| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp |
spanish was spoken on this continent long before english... and most spanish-speakers here are at least one half native american by blood..... gringo....   | ||
| Mikej |
That too is debatable. Not all explorers wrote or spoke of their explorations. Then there's that whole Bering Straight deal, and who came first, and what directions they came from, and so on and so forth. I think I'll vote for a land bridge and a submerged continent with a few aliens thrown in for hyperbole, regardless of what language aliens speak. Swiss cheese anyone? | ||
| Mikej |
ps, I was done with this thread, but I had to come back for the sandwich I left in the desk drawer. hi ho, hi ho, it's back to work I go,... | ||
| M1combat |
Maybe you missed my point... I didn't say I was worried about being forced to learn spanish... As a matter of fact I've considered it but only so I can use it if I go to Mexico  . When in rome... What I did say is that if you give a man a fish (spanish labeled signs etc...) then you feed him for a day. If you teach him to fish (or speak English) then you feed him for life. It's GOOD FOR IMMIGRANTS TO LEARN ENGLISH. It helps them compete for good jobs etc. Sorry you have such a closed mind and would rather see immigrants kept down by way of the fact that if you can't speak english, it's more difficult to get a good job. You think I'm being selfish... well guess what... It takes one to know one. I look at this from the direction of what's best for immigrants. Not myself (except for the free ride part... people should pull their own damn weight and quite frankly that's for them too. It's called character). What about the Washington Niggaz (and yeah, I mean niggaz, not the N word...)? I would have no trouble at all with the "Washington N's" just so long as black people had no trouble with it. I doubt that would be the case... But in the situation that was posted above, that's EXACTLY the case . I would have no RIGHT to be bothered by it. If I was in a position to make a difference and a lobby of black people came to me and said "Hey, we don't like that and you seem to be a person that can do something." I would. Just so long as there wasn't some vast majority of other black people telling me that they thought it was a good thing... You are correct Genesis when you say that there's no public burden when a spanish phone book is printed... However... There IS a public burden when I and my fellow Americans have to pay more in taxes and health care so that someone who wants to take advantage of a too liberal system can get by for free. My girlfriend is Indonesian and grew up with a mexican step-father... Guess what... She agrees with me. So does the rest of her family. Why? Because their ancestors came over from the old country (Indonesia, Spain and Mexico) and played the game. They have no respect what so ever for people who come over here looking to take advantage on OUR backs. Racism is not the issue here. Character is. If you want to come over here and live... Whether you're white, black, yellow or red... Please do so. I'll welcome you with open arms. But play by the rules so you don't make it harder for everyone else involved. Tramp - You just called me a Gringo??? Why? | ||
| Buellj79 |
I think i'll keep my mouth shut on this one. J | ||
| Tramp |
who said I called YOU a gringo, m1? jeepers!  | ||
| Frausty_void |
/me pats M1combat on the back. My sentiments exactly. | ||
| Tramp |
waitaminnit- this thread ISN'T about some guy who wants to switch to MAC? Hey-SEUSS, Gringos y Gringas! | ||
| M1combat |
"who said I called YOU a gringo, m1? " That's what the question marks were for and I figured it'd be prudent to not waste the extra posts asking "why?" so I just posted it there. If you didn't mean me then all's well . | ||
| Southern Marine |
Geez I'm almost sorry I started this thread. I think PC is being carried too far these days and I'm in agreement that if you want to live here in the United States, learn the language. As for being forced to learn a foreign language. Uhm, you really don't have a choice, they MAKE you learn one in school. If you don't take a forein language, no grades, some high schools, and college. Common courtesy, which is lacking these days, would tell us to be polite, make an effort to understand others. I had a French teacher that told our class, "You have to know French if you are going to France, they don't speak English, and they don't like it." That's when I spoke up, "Well, from my recent trips there, they understood my English well enough." I also added that I had been to many different countries and that I made an effort to learn some of the language in each, it's polite and it show's others that you care, that you don't place yourself above others. I found that with some, if you make the effort to learn their language, they open up more to you, of course, personality and how you approach them helps as well. The NCAA needs to