPFI systems on 2002 Touring and Softail series bikes also incorporate a sophisticated heat management system that operates in three phases to keep the engine cool in extreme conditions. If the ECM detects engine temperature above approximately 300° F while moving or stationary it reduces the idle speed. A lower idle speed produces fewer combustion events per minute and that reduces engine heat. If the ECM detects an engine temperature that’s still drifting higher while moving or stationary it richens the AFR. An increased amount of fuel in the air/fuel mixture has a cooling effect on the engine. If the ECM detects an engine temperature that’s still drifting higher while moving or stationary it directs the fuel injectors to skip, (only when the bike is stationary) and not deliver fuel on every intake stroke. This limits the number of combustion events taking place, which produces less heat. How the RT, PCIII and TFI (DFO/Race Fueler) differ in operation To recap, regardless of the method used, the ECM monitors the CKP, TP, IAT & MAP sensors telling it engine rpm, throttle position, intake air temperature and manifold absolute pressure and uses these values in combination with internal tables to calculate fuel delivery and ignition timing. How the Race Tuner works The Race tuner is a ECM programming device, it does not remain connected to the bike after the new programs are downloaded into the ECM. The Race Tuner is used to change the values in the lookup tables that exist in the ECM to make the entire system deliver the proper fuel and spark needed to achieve the performance desired. With the race tuner you can modify: Air-Fuel ratio VE Front Cyl VE Rear Cyl Spark Advance Front Cyl Spark Advance Rear Cyl Rev Limit Warmup Enrichment Cranking Fuel Idle RPM IAC Warmup Steps (RPM vs. Temp) ECM Tuning Constants = Engine Displacement & Fuel Injector Size If this seems daunting then you're not alone and to remedy this H-D has included a "Basic Mode" that gives you a 2 tables to modify, Air-Fuel Ratio and Ignition Timing. The software will map this information to the more complex tables for you. It's more of a shotgun approach but it's a good way to get "into the ballpark" if you're way off. Tuning is accomplished by manipulating the table values in the Tuning Mode program and downloading them directly into the ECM. The Race Tuner also has a Data Capture module that allows you to record data in real time from all these sensors and play it back one increment at a time. This is feature is very useful but can be very tedious if you don't know exactly what you are looking for. The Race Tuner can modify the rev limiter as well as reset the speedometer to accommodate the 28T pulley upgrade on '02 - '03 bikes. It cannot adjust for variable pulley configurations or chain conversions. The Race Tuner cannot reprogram the ECM back to it's stock configuration. The Race Tuner cannot upload (read) the map (program) information loaded in the ECM. It only returns the file information about the program loaded in the ECM. This is why it's critical that you get a copy of the program loaded into your ECM from your tuner. The Race Tuner can only be used to program one bike, the first one it actually writes a program too. It can read any Delphi equipped Harley How the Power Commander III works The Power Commander is a piggy back device. This means it is installed between the ECM and the EFI wiring harness. It remains attached to the bike after installation. The PCIII DOES NOT modify any of the internal lookup tables. It interprets the data coming into the ECM from the sensors above and manipulates the signals to make the ECM see different readings. At the same time it manipulates the output signals to the fuel injectors and ignition coils to achieve the desired results. This isn't as easy as it sounds. The PCIII has to do the following to work correctly: Analyze the incoming signals Determine the proper fuel and ignition advance required Determine what signals and values to change Change it's output signals to the ECM, Injectors and Ignition to achieve the desired result And do it in a constantly changing environment I'm not sure the the exact method they use to achieve their results but I'm pretty sure it's a combination reading the ECM inputs and manipulating the signal pulse width to the fuel injectors and delaying or advancing the signal to the ignition coils. This is all controlled by map files that you or your tuner manipulate and download into the PCIII. The newer USB version offers an accelerator enrichment function (not really needed on our bikes since that is part of the basic function of the ECM) as well as the ability to modify the front and rear cylinder independently. The PCIII cannot increase the rev limiter or adjust for the 28T front pulley upgrade on '02 - '03 bikes. Techlusion Variants (TFI / DFO / Race Fueler / Gill's box) The Techlusion Variants are piggy back devices but less intrusive than the PCIII. This means it is installed in parallel to the EFI wiring harness. It remains attached to the bike after installation. These devices can be thought of as "Jet Kits" for EFI controlled bikes. Rather than utilize programmable maps like the PCIII they utilize an enrichment program that's RPM and load dependent, just like the internals of a carburetor. They are relatively easy to hook up but require you to splice into the EFI wiring in 4 places. There are prewired harnesses for most of these that eliminate this need. RPM, Acceleration, Deceleration and steady state operation is detected and monitored by the device and fuel is added based on internal programming and external trim pot settings. They are very "analog" in their approach to fuel enrichment and seem to work very well for the majority of the users who have simply changed pipes and air filters. The adjustments are typically for fuel enrichment in RPM ranges as well as crossover adjustments to define those ranges. They also offer an accelerator enrichment function (not really needed on our bikes since that is part of the basic function of the ECM) These devices cannot adjust ignition timing or raise the rev limiter. | ||
| Smitty808 |
Thanks for all the help guys! I went up, and listened to it sunday...has the lean pop, plugs are lean. Pipes are the Vance&Hines straight shots...no baffles! On stock mapped injection!  Race fueler is on the way! That way I can change it for any future mods. Again...thanks! | ||
| Rageonthedl |
Race fueler is on the way I hope its not the new style that can take away 10% and add 40% fuel (it has a chrome pod case). If this is the one you got take it back they are junk, they make the bike "pop" right off idle and can make your bike studder or stall out. Their is no way to tune it out. What you need is the old style Race Fueler, It has a black pod case and add up to 50% fuel. But still I would put the bike on a dyno and look at the A/F befor you buy anything. | ||
| Smitty808 |
black case!  |
