| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp |
CJxb said: "Dang near, that's not very good english and who was pissed I must have missed that, didn't seem any badwebber was pissed ??! " um...where do I begin? first, my 'old-timey' turn of idiom was meant to be ironic, but i guess you "must have missed that", too. when m1 combat posted this: "So you actually prefer the fact that signs need to be posted in English/Spanish and some places Hmong? I'm all for the people that want to come to America. Really, I am... But they should learn English and use it daily. I'm all for people coming over here to participate in the American dream... But pay your F'ING TAXES AND STOP USING FREE HEALTH CARE THAT I THEN HAVE TO PAY FOR! I pay nearly $700 a month in taxes... I ALSO pay for health care. I could care less if someone wants to listen to Mexican/Arabic/rap/whatever kind of music while rollin' along with those dingle berry things in their car and a plush velvet interior... Heck, I even like those cars... But PAY YOUR FREAKIN' TAXES SO I DON'T HAVE TO, AND SPEAK ENGLISH. " ...he sure seemed pissed. I guess you "must have missed that", as well. funny the way speaking spanish is something he equates, somehow, with tax evasion. were i a spanish speaker, i'd take some offense. being that i'm a native english speaker(you know- the language spoken by most of our tax evaders here in the US) i'm not. Anyway, cjxb...looks like you "miss" a lot. like when you go on to say: "I don't see Spanish as being close to equal to English..." i can't hold that small ignorance against you. You see, there are MORE spanish-speakers than english speakers in our world, but if, like many americans, you don't...get out much... to other countries, well, you "must have missed that", too. you want to erronoeously "correct" my english? please- condescension works best when you don't "miss" so much hey- you took a shot  | ||
| Tramp |
i gotta add, though, that my grandpa had to learn english when he got off the boat from italy, as did my german great-grandfather...so these new clowns should learn english, as well, in my opinion. i have HUGE issues with the state of US immigration in general, and i've always felt, since 9-11, that that event would not have occured had we kept our borders, so to speak, more secure. had we kept GIs on our borders before that day, we could have avoided a lot. | ||
| M1combat |
I wasn't exactly "pissed" but really just fairly irritated  ... and I don't equate speaking spanish with tax evasion. "Don, it's not liberal policy makers that have pushed for the English Only Initiatives in schools. Its the conservative lily white republicans who are keeping immigrants in this country down. Systematic denial of work visas, non existent worker protection rights, NO HEALTH CARE, the list goes on. I agree with your basic premise Don, that learning English in a predominately English speaking country is a smart thing to do for a myriad of reasons. It's just that forcing a people, any people to conform to what the dominant (read more powerful) culture thinks is right or moral or just or patriotic is, by definition Fascist. " WRT the "lilly white Republicans" there are bad apples in every basket of course. The fact is though... Liberal policies enable the lazier immigrants to rest on their laurels. This shoves them into a position that only affords them menial labor jobs etc. If we were to take no steps to enable their un-willingness to learn English, more would be forced to do so. Therefore... More would be competitive in the lower and middle class job market... Dare I say it... They may even make it into the upper class. This is something that both the liberal and conservative elite do not want. If you look at the laws in various states though, you'll find that it's typically the Liberal ones that are the worst for "enabling". California and Minnesota come to mind. Arizona is headed there as well. Arizona will start to adopt laws that "help" immigrants from Mexico. All in the name of making their lives easier (Or getting votes... one of the two anyway). That's NOT the end result... The end result is that they create another portion of the lower class that's relegated to performing menial labor and hard labor jobs. I don't like to see that. I'd prefer that immigrants be taught English so they can actually go to colleges and universities and attain a better place in life. Why don't you want that? It's a fact of life that some jobs can not be done in an English speaking society by a person who speaks only spanish... even if they have the skills to perform the job. My job is one of those. You complain of a systematic denial of work visas... Well, doesn't that mean that the Americans will have more of those jobs? I'm not against immigration, but I AM for Americans. I don't see any reason to allow an immigrant to move in temporarily and take a job that would have been given to one of those non-working Americans that you so graciously pointed out (thanks BTW ). I don't believe that we should make it easier for immigrants. They should make it easier for themselves. It's possible. I've seen it happen. You complain that there are non-existant worker protection rights... What exactly should we protect them from? Someone else who can speak english or might have skills that are more appropriate for their job? That's competition. They should enable themselves to compete. They shouldn't have anything handed to them on a silver platter... I haven't, you haven't, why should they? It's a character issue. You mention NO HEALTH CARE... They have health care. Hospitals are not allowed to refuse patients in an emergency room. I pay for my health care. They should to. If I didn't pay for my health care, I would be in the same boat as they are. That's fine by me. The list goes on indeed... WRT fascism... Yeah... understood. The other end of the spectrum where you give people a job and then hand out bread, milk, eggs and a place to stay in return is