| Author | Message | ||
     Luvthemtorts |
Now don't get me wrong I absolutely love my Firebolt but when I actually sit and study it (late at night for hours on end LOL) I notice it hase some quirks that seem poorly thought out. For instance, having to rotate the engine to remove the headers or service the top end seems like insanity and from the manual appears to be quite an involved process beyond the scope of many armchair mechanics (myself included). Secondly, the extensive use of cast parts makes me wonder about the durability of the product. After reading about the breaking peg fiasco I have concerns about the swingarm itself and the mounting of the swingarm directly to the engine . Since the cast pieces are porous doesn't this mean they are inherently weaker than parts machined from solid stock? I understand cost is an issue but I personally would rather pay more for a product that will last compared to a less inexpensive product using technologies that seems flawed. Am I missing something here? The technology and innovation is obviously there in bucket loads but was it done at the expense of using cheaper materials to keep costs down? Keep in mind I come from a background of custom cycles where the engine is exposed to a point where virtually anything short of splitting cases can be done quite easily. Also my past cycles had predominately billet components which seemed bullteproof and in some cases onerengineered for strength/longevity. Can someday clue me in on what I'm missing? | ||
| Trojan |
Rotating the motor is much harder in theory than it is in practice, and is easy to build up as a huge job in your mind before doing it for the first time. The manual tells you to disconnect lots of things that in actual fact can stay connected just to do the headers. I won't go into the whole process here but once you have done it once or twice you'll develop your own check list of parts to remove/leave. If you think the Buell is awkward, try changing the spark plugs on a VFR800 Honda......... Cast parts are the industry standard now and used in pretty much all sportbike frames and swingarms. I think maybe the footrests breaking is more down to bad casting/materials or bad design than an inherent problem in cast parts generally. | ||
| Xring |
Perhaps cast parts are not as strong or durable as machined parts of the same design, but then if they were designed to be cast, there should be no problems with reliability. If there is, it is poor design, not necessarily poor choice of manufacturing. For instance, my antique tractors' (well, my modern tractor, too) engines and transmissions are castings, and also comprise the frame for the tractor. The oldest one is 58 years old, and it hasn't had an easy life. The castings are still intact. Overengineering, by definition, means the part is heavier than it has to be. In performance terms, that is poor design. As for maintenance, I guess we all wish that vehicles were built for it, but I've seen so many autos that were such a pain to work on that I realized ease of maintenance isn't a priority. The truth is we ride 99% of the time and work on them 1%, so we should be happy that they are designed to ride/drive rather than maintain. The more I look at and tinker with my Buell, the more I'm convinced it is genius. Good luck, Bill | ||
| Nutsosane |
Jackie, every message from you is posted after midnight! Maybe you should stare at the bike in actual sunlight. The Peaks of Otter restaurant off 43 has a nice bench to sit and ponder all things BUELL. That's code for let's ride, I've got no work til Monday night. NUTS | ||
| Aldaytona |
I am so tires of the "kustom cycle kraze" where everyone is a bike builder/expert, they feel they must critique every other bike made by REAL manufacturers with real R & D dollars, and criticize all but the most absurd creations. "Billet" is used more as a marketing tool for the sale of parts to these individuals than as a strength/quality issue.  Choppers used to be lean and mean, sorta like the guys that built/owned them, not fat and ridiculous (kinda like the guys who pay to have them built and ride them). I'm convinced it's genius as well. | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Jackie, Those kind of thoughts are supposed to be keep for the dead of winter,when your already gone half crazy. When you start having doubt's about your ride during riding season,it just slows you down. If you want piece of mind,Al has some really good billit pegs for your bike.It's the only part I have consern's with on a really kick A** bike.........Charlie | ||
| Bomber |
Morts -- there are a number of ways of making a part -- casting, forging, chewing it ourt of billet -- like the Xman sez- if they are properly designed and made for the application, the manufacturing method isn't an issue ( think of the pistons in most, if not all of your engines -- likely all cast, for instance) while, as a tuber pilot, I've not worked on an XB series scoot, a number of folks I trust state that the engine rotation isn't as big a deal as it might seem -- given the frequency of plug changing these not (not very frequent at all) seems a reasonable trade off for a densely packaged engine chassis combo to me -- I'm in the genius camp, with just a touch of insanity thrown in (gotta be a little mad to think that far outa the box and yet produce something that works so well, I'm thinkin) | ||
| Glitch |
