| Author | Message | ||
     Jon |
I'm draining caffiene juice and cycling Santana's "She's not there" through headphones. One of my all time favorites. Oh yeah, Buell Rocks, too. | ||
| Jon |
Hah! That's a good one, Cochise. I'll steal that one for later. | ||
| Blake |
Alan, "Ok Blake, since you are full of engineering..." LOL! Yes I am full of it all right.  "...what is the purpose of it? " Asked and answered, but to recap... reduced mass, improved acceleration performance and handling, reduced unsprung mass, improved suspension performance thus improved road holding performance, reduced parts count, less complex, reduced failure paths, more reliable. Pretty simple. Do you really have to be a genius to understand how a wheel/brake assembly that is 20% lighter is a valuable thing? Do you have to be a technical expert to grasp the benefit of reduced weight in general? If you had the ability to understand suspension performance and the effect of unsprung mass, I could explain it to you. But you've proved that you do not have the slightest desire to understand the basic concepts involved in a damped sprung mass system. It's pretty simple... Less mass - good. More mass - bad. Less mass - improves suspension performance. More mass - hurts suspension performance. And in general even... Less mass - good. More mass - bad. Less mass - improves acceleration performance. More mass - hurts acceleration performance. Less mass - improves handling. More mass - hurts handling. If I had a desmo engine with two massive big bore cylinders with big ole intake valves that could rev to 15,000+ rpm at will with no problem. And if there was no comparable spring return big-bore twins that could approach that rev limit, and as a result the big bore desmo twin makes significantly more power, enough to compete head to head with even IL4 cylinder machines having double the number of cylinders and valves, would you see fit to call desmo valve actuation "engineering for engineering's sake"? I wouldn't. With their amazing history of success, I'd be among the last to ever characterize any of the engineering that Ducati Corse employs as "engineering for engineering's sake." But you go right on ahead and do so. It's only your opinion after all, and among those of us who have a clue, it is not all that meaningful insofaras the sciences of mechanical engineering. Humility is a good thing. Similarly the BMW telelever front suspension offers real and significant advantages over other systems. That you seek to categorize a particular approach as either "best" or "engineering for engineering's sake" with no middle ground is very unfortunate. You seem to want to rate motorcycle components or subsystems designs based purely upon their ability to outperform competing designs on a race track venue, no other considerations matter. Fortunately for most of us there are many many other very valid and real criteria for rating whether a certain configuration is better than another. Sorry to be so hard on you. Not much tolerant of ignorant folks berating the innovatve work of engineering professionals. Whether you are able to recognize it or not, the Buell ZTL wheel/brake system is indeed an honest to goodness major leap ahead in motorcycle technology and a major innovation in the industry. (Message edited by blake on September 28, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
To expand on the "best" versus "engineering for engineering's sake" issue, if you were shopping for a new sports car and you had narrowed the choice between two contenders, one with 20 more HP that required valve adjustments/checks every 20K miles and one that had no valve check interval, which would you say is better? Are hydraulic lifters better or are OHCs with shim and bucket configuration better? Would either be characterized properly as "engineering for engineering's sake"? I guess if I have a choice between two comparably performing vehicles but one requires significantly more maintenance, is significantly less fuel efficient, and is significantly more complex, maybe a characterization of "engineering for engineering's sake" would be appropriate? Gee, what might fit that description? | ||
| M2me |