Communism. Republicans generally tend to agree with a slightly fascist society. Liberals tend to agree with a slightly communist society. I agree with giving everyone the same chance and allowing them to do what THEY want to do or can do. That's freedom. That includes the freedom to come into an English speaking country (because they weren't born here, that's not anyones fault), learn english because it's the BEST thing (notice I didn't say the right thing) to do for ones self. What's the first thing you would do if you wanted to become a business man in China? Would you petition the Chinese Government to add road signs and bathroom notices in English, or would you learn Chinese? I would learn Chinese... I would also adopt portions of their culture. I have a friend that's the chef at one of the finest restaurants in town. A few years ago he hired Juan and (what's his name??? We'll call him Pablo because quite frankly I don't remember.) Juan and Pablo used to hang out at my friends house. They didn't speak two words of English between them but we sat around drinking beer and building choppers anyway. We ended up with a BEAUTIFUL OD green and chrome rigid 66 Triumph TR6 and a VERY cool '76 Sporty. They seemed pretty cool. Juan learned English and is now a taxi cab driver making about twice what he used to working for my friend washing dishes. Pablo is still washing dishes and I still can't talk to him. He walks to work too... If someone were to walk up to Pablo and tell him (If they knew spanish that is...) that they would give him a lump of cash that would make up the difference in what he makes versus what Juan makes if he learned English do you think he would do it? I do. But... He doesn't need to because there's spanish signs everywhere. Such is life I suppose. "I just don't believe that anyone should force their views on anyone else. " I dont either my friend... I don't either. If you give a man a fish, you feed him for one day. If you teach him how to fish, you feed him for his lifetime. Guess what... Maybe some day that guy will teach someone else to fish too... NAH, screw it... Social programs MUST be better. They rob from Peter to pay Paul... | ||
| Tramp |
m1- i didn't hink you DID equate the two, but your post certainly suggests otherwise. I won't get into plitical discussions on this board (or any others, for that matter), but think real hard (esp. about who's been working to ease restrictions on mexican immigrants) when you blame our open immigration policy strictly on "liberals". | ||
| M1combat |
Sorry - "funny the way speaking spanish is something he equates, somehow, with tax evasion. " I thought that's what you were saying... Maybe I don't comprehend so good. Anyway... I don't think I lamented our open immigration policy at all... yet . It has it's issues sure, but my blaming of our too liberal system along with its social programs that are prone to being taken advantage of are typically liberal in origin. Meaning that it takes a liberal mindset to design and implement our social programs or modify them to be as they are now. On the outset public assistance programs are a good idea. They just can't be allowed to fall into a state where they actually encourage people to sit on their ••• and live off of the backs of the working population that fund them. Ever read any of Jung's theories? Orwell's "1984"? I suppose making it a partisan issue wasn't necessarily correct of me (politically or otherwise ). As I said, after the fact unfortunately... there are bad apples in every basket. I made the statement above that "Social programs must be better. They rob from Peter to pay Paul.". I feel I need to say also that the actual case of social programs doesn't "quite" fit that cliche. The reason being that we don't actually owe Paul anything. We're still robbing Peter to pay him though. Why is Paul so special? Really... Why IS Paul so special? | ||
| Mikej |
Just gotta throw this in here: You can teach a man to fish, then charge him for a fishing license and set limits on when he can fish and what kinds of fish he can fish for. Sorry, just had to throw that in, okay back to the business of business.... | ||
| Tramp |
or..."give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. teach a man to fish, and he'll sit around drinking pabst blue ribbon on the shore with a zebco all day.... M1- first, I, personally, DO lament our idiotic immigration policies, and I consider them to be far too "open", but that's just me. now, then...THIS little phrase of yours : ""So you actually prefer the fact that signs need to be posted in English/Spanish and some places Hmong? I'm all for the people that want to come to America. Really, I am... But they should learn English and use it daily. I'm all for people coming over here to participate in the American dream... But pay your F'ING TAXES..." is the one, which, to me, equates speaking spanish to tax evasion.... | ||
| M1combat |
Well... I still don't see it. "Learn English and use it daily" and "But pay your F'ING TAXES" are even mentioned in two entirely different sentences. In any case... Illegal immigrants should learn english AND pay taxes. If they don't want to learn English... Fine, it's their choice (It's a bad one of you ask me). They should still pay taxes though. I still don't quite see where I have equated speaking spanish to not paying taxes... As a matter fact it seems to me that most of the places I've mentioned taxes have been in or around sentences where I was talking about immigration as opposed to immigrants learning English... So anyway, I'm done debating THAT topic. Waste your keystrokes all you'd like though. | ||
| Tramp |
nope- no need to waste 'em. we actually agree...as i said, your post only suggests it. we're on the same page, m1...believe me. and, yep- i, personally, feel that everyone who wants even temporary residency here should have to learn english. it should be mandatory, in my opinion. but that's just me.... | ||
| Dagwood |