spend more time worrying about the illegal use of performance enhancing drugs, recruiting violations, the equal distribution of funds to the schools, etc.. than worrying about whether or not someone's mascot is PC. Look, I'm offended that you would use a castrated turkey as a mascot, come on, a "Hokie" *(actually not my school, see MS State below ). Let's get real, how in the hell is that supposed to get you fired up? "Yeah, that's my school mascot, a castrated turkey!" And what's up with having a turtle as your mascot? Come ON. While we're at it, I say we petition the NCAA to force schools to change their mascot's to reflect the area that the school is located. For example, how about the "Miami Drugrunners" instead of the "Miami Hurricanes"? "UCLA Bruins" and "USC Trojans"? Let's get real here, One of the schools could be the "Cop Killers", and the other "Gang Bangers". How about "Mississippi State Rednecks" instead of the "Bulldogs"? Whoever heard of a Tiger in the south, unless it was in the zoo? It's more like the "Lousiana State Crawdad's". How about the "Alabama Cottonpickers"? Hey, at least Ole Miss got thiers right, the "Rebel", but guess what, people still don't like it. | ||
| Skyguy |
The world is gettng crowded. No matter what you do or say somone somewhere will take offense. Heres my personal favorite example of PC going way to far. Recently the famous womens riding group known as "Dykes on Bikes" applied for a trademark. The trademark was denied because of "The offensive nature" of it. Funny, they did not seem offended..... Until they were told they could not use it... Now they are sueing. More of our tax dollars at work. | ||
| Twowheeldream |
has the guy that coined the phrase "politically correct" been shot yet? | ||
| Bomber |
The world is gettng crowded. No matter what you do or say somone somewhere will take offense. Heres my personal favorite example of PC going way to far. this board, of late, is a great example of this utterance -- shame, ain't it? | ||
| Tramp |
"That too is debatable. Not all explorers wrote or spoke of their explorations. Then there's that whole Bering Straight deal, and who came first, and what directions they came from, and so on and so forth" welll... then everything in prehistory is debatable.... actually, there's very little debate that spanish was spoken here before english. has nothing to do with bering straits (note sp.) and prehistory, the spaniards were here in the 15th century at the latest, and there is/was NO recorded english settlement or exploration of the americas prior to that epoch. (Message edited by tramp on August 16, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
I don't see that it matters who was here first. That's why I own a Benelli... So I can defend where I'm AT. | ||
| Mikej |
But there was language and settlements and civilizations and villages and cities before the Spanish arrived, a whole lot of culture was going on. But, yes, everything in prehistory is debatable, and a whole lot of history as well since much of what was written in history is prone to interpretation. Then there's that whole verbal unwritten history and the debate of the viability of it all as well, some of which has won court battles in Canada, and some of which has lost. I've been many places where I didn't record my visit, I'm sure you have too.  Sure feels like a Friday today, maybe I'll have fish tonight. | ||
| Dagwood |
Wow. Anthropology on the BADWEB. Maybe I'm not wasting my education on the internet. Remember..."give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? I don't seem to recall a caveat saying "learn English". BTW: There are MANY more poor WHITE people living on free health care and not paying taxes than any other ethnic group in the US. | ||
| Mikej |
ps, and what about the French. It's somewhat documented that the French were in the northern part of the continent before the Spanish were since the Spanish somehow ended up farther south. Somewhere in Europe there must have been a whole lot of explorers and traders bumping shoulders with each other in various pubs and whatnot giving each other all sorts of mis-directions. It's also interesting that much of what is assumed is based upon where most of the diggings have been done, and those areas that have not been as extensively studied are deemed to have come later to civilization. Ethnocentrism at its finest me thinks. 'scuse me now whilst I finish this bowl of rice. | ||
| Mikej |
Oops, forgot the musical interlude: "Green grow the lilacs" - aka: gringo. Dagwood, caution, someone is about to ask you for a source for that data. | ||
| Mikej |
Apparently even the definition of "gringo" is debatable: http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/NOTES/GringoDefinition.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gringo Okay, I"m done, "goodnight everybody" | ||
| Tramp |