a choice between two comparably performing vehicles This is where you trip yourself up and the Kool-Aid jokes start. Are you saying that a Buell performs comparably to a Honda CBR600RR? A bike with half the displacement? What about a Yamaha R1? A bike with 200cc less displacement? Come on! Put comparable riders on the Buell and either the Honda or Yamaha and the Buell is going to get smoked! On the track or the street. Straights or twisties. That's reality! I really enjoy my Buell M2. I don't need to justify or defend my choice of motorcycle to anyone. But I'm not delusional. | ||
| Cochise |
Hah! That's a good one, Cochise. I'll steal that one for later Might as well, I did | ||
| Tramp |
"I owe you a brew Tramp." back atcha. I think a lot of us here owe each other some suds. I look forward to said suds. SO much common ground, too easy to pick through and find differences. I've certainly been more than guilty of this.... I'm still learning. I think we all are. Blake- I'm pretty sure the blake/tramp theory was floated for yuks.... about as plausible as danny devito and ah-nold as "twins" (paramount films release). I'm 5'10, 185 and talk like joe pesci. If i'm not mistaken, Blake's 7'11, 350 and speaks like an erudite john wayne. on that note, I've heard Alan's 8'13, 250 and elocutes like a gonzo journalistic Jeff Spicoli. All 3 Ride Buells, at least some of the time. None will turn down the backed-up brew | ||
| Henrik |
Thanks for all the well wishes and the vote for not being peed on. High praise indeed  I guess my attempt to distract from the "dead horse topic" at hand didn't work  Had a great day anyway. Something to be said for having the 20 women in the office buying you cake and giving you hugs - and then come home to a great evening with the lovely Melissa and presents - no Uly, but great stuff anyway. Perfect except for missing having my family around me as well - close as well as extended. Thanks again Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
happy belated birthday, Henrik! and as many more as you'd like! if yesterday was your birthday, today is your Un-Birthday, and, through sheer propinquity, it's my Un-Birthday too! what a small world! anyone else having an Un--Birthday today? | ||
| Tramp |
happy un-birthday, both of youze- small world, but i wouldn't wanna paint it... .and on that note, it's back up de ladder with a bucket of stain, for bre'r trampus | ||
| Spike |
I think that's just it, the various Buell systems have produced better results than other systems. The problem is that the Buell's results don't always mean faster lap times than the competition. Comparing a given vehicle with a new technology to a completely different vehicle without the same new technology is a good way to compare two completely different vehicles, but not a very good way to compare the new technology. I could point out that a pushrod-powered Z06 Corvette with only 2 valves per cylinder will suck the headlights out of the DOHC 5-valve Ferrari 360. However, this does not mean that pushrods are superior to overhead cams and it certainly doesn't mean that overhead cams are "engineering for engineering's sake." | ||
| Cochise |
I'm 5'10, 185 Blake's 7'11, 350 Alan's 8'13, 250 Cochise is 7'3", but Joe Frus is only 5'10 1/2"} | ||
| CJXB |
CJ's 10' tall and bullet proof !!!  | ||
| M1combat |
Chop... Do you know what ackerman angle is? Ackerman angle causes ripples in pavement at the inside of tight turns (tighter than you would see on most racetracks, but common on twisty canyon roads). The reduction of unsprung mass enabled by the ZTL braking system on the XB platform helps the front wheel retain traction when traveling over these "washboard" bumps. It also helps when on the brakes and you run over lines in the tarmac. It also helps when you're coming out of a turn and run run over bumps (less tire deformation, less input that can cause a tank slapper). It also happens to help tremendously on a dirt road. It also weighs less (this is always good). | ||
| Rocketman |
And then there is Rocket, saying that no motorcycle is perfect. Is anything perfect? Oh yeah, happy belated funkies Henrik. Have a pickled herring on me! So I wish I had a quid from everyone that visits my workshop and asks me if Saab's are reliable. I see more broken Saab's in a month than most average Joe's see in a lifetime so my answer should be no they're not. Or perhaps I'm the last person one should be asking. Well of course they are is the right answer but it's a relative scenario and one which can only be fairly judged if we offer a comparison. When it comes to Buell, the bike not the engineer, I've offered plenty of negativity over the years after my own unfortunate experiences with the brand. I've been through hard times on this