"If you look at the laws in various states though, you'll find that it's typically the Liberal ones that are the worst for "enabling". California and Minnesota come to mind. Arizona is headed there as well." Not too sure about Minnesota, but California and Arizona have both adopted the English Only Initiative which was sponsored by their respective Republican legislatures. This is interesting in that they have the largest concentrations of Spanish speaking immigrants (also NM). "I don't see any reason to allow an immigrant to move in temporarily and take a job that would have been given to one of those non-working Americans that you so graciously pointed out." How many Americans do you know that would gladly pick fruit in field all day every day for pennies? Migrant workers take the jobs that lazy Americans refuse to. Thats not competition, it's filling a niche. "You complain that there are non-existant worker protection rights... What exactly should we protect them from?" EXPLOITATION. Having to work 15 hr days, 7 days a week for a dollar an hour. "They shouldn't have anything handed to them on a silver platter... I haven't, you haven't, why should they?" Surely you don't deny that by virtue of being born a white male in America we are given far more opportunities than the average world citizen. Think of it in terms of a Hindu caste system. We were born Brahmans, immigrants in this country are relegated to Shudra status (read Untouchables). I took federally subsidized student loans all the way through college...didn't you? Do you think Pablo or Juan would qualify for them? Of course not. "NAH, screw it... Social programs MUST be better. They rob from Peter to pay Paul..." See yourself in others folks. We are all just trying to make it in this world...some just need a little help now and then. Think of it as insurance for the future...your future. God forbid we lose our jobs and have to ask for assistance someday. | ||
| M1combat |
You seem to be missing my (The?) point Dagwood. If an illegal immigrant attained citizenship then he wouldn't HAVE to work for $1/hr for fifteen hours a day. It's illegal. We DO have worker protection rights for LEGAL workers. If they aren't here legally... •••• their protection, just like they say •••• your system. American's can not take those jobs (whether they would refuse to if they COULD take them is debatable) because if they have to pay taxes then they CAN'T be paid less than mimimum wage unless they are also accepting tips. WRT being born a white male in America... That's the luck of the draw. I have the luck of being able to pay higher taxes and health care costs because illegal immigrants have it easy in our too liberal system that's easy to take advantage of. If it wasn't so EASY for them to do so then a larger percentage of them (the ones that actually want to live the American dream) would learn english and MAKE THEMSELVES COMPETITIVE in the job market. Because we make it easy, they are allowed to live in the class they arrive in. That's not the American dream my friend. That's poverty and if they learn English they have a much better chance of rising above it. I never went to College, not even one class. I still make ~$20/hr. Why? Because I made sure I learned what I needed to learn to make it possible. I see a lot of white males that are citizens that haven't done so. They had the same chance I did and they didn't make the right choices. Life isn't about being handed something on a silver platter. It's about making a silver platter for youself. English Only Initiative... Sponsored by republican congresses... That's my point. You force the immigrants to learn English and they are automatically placed in a position where they are more competitive in the job market. That's a GOOD thing FOR THEM. Why can't you see that? As far as needing a little help now and then... Yep. I've been there (although I've only collected un-employment that I've paid into) and it was TEMPORARY. There are too many people in our too liberal society (both immigrant and american) that sit on their lazy asses collecting a Government check and living off of OUR sweat. I don't mean for a few months until they find a job... I mean for YEARS. That's not right. It's a character issue. You seem to not understand the fact that many (most?) immigrants who come here, learn English, become a citizen and make the leap into being an AMERICAN have the SAME feelings that I do. Here in Prescott there's a street corner where you can go pick up illegal immigrants and pay them $10/hr to do whatever you need done. They don't pay taxes on that money. That's like making $13/hr. I have a friend who works construction making $13/hr and has three kids and a wife to support. He pays taxes and health care and ASRS and all that stuff just like I do. Guess what... I would BET that those same illegals have a girlfriend that they live with who collects a government check. My friends wife CAN'T, she also has kids to take care of so she can't work either. The immigrants wife/GF can both stay home AND collect a government check because "she doesn't have a man to go make money for her... honest...". Due to that fact, my friend lives a lifestyle a level BELOW an illegal immigrant because that immigrant is taking advantage of the system. That's wrong. In any case... I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. | ||
| Dagwood |
The point is not lost on me, Don. I understand vividly what you position is as you've articulated it well. The only true fact in this discussion is that we disagree. I propose that we agree to disagree and leave it at that until we are able to discuss the issues in person. I probably won't make it up to Prescott on Sunday, but I'll be on the Salt River Canyon run on the 27th. Perhaps we can discuss it over a beer or ten.  | ||
| M1combat |
Sounds good to me . Too bad you're not making it up here on Sunday... the Spars is an EXCELLENTLY tasty twisty road . | ||
| Blake |
The worst case consequence of being excessively PC?...