All I can say is after close to 40thousand miles on my little XB9S I have NO complaints. Last weekend we rotated a friend of mine's engine to swap headers. It's an hour job. I like the design of the bike. This tiny package has served me well in the mountains, in the city, and anywhere else I've decided to ride it. I'm in the genius camp, with just a touch of insanity thrown in (gotta be a little mad to think that far outa the box and yet produce something that works so well, I'm thinkin) Me too! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just as a data point, many of the pegs that broke were powder coated, and there are plausible reasons why this could have significantly compromised the structural integrity of the part. An aspect of the design is also that I suspect they are designed to break, which I tend to appreciate. Has anyone actually broken one in normal use (even standing on the pegs going over a bump)? Or are they all "dropped it or hit them at a funny angle" deals? | ||
| Mikej |
Someone in the 3%er group just posted this morning about breaking one bumping into something. Makes me just a tad nervous about them. | ||
| Spike |
I think the questions have mostly been answer, but I'll chime in anyway. It's certainly true that cast parts are weaker than billet parts, but if a cast part is strong enough to do the job then why add in the extra cost of using billet? I'm sure in some extreme torture test we may be able to see a swingarm or the cases fail earlier than a billet part, but the reality is that I don't think we've seen a swingarm break yet. Even in the nasty crashes, I haven't heard of a swingarm breaking. About the engine rotation, I haven't done it myself so I can't really comment on it. On the other hand I've seen it done before and it looks much easier than the book makes it sound. That brings me to another point about the XB- it's really easy to work on. When I bought my '99 M2 one of the things I really liked about it was the way everything was exposed and out in the open. I gave the bike a lot of credit for being easy to work on. The reality is that the bike wasn't difficult to work on, but a lot of things were harder than expected. The XB gives the opposite impression. Most things are hidden and seem too compact. The truth is that the XB has been a breeze to work on. All the parts are cleanly designed and so well laid out that everything comes apart easily. My XB is just shy of 20k miles and I haven't come across a difficult repair/maintenance job yet. I vote genius. | ||
| Davegess |
I don't think one could make an XB swingarm out of billet for anything less than an enormous amount of money and eventhen it would need a bunch of welding to put it together. The thing is hell for stout, it won't break. Billet is not magic stuff, it is used in many custom bike 'cause you can machine one piece fro far less the tool to make it from a casting or forging. I am pretty sure that a forged part has better properties than billet for most applications, lighter, stronger, less brittle, etc. BUT make one forge piece would cost a lot. Powder coating any cast aluminum part can remove the heat treating an dmake it brittle. | ||
| M1combat |
I've rotated my engine for a header swap and it's reasonably easy. I swapped both spark plugs yesterday (the manual states that you should rotate the engine to get to the rear plug... You don't need to). It took about 35 minutes but I didn't quite have the right tools. Just for the record... You CAN swap the rear plug with just a plug wrench, 3" extension and a ratchet (and a T27 of course). For the front... You don't even need the extension. Genious. I weigh 220 and I've never broken a peg (except when I dropped it in a parking lot at 2mph). I do make a point to stand at the inside of the peg though. I'll also replace the pegs w/ aftermarket pieces at some point... Probably about the same time I pick up a set of Rizoma rear sets. | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Aldaytona, Chill my brother! I am not putting the XB down. In fact as I stated I love it. I was simply asking questions about the design of the bike and the rationality of hiding the top end in such a way that dropping the motor was necessary for maintenance. As for the customs you can be sick all you want. I didn't pay anyone to put mine together. I have built two from the ground up (crate engines). As I previously stated I am mechanically inept so that should show just how easy they are to assemble and work on. With the XB I feel lost when thinking about doing my own service. Jason, My hours are a bit different than most. I am typically up till 4:00 or 5:00 a.m. each night and then sleep till around noon. I have found the best tv programming comes on late at night LOL! A ride this weekend is definately in order. I finally figured out the PM thing so I will call you to set something up. Charlie, I hear ya but I just can't keep myself from going down and staring at it for hours. I tend to tinker and study it from all angles trying to get a grasp on figuring it out. Good luck at the races and get some pics so me and Jason can see whats going on behind the scenes. | ||
| M1combat |
You really don't need to rotate the engine for "maintenance". You don't even need to rotate the engine to remove the header or to get to the O2. Granted, getting to the O2 w/ a ground down crows foot (so it'll fit and have room to move), a 6" extension, a wobbly and a ratchet is only slightly easier than rotating the engine, but neither method is really too bad. A spark plug change is easy w/o rotating the engine. Unless you have a Force pipe I'm pretty sure you can take the cam cover off w/o removing the header. The primary is easy. Primary chain adjustment is easy. Oil drain plugs are easy to get to. There's not much "maintenance" to speak of anyway. I don't really consider oil changes and primary adjustments maintenance exactly but just because they're so easy. It's not like adjusting the rockers on a Duck or shimming valves on my old CB 750F-SS or anything. Timing is easy to get too. I can swap the muffler and re-map my PCIII in like 15 minutes (you don't need to loosen the rear wheel and remove the idler pulley like the manual says). Clutch adjustments take a little bit of time (maybe 30 minutes) but it's an EASY procedure. | ||