mike- you missed the point entirely. a badwebber's pissed about spanish being given dang-near-equal billing to english, here in america, and my point is that spanish was definitely here before english. the precedence of spanish to english, in the americas, which is unrefuted, is my point. modern english (which is a germanic language) is a much much younger language, to boot. spanish was being spoken in much of europe long before modern english existed.... | ||
| Buelluk |
Tramp, What do you mean by modern English, what is the cut off date for that, I would assume that medieval Spanish is subtly different to modern Spanish...unless of course by modern English you are talking about American English However I agree with you about the extent of Spanish exploration and establishment in the US, they were rssident, in forts and missions at least, over a pretty large percentage of the current contiguous 48 well before the original 13 states got settled. Another point of interest, I was looking into Australian citizenship requirements this morning ,and their rules state that English is the language to be used once you become a citizen . Myself, I treat myself as a European ! | ||
| Mikej |
Nope, didn't miss the point at all, was just throwing some tangents out there to defuse the tempers a bit, kind of like you did elsewhere on the site in the pre-profile epoch. I remember once when I lived in SoCalif going into a Santa Ana grocery store looking for a jar of Mexican pickles. I was the only one in the place that was speaking english, and the only thing in the store that had any english on it at all was the cash register name tag and the cash being exchanged at check-out. Finally found the pickles, bungied them to the bike, and headed back to Costa Mesa. Never did have any of them there pickles, they were a special request for someone else. But in any case all language is fluid. Had someone tell me recently that all Cubans are hispanic, never argue with a Puerto Rican about who is and who is not hispanic.  I was told the matter was decided in New Berlin the month before. Had something to do with one of the Bachelor/Bachelorette shows on TV somehow, I'm still confused about the connection. In the mean time I'm looking for a Jamaican who lived in Cuba to tell them they're hispanic according to a Puerto Rican. I'm probably just digging a hole to bury myself in here so I'll just zip my partially Swiss lips and side step out of here.   (hmmm, the spill checkyr styll seams to ba brokun) | ||
| Outrider |
Mike...chances are they were just playing possum with you at that grocery store. They just didn't want to be bothered with you. LOL | ||
| Outrider |
This is pretty good! A US Navy Admiral was attending a Naval conference that included admirals from the US, English, Canadian, Australian, and French naval forces. At a cocktail reception, he found himself standing with a group of half dozen or so officers that included personnel from most of the countries. Everyone was chatting in English as they sipped their drinks but a French admiral suddenly complained that, whereas Europeans learn many languages, Americans learn only English. He then asked: "Why is it that we always have to speak English in these conferences rather than speaking French?" Without hesitating, the American Admiral replied: "Maybe it's because the Brits, Canadians, Aussies, and Americans arranged it so you wouldn't have to speak German." It got so quiet, you could have heard a pin drop. A little humor goes a long way to lighten things up, eh?  | ||
| M1combat |
LOL . "BTW: There are MANY more poor WHITE people living on free health care and not paying taxes than any other ethnic group in the US." Yeah? They should get off their asses and work too as long as they aren't certifiably disabled. As I said... It's not a race issue. It's a character issue . I'm not mad about Spanish being given dang near equal billing here as English Tramp (if you were talking about me ). I'm mad that the American society has lost the wisdom of the fish statement that I made above. I assure you... if Spanish becomes the dominant language in the US I'll learn it. Why? Because it'll help me in my personal and professional life. That's why imigrants (of all types) should learn English. It helps THEM. Not me... It actually makes MY life more difficult by way of there being more people who could compete with me when I go looking for a job. Granted, I happen to have a secure job and some reasonably rare skills but that's not the point. It's good for immigrants to learn English for their OWN sake. "Remember..."give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? I don't seem to recall a caveat saying "learn English". " Correct... but it makes the life of the immigrant easier if he/she does learn English. It's not a requirement in MY book at the least... It DOES make their lives better though. That's the angle I'm coming from. Not racism. It has nothing to do with race, creed, nationality, religion or color. It has to do with making yourself competitive in a job market and a social environment. Sure