| ||
| M1combat |
A bad case? Yes, Blake. The worst? So far... | ||
| Tramp |
worst that we know of.... excellent piece, excellent reference citation | ||
| Tramp |
this subject was covered over on ATC: "Three Mexicans go to get their citizenship, they do everything right. They are asked to write a sentence using the words green, pink and yellow. The first guy gets up there and says, "I like pink, green, and yellow." the quiz master sends him back to Mexico, because he didn't like the answer. Second guy gets up there and says, "Yellow is a pretty color, girls like pink, but my favorite color is green." That doesn't work either. Third Mexican thinks for a couple minutes, and says, "The phone go, green, green, I pink it up and say, Yellow? " | ||
| Jon |
Immigrants being joked about for their peculiarities is ok, as long as it isn't spiteful and is done in a good natured way. Like we ALL sound funny to someone, right? But degrading insult is always a no no. Speak english when in America to get by in America (DMV, School, etc). Speak whatever you want other than that. Put a wall up at the Mexican AND Canadian borders. Let more Mexican farm workers in, but manage that process!! Keep ALL illegals out and deport those now in violation. Let more English in America. Deport the ACLU to France. | ||
| Tramp |
if it weren't for france, there would be plenty of english here. in fact, we'd still be a colony, with NO gun rights and immense taxes. thank france for helping us secure our guerilla victories in our proud, noble little revolution. learn a little french, then spend some time in france. i have, and i can tell you the majority of those people kick a*s. I've met way more a*sholes here in the states than I have over there. no frenchman ever gave me sh*t for having long hair (when i did) or started sh*t with me in a bar, or rat-packed me with his buddies, etc. I've had to punch my way outta more BS here in my homeland than I've ever had to over there. No frenchman ever ran to the gendarmes after i'd cracked him in the mouth, either. smack down a drunken bully in an american bar, next thing you know, he's got the cops on you like stink on...well... you get it. Fat chicks are virtually nonexistent in France, as well, and, man, do french broads know how to party! not a lot of "atkins diet" or "do these pants make me look fat?" ladies there. their lives are NOT ruled by insurance companies, you hurt yourself, it's on you. lawsuits are virtually nonexistent there. "speed limit" has no real translation there, either. Their mountains are beautiful, they know how to enjoy life, their beaches are gorgeous and their sleek women burn their bare breasts brown on 'em. They are a people whom are very proud of their relationship with our own wonderful country, and the fact that our two countries have helped each other, and i, for one, still dig riding past that beautiful lady in our harbour, here, that they gave us as a symbol of thanks and of our common struggle against tyranny. I also helped collect the body parts of dozens of brave french soldiers from the rubble of bombed-out barracks, and their blood was as red as yours and mine. as to the ACLU, they're not my cup of tea either, but when our gun rights are threatened, who do you think is gonna fight to save those rights? everyone hates lawyers until they need one, esp. civil rights lawyers. you wanna judge france? fine. but go there, speaking their language, first. they're not any more jerked-off about non-french speakers than we are about non-english speakers. imagine if nearly every day in your hometown, some foreigner askes you, in a foreign language, refusing to attempt english, to take his/her picture. this is what french peeps, esp. parisiennes/parisians, have to deal with daily. and you thought YOU were tired of people not speaking your language... | ||
| Whodom |
Tramp, I hadn't read a lot of your posts until recently, but you are certainly one interesting dude. I pretty much like the way you think. | ||
| Buelluk |
Cor blimey Tramp, France it's a bloody paradise isnt it.... ... yup the French will fight for anyone for money..when it comes down to loyalty ..they are nowhere to be seen . For sale : French rifle..never fired ,dropped only once. | ||
| Tramp |