| Midknyte |
After reading about the breaking peg fiasco I have concerns about the swingarm itself and the mounting of the swingarm directly to the engine I, uh, *know* of a certain Firebolt that was rear-ended while at a standstill, buy a Ford Tempo doing about 35-40 (40 mph zone). Frame, swingarm, mount & bearings, everything - NOT DAMAGED. Wheel and Tailsection was another matter, as were superficial items on the left side where it came to rest. The XB is "Tonka Tuff" Oh, and the peg fiasco it is not. It's still just a rumeration... | ||
| Lucas70374 |
Like M1combat is saying, Its easy. I fouled some sparkplugs on my trip to Colorado, I had some tools with me, but I had to go and buy a long extension for the rear cylinder. I changed my plugs and wires in Hot Springs Ak at the Harley shop and it took me about 30 mins. Then I had to pull my full fairing loose to remove the air scoop for the front plug. I rotated my engine once and that was to replace the front head. When I installed my Force exhaust I didnt even rotate the engine to do that | ||
| Buell2001b |
i rotate my engine when im bored, keeps me busy. coolest thing is when i rotate it 180, then its really easy to get to the plugs, bu then the damn muffler in my •••. damn buell  seriously i would not ride any other bike then a buell, well maybe a motoszscl. im defenetly not riding one of those choppers, then i would have to put 300 lbs so i can look good in it | ||
| Panic |
Unless you need to examine a mixture change, why do you need to see the plugs? | ||
| Midknyte |
Revving the engine at a standstill, a very tempting thing to do, will foul the plugs. Especially so at startup if someone (a mechanic?) treats it like a regular ol' Harley. | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Goodness this seems to be a tough crowd! As someone suggested the cam cover cannot be removed without motor rotation because the pipes cover one of the bolts not to mention having to remove pushrod/s. I never said you couldn't remove plugs without rotating the engine. I was referring to rocker box and head assembly/removal, gasket replacemet, header removal, etc. With the swingarm I am not necessarily concerned about the swingarm iteself but the mounting bosses on the engine cases. Since you would basically have to replace cases should one of the bosses crack you would in effect spend as much as the bike is worth getting it fixed. One more time and shouting for those who didn't get it the first time I LOVE MY XB!! I guess coming from a different scene I just need to put my trust in the engineering department and leave it at that. | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Midknyte, I forgot to add that it must be a consiracy then. An awful lot of people have either had it happen or are jumping on the bandwagon o' lies. That is the problem with so many things in this world. One becomes so loyal in a brand or belief that they will defend it to the end instead of being able to say "great product but has a few minor kinks". | ||
| M1combat |
I haven't heard anyone say that you hate your XB  . We're all just pointing out our positive (most of the time) experiences. Lucas70374... You don't need a long extension for the rear plug. a plug wrench, a 3" extension and a ratchet is all you need. place the socket and extension on the plug, then snake the ratchet in with the handle pointing towards the rear. You will need to tug on the wiring harness that runs along the top of the frame right there to get the ratchet on the socket. It won't sink all the way in, but up to the ball, and that's fine for the torque needed for a plug. The cam cover "can" be removed w/o removing the stock header. You'll need to grind an allen key of the proper size down so the short side is very short . WRT push rods... You can replace the plastic pushrod covers with "regular" pushrod covers. I think you just need to buy a base. In this fashion you can use adjustable pushrods. Of course, you still need to remove the rocker boxes (and the heads?) to get the original push rods out (unless you want to just cut them out...). When it comes to removing heads, rockerboxes, pistons etc... Just take the engine out... Your job will be easier IMO and at that point you'll have EVERYTHING easily accessible so you could just go about replacing the oil pump gear, re-tape all of the oil line fittings, clean it up, add some hot cams or throw in some rockers with a different ratio, or slap in a lightweight clutch basket etc, etc, etc... It's pretty easy to remove the engine. It doesn't take a LOT more work than just the rotation. The main thing is to realize that you'll have no support whatsoever for your swingarm, so tie it up like the manual says. At that point you have a VERY simple and tweakable engine laying on your bench just DYING to get a set of heads with some large valves and a hot cam to make them move... Go hog wild with it . | ||
| M1combat |
Do you mean the plugs fouling or the non bent swingarm? If it's the plugs... That's EXACTLY why I had to replace mine yesterday. I gave it a tad bit of fuel to get it started yesterday and fouled one. It was cold and I have a Force exhaust which runs pretty rich on the bottom. I need to make a couple more tweaks to my fuel map . | ||