board too, mainly because of those self same opinions I've previously expressed but there are a handful of pissing in the wind comments that remain true. I still own my S1W. Yes I've put a lot of effort into making it a better S1W than Buell did to start with but I'm not in the business of mass producing motorcycles to make a living from. Point is, I'm certain if no such 'constraints' existed for Erik Buell he'd make a better S1W than mine. The S1W is a great bike but you have to accept their quirks to allow them to be great. Yes for me they're underpowered. The old Harley transmission is not really suitable. They over steer in some circumstances. The head bearings wear out too often yada yada yada, but that's not the point. The point is its uniqueness so these misgivings or shortfalls have to be the price I pay if I wish to own one, and I do. Is there something better? That too is a relative question. You couldn't win a Classic Bike race on a S1W but you could on a Goldstar. I would like a Brutale. I don't want to part with my S1W, or my 916, I like them both too much, so I'm looking hard at raising funds to buy a Brutale without having to let go of these two wonderful and yet totally different bikes in order to do so. I live a fairly simple life. Have no desire to own a huge screen TV. No desire to ride around in a new(ish) car nor enhance the contents of my wardrobe every weekend. In fact I don't own a wardrobe. What I do like to over indulge in is bikes and one day if I have enough of them they may even form the basis of my pension because I don't have one of those either. Lastly. Too much negativity on BadWeB loses you friends. Ask me, I was once an expert. Tramp, there's a thread from a few years ago where we explained where we got our (user)names from. Search it out man. Mine had nothing to do with Triumph's but there is a distant connection. Remind me to te..........................never mind LOL. As for those 'Rocket' leather pants. They don't fit me since my thyroid exploded but when they do I'll jump for joy (in them). Chop, Nice one. Keep up the good fight. Nice to see my good friend Blake nailed you on the Desmo issue though. My opinion - you let yourself down with that one  Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Rocket is a true Ducatista. I am too. Just wish I could afford one. A garage to keep it in would be nice too. But I'm too darn happy with my Buell Cyclone to really notice. | ||
| Blake |
"Are you saying that a Buell performs comparably to a Honda CBR600RR? A bike with half the displacement?" I said exactly what I intended to say. Read it again and don't take anything from what I state that is not there. I shouldn't have to clarify. Pretty darn simple. Sorry you are having a tough time understanding John. | ||
| Blake |
And to be clear, in many respects, in fact in all but top speed, and peak HP, a Buell XB12R outperforms a CBR600RR in virtually all respects... fuel efficiency, cornering, simplicity, ease of maintenance, uniqueness, reliability, etc... | ||
| Jon |
As long as we're talking "other" bikes, I would like to have a Suzuki SV1000 with the full body work. Or really and older RC51. Dig 'em. Hey Chop, All in good sarcasm, stick around please. Somewhere, somehow, somebody owes me a beer. No coffee tonight, just raisen bran. Blake good to see you around! Got yer Laguna Tickets yet? | ||
| Choptop |
And to be clear, in many respects, in fact in all but top speed, and peak HP, a Buell XB12R outperforms a CBR600RR in virtually all respects... fuel efficiency, cornering, simplicity, ease of maintenance, uniqueness, reliability, etc... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ baaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhahhahahahahahahahaaahaahhaha baaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahaa *deep breath* BAAAAAAAAAAahahahahahahahahahahhha <insert Tom Hanks laugh from "The Money Pit" here> and you called ME stupid? oh brother.... | ||
| Choptop |
I MIGHT give you uniqueness... but then again, is anything that can be had at your neighborhood dealer (and both the CBR and a Buell can be had in nearly any hamlet in the US) REALLY unique? Sure the Buell LOOKS different than the CBR, but that dont make it unique. | ||
| Choptop |
if Desmo valve trains were the bees knees, everyone would have one. Here's a tip.. Ducati didnt invent it, nor do they hold the patent on them. Its marketing. If there were REAL WORLD advantages that outweighed the DISADVANTAGES everyone would be riding bikes with Desmo engines. | ||