while i disagree with that fiction, buelluk, I WILL say that y'all limeys are some of the best, most transcendently humourous and standup people i've met. ever. and you guys DID show them normans a thing or two. (oh, and before any of my "stalkers" get all up in my sh*t about my flagrant idioms, let me go on record as saying that, "yes, I KNOW "y'all" and 'them' {in the above usage} are both hick vernacular, but I am proud, in fact, of my american hickdom.... " hmmm...'hickdom'..is THAT a word?" "let it go man, Tramp's on a roll" | ||
| Buelluk |
Tramp, you are a stand up guy..hope to meet you on Saturday ..and I have enjoyed many vacations in France and spent a lot of time defending the French against my countrymen. | ||
| Chasespeed |
Move this reactionary tripe to the politics board- M1Combat- No one is making you live in this country- if you don't like how the US is evolving, move. No one is going to force you to learn Spanish, and it's not like there's some huge public burden when the yellow pages makes a spanish version. Oh yeah- a race of people is not a mascot for some damn sports team. It's seriously offensive- it's like having the Washington Niggers or the Nashville Peckerwoods for a team name. Honestly, the way things are going, I think its DE-evolving. Youare right no one if FORCING anyone to learn spanish. ON a note, French is the common language in several countries I have visited in Africa, on the western coast, as well as Seychelles...English in South Africa..... Personally, the only ammendment that sould be changed or removed, is the freedom of the press. Either limit it, or dissolve it totally. I say this becuase, in some cases it puts people at risk. But as far as PC goes, I STONGLY believe in Freedom of Speech, adn will defend it with my Right to Bear Arms. You dont liek what I say, dont listen. Dont try to sue me. I will country to sue for trying to violate my Freedom of Speech. If people really wanna go this far, fight back. Dont even know why I posted here...but..this whole thing has gotten so far outta hand, its disgusting.... Chase | ||
| Tramp |
hey- chase- you posted here because you believe in your right to free speech and you chose, in doing so, to defend, verbally or otherwise,, your beliefs. please remind me, as i need to be reminded often, that none of this is persoanl, we are all friends, virtual or otherwise, and we share far more in common than we disagree on. i think it's safe to say we all want freedom and enjoy buelling, and will stand up for our freedoms. badwebbers, you all seem to be a great bunch to me, and again, please remind me, as i need to be reminded often, to be decent and not take it personally when another badwebber disagrees with me or insults me. that bedwebber is someone with whom i share many freedoms and beliefs. i'm sure i'd be proud to call any and each of all y'all my friend. | ||
| M1combat |
We don't need to remove freedom of the press IMO. We need to be citizens with the interest and intelligence to make our OWN CHOICES as to WHICH PRESS to LISTEN TO. If you think a certain press organization has put people at risk... vote with your wallet and don't watch/listen/read/buy their news any more. It's that easy. Money is just as useful as a vote (more so IMO). | ||
| Tramp |
that would be true if the average american got their opinio...er...."info" from printed matter. that is far from the case, however. the average american formulates their opinion from television and from online "homepage" news briefs. that being said, I despise your black soul, M1, and i think you're dumb  it's always "M1 M1 M1"  | ||
| Buelluk |
Actually Chase , the legal language in South Africa is ... Afrikaans | ||
| Monorad |
Lets take your argument one step further. Think about this. I'm partially NATIVE american (Algonquin, Kitigan Zibi). How about all of you damn whiteys get the f*** out of my land or at least give it back and learn to speak my language. You are all immigrants - we were here first ... Don't forget - history is one sided and is always written by those who conquer. LOL (sortof) | ||
| Monorad |
By the way Tramp, you really are an independent thinker. I love your posts - well thought out and honest. No cookie-cutter politics from you. Your post on France had me nodding my head and cracking up. Really good stuff, man. [full disclosure - I'm a bastard child of french and algonquin blood, so maybe i'm a lil bit biased] |