| Lucas70374 |
If it's the plugs... That's EXACTLY why I had to replace mine yesterday. I gave it a tad bit of fuel to get it started yesterday and fouled one. It was cold and I have a Force exhaust which runs pretty rich on the bottom. I need to make a couple more tweaks to my fuel map . I know what you mean, mine is the same way. M1combat I know you dont need a long extension, I took a 4k mile trip and it was much easier for me to buy a long extension and use that. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh, yeah... certainly . With a wobbly even. I would have had to walk about three miles each way to get to my tools though, so I had to at least attempt it with what I had . It worked, but it was one of those situations where I could get one click worth of a turn, then rotate backwards, one more click... It took a couple minutes to just get it loose enough to turn with my hand. It worked though , so now I know. | ||
| Midknyte |
I've only once started it with too much gas, or rather, giving it any gas at all. It was after I'd installed my bar-ends. I had to back out the right one a hair because it would rub the grip hold the throttle open. Went to start it once and just about soiled myself:  Never had any trouble though, if it makes a difference, cuz I put the pro plugs in right after I bought it. | ||
| Aesquire |
As far as castings being weaker than billet. Not always so. Tops in strength is forged. Pounding or pressing the grain structure in a metal usually packs it tighter & stronger. That's why rolled threads are stronger than cut. The current crop of castings use neato tech & can be just as strong as, and achieve shapes not possible in 1 piece carved from chunk. Castings injected into molds under pressure approach forgings in tensile strength & are stronger than billet. As an example, look at a Ruger firearm. Ruger uses lost wax castings extensively. I've never even heard of a Ruger breaking & I know one of their auto pistols was dropped from fairly high up from a helicopter. Scratched but not broke. | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Aesquire, Thanks for the info! I had no idea that casting could reach the same strength levels as forged or billet. I didn't realize Ruger used the casting method for their firearms. That puts my mind at ease. If it can handle the amazing pressures firing a bullet creates then it certainly must be strong enough for a motorcycle. I wish I knew about the spark plug thing earlier. I like to roll the throttle at stop lights just to hear it grumble. Guess I won't be doing that anymore. | ||
| Midknyte |
I've only heard it being a problem with the stock plugs. Grab a pair of the Pro's (and the Pro Filter) when you have a chance. De-Snorkle if you have one. Do a search on snorkle - we've been over it here a brazillion times. | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Midknyte, I just got done reading the posts regarding desnorkeling so I went down and removed it as you suggested. Some of the posts said that this was supposed to be done with the factory race kit (which mine has). Do you know if that is true? I am a little concerned that it will now run lean or will the ECM adjust itself to the new airflow? I had noticed a little backfiring when I let off the gas to slow down so perhaps it was already running a hair lean. Any thoughts? | ||
| Midknyte |
Snorkle is to be removed when adding the race kit. They missed that. If it's not running well, go back and ask them if they did the TPS Reset. But before you do that, take it out on the highway or some other road that you can run it at a steady 3500 to 3800 rpm for at least 10 minutes. (I think that is the right range - some1 jump in and correct me if I'm wrong). The ECM will sort things out. See if that helps. | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Thanks Midknyte! It runs great like a gorilla on crack. Just a slight "backfire" when letting off of the gas to slow down. I will hit the Blue Ridge Parkway tomorrow which will allow me to keep it within that RPM range for the recommended time. Stupid question but I have to ask. It doesn't hurt the engine to keep it revved that high for an extended period? | ||
| Nutsosane |
Jackie the nine with race kit would feel best between 3500-5500. Today I'll bring you an extra set of earplugs, that helps me concentrate on the exhaust note and not worry about excessive engine noise. We're gonna have to get off the parkway because those speeds mean tickets on the weekends. NUTS | ||
| Midknyte |
3500 to 3800 is not high for the new buells (c'mon - it's only halfway to redline). Just gotta get used to it... Yes its a Harley engine, but it's a hopped up Harley engine  (Message edited by midknyte on October 01, 2005) | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Me and a fellow BWB went for my first ride without the snorkel today. Initially the bike seemed to cough and sputter in the 3200-4000 range. After 10-15 miles it started smoothing out and the rest of the ride was smooth as butta'. I don't know if its in my head but it surely feels like it has more get up when rolling on the throttle. Thanks again Midknyte for the tip! I started riding the bike in the suggested RPM range and was pleased with the results when cruising above 45 mph. However I swear it sounds like it is going to explode trying to keep the RPMs up when slowly rolling along. | ||
| Midknyte |
You just hear more of the top end noise, er, music with the snorkle pulled. |