there are many jobs that can be had if you only speak spanish/hmong/french or whatever. But if you learn English in America... More possibilities open up. The liberal policy makers of our time know this. Why do they continue to place their thumb directly on top of the immigrants by way of allowing them to remain un-competitive in a predominantly English speaking society all in the name of "helping" them? For the same reason they say that guns kill people... For the same reason that they would rather you work for minimum wage AND collect a government check... To quote some of my favorite song lyrics in a song by "Rage Against the Machine"... "WAKE UP!" How about one of my other favorites from "System of a Down"... "They're trying to build a prison... For you and me to live in." You think social engineering isn't the reason? Could it be that on the surface it sounds all warm and fuzzy but in reality it opresses the masses and gets votes? Maybe... | ||
| Tramp |
Buelluk said: "Tramp, What do you mean by modern English, what is the cut off date for that, I would assume that medieval Spanish is subtly different to modern Spanish... (buelluk- 'modern english' is not an expression of any subtle gradient. it's a descriptor for late angle-ish german as spoken long after the angles became the nominate linguistic tribe of britain and absorbed some of the peeminent ambient tongues, such as celt, norman, and saxon. actually, every word in modern english that begins with the sk' sound, regardless of spelling, was impressed from the danes unless of course by modern English you are talking about American English again, no, buelluk, i mean 'modern english', which is not a quaint term but ratrher a definitive nomer of the english which both you and i and our great-great-great grandparents speak/spoke....of course, we yanks speak a much cleaner, vowel-rich version fortified by the italian, irish, scandinavian and german inflections of our nominate immigrants, but that's an entirely different story However I agree with you about the extent of Spanish exploration and establishment in the US, they were rssident, in forts and missions at least, over a pretty large percentage of the current contiguous 48 well before the original 13 states got settled. thanks, but it's not a point of opinion on which to agree or disagree. historic fact, that is, facts relating to points in actual 'history' are well-corroborated by linguistic clues and calender events, in our own english & roman ancestries, well-marked by even the early 'easter calenders', amongst others Another point of interest, I was looking into Australian citizenship requirements this morning ,and their rules state that English is the language to be used once you become a citizen . welll, being australia actually uses currency that has the queen mum's mug on it, that makes sense. thankfully we yanks got out of that subserviant habit a couple hundred years ago, no longer being subject to much of anything or anyone at all Myself, I treat myself as a European ! i treat myself as often as possible- i'm a native-born american, dual-resident european/american who is familiar with the very cool commonwealth tradition that aussies and kiwis enjoy, which i believe is inversely honoured, whereby commonwealthers can stay and work in the UK for up to two straight years at a time. i had 'em as ski/snowboard students in eurpope. pretty sure you can do the same in australia | ||
| Buellj79 |
BTW: There are MANY more poor WHITE people living on free health care and not paying taxes than any other ethnic group in the US. Yes, and we fellow working white folk call them White Trash. Long live the mullet  J | ||
| CJXB |
badwebber's pissed about spanish being given dang-near-equal billing to english, here in america, Dang near, that's not very good english and who was pissed I must have missed that, didn't seem any badwebber was pissed ??! I don't see Spanish as being close to equal to English, and I agree being able to speak English opens up a lot more opportunities for folks than not being able to speak it !! Sheessh !! | ||
| Dagwood |
M1combat wrote: "But if you learn English in America... More possibilities open up. The liberal policy makers of our time know this." Don, it's not liberal policy makers that have pushed for the English Only Initiatives in schools. Its the conservative lily white republicans who are keeping immigrants in this country down. Systematic denial of work visas, non existent worker protection rights, NO HEALTH CARE, the list goes on. I agree with your basic premise Don, that learning English in a predominately English speaking country is a smart thing to do for a myriad of reasons. It's just that forcing a people, any people to conform to what the dominant (read more powerful) culture thinks is right or moral or just or patriotic is, by definition Fascist. I just don't believe that anyone should force their views on anyone else. Sorry, no cool song lyrics come to mind...} |