| Choptop |
Comparing the CBR600 and the XB12 is a fools quest. Different beast, made for different purposes. Please, dont try. Like trying to teach a pig to sing. It make one look silly... and annoys the pig. and at least, try riding both first before expounding on their realitve values. I'll wait...... | ||
| Jon |
Flame fest...bring your own meat... | ||
| Bomber |
tramp -- you ol sherwin williams freak, you man on man, but the rest of y'all are hard to distract from your urination conctests! enjoy yerselves, hear? | ||
| Henrik |
Thanks Rocket, I appreciate it. I'm lining up for a nice danish lunch with pickled herring and Aquavit this weekend. I'll hoist one or two for you. Bomber; yep, dedicated group here - I tried Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
Herring and water of life -- little better, I'm thinkin! glad we're not down range in the contest area, Henrik! | ||
| M1combat |
"Comparing the CBR600 and the XB12 is a fools quest. " Right. It depends on where you're at Alan... Go drink some Carrot juice man. They say that helps with your eyes right? If you're on the street, the XB12 is the bike to have out of those two. If you're on a racetrack then it depends on the racetrack. Do you not realize that power isn't that important in racing as long as you're close? Sure, you fight for every tenth of a horsepower you can get, but that's the name of the game. You fight a LOT harder for handling. People keep lamenting the fact that we use 1200 WHOLE CC'S (well OK, 1203...) to get a little less power than an IL4 600. Uh, yeah. You know the old American saying "There's no replacement for displacement."? It's wrong. The replacement is RPM. IL4's use RPM, the Buell uses displacement. It allows an engine that's more simple and less manic. They both have their strengths. Neither can be said to be superior because it depends on WHERE YOU ARE. Do you realize that the best roads are a LOT tighter than 99% of the racetracks out there? Why not use a street bike on the street? Why take a chassis that's designed for wide open fast sweeping corners on a racetrack and bring it to the street and say "See, it's fast on a racetrack, it must be fast on the street too." That's pretty ignorant. Which do you figure would be faster on a tarmac rally stage... A Rally car or a FIA GT class Viper/Porsche/Corvette/Saleen/Lister/Ferrari/Lamboghini? Lemme give you a hint... The rally car... It's made for the streets. The GTs... they're made for long sweeping turns like you find on racetracks. Another hint... The rally car has less than half of the HP. Any idea? The Buell is a street bike. It was made for that. It does that well. It has the chassis for it. It can be made trackable as well. It does that well too. Buell's drive around the outside of whatever they would like to Alan. Go try an XB sometime. What does handling mean to you Alan? Do you understand what handling is? I mean definitively btw. | ||
| M1combat |
From Jeremy Clarkson - "If you do encounter someone over there who’s fond of performance cars they’re only really interested in how much g can be generated in the bends, whereas here those of a petrolhead disposition don’t care at all about grip, only what happens when it’s lost and the car is sliding. Then you are into the world of handling. A world where nothing but skill keeps you out of the hedge." | ||
| Eeeeek |
600RR is a great handling machine. Won every single FX race this year, too. As for Blakes list, here's my un-biased comment: fuel efficiency - Buell, but not by as much as you would think. cornering - Honda. It's close; but the Honda trail brakes better. simplicity - Buell ease of maintenance - Honda. The 600RR I raced this year has gone two full race seasons with nothing more than oil changes. This is common for Hondas. uniqueness - Neither are unique, Buell is rarer reliability - Honda. See ease of maintenance. I didn't think that even the biggest Buell proponent would say a Buell is more reliable than a Honda. I don't think even Court would back you up on that one. The Buell's a fine street bike. I've taken an XB12 out through the Napa twisites and it did a great job. Not better than the R6 or 600RR or 954 or other bikes; but, it hummed right along. I did have to shift more on the Buell than I did on my 954, though. Vik P.S. M1, you need to stop lecturing licensed road racers on how to road race until you've at the very least completed one race. |
