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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » WAY TOO rich of a mixture « Previous Next »

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Xb_blaster
Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2019 - 12:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a 2007 XB12SCG with a K&N air filter and a Jardine RT-1 exhaust. I am running the program from Buelltooth for this motorcycle and this specific set up. Now both the stock map and the Buelltooth both run REALLY rich. The Denver area seems unwilling to work on this bike for a dyno, except 1 place but to the tune of $400 for a dyno. I was wondering/hoping that I could use some type of fuel management system that could autotune this and would be effective for future mods to the engine. I've had this bike for a year and a half and been able to ride it 600 miles in that time due to down time. Please help.
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Smorris
Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2019 - 12:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Any codes? Seems to be something not right. "Auto;-tuner" would be trying to cover it up . There is an underlying problem
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Xb_blaster
Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2019 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No codes. The not right part is that my mixture is way too rich. Not sure on how to lean my mixture, not interested in cover ups. Just want to have it fixed so I can ride. I don't want to pay $400 when paying a little more would allow me to use different maps on the fly.
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Akbuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 03, 2019 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A stock ECM should (IIRC) be able to cope with the changes you have made. So, IF all is well, the stock map should work.

An extremely rich mixture means a problem somewhere else. If a sensor is in pre-fail mode, where it is giving bad info but is not so flawed as to throw a code, that could be an issue. And did the situation come on all at once, or over time?

First thought is to check the injectors, and make sure they are not leaking. Anything partially blocking airflow to/from the engine?

Hope this helps, Dave
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2019 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What is your AFV number ?
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2019 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What is your AFV number indicating
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Xb_blaster
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 07:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry this took awhile, death in the family. Not to sure about how it came on. I bought the bike last year and it smelled rich when I bought it. It has sat most of the time I've owned because I had to replace the rocker box seal. Once that was fixed the fuel smell was still there. I'll have to look into checking the injectors. There is no blockage of airflow. Once I get off work I'll get the AFV number. What is the AFV so I know for future reference. I'm assuming it can be checked by my Buelltooth.
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Akbuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry for your loss. Always a difficult situation.
Don't have a service manual that covers your model. On my X-1, the ECM fuel program has 2 'modes', open loop and closed loop. If the ECM sees small changes in throttle changes and RPM changes, the ECM decides you are cruising, and pays a great deal of attention the 02 sensor. It then adjusts the entire fuel map rich or lean as needed. This is the Adaptive Fuel Value, or AFV. The altitude in Denver, for example, will need a leaner mixture than a city at sea level.

So, the ideal, or normal, AFV would be 100. In Denver on a hot day, the AFV might change to the low to middle 90's. Cold air at sea level might be in the 105 range.

So, if you have an AFV of, say 124, something is causing that. A reset to 100, and riding for a while and see how it acts, and checking to see if the AFV changes would be in order.

The above applies to my tuber fuel system; you have the next generation,which may be somewhat different.

Hope this helps, Dave
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

1) Things to check for with engine cold check the IAT compared to the ET. They should be no more than 10 deg between them. 2) Intake leak to the throttle body seals would cause the ECM to add more fuel.(known issue with these bikes) order the blue silicone ones from ST Paul's Harley. 3) Fuel injectors O-rings and dirty sticking fuel injector pintle.(would require new/clean injectors. 4) bad O2 sensor ( you can look at a O2 sensor same as you would looking at spark plug. 5) Fouled spark plugs.( Pull both of them and inspect) 5) TPS may need to be reset. 6) timing to retarded. 7) weak spark cause by coil or bad spark plugs, coil, or bad plug wires. Don't throw any parts away until you solve the problem. I don't like throwing parts at a problem but I'm guilty of that. 8) inspect injector wires for lumps,rubbing etc.. also inspect the injectors connectors to the injectors. I use ECM Droid with a Buell tooth.
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Xb_blaster
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Dave that was a great explanation. Gabby duck, I haven't gotten into anything yet because I am weighing my options but I am assuming my spark plugs are fouled also I had a nightmare situation with the TPS but I hope that is all good. Timing to retarded? Do you mean my timing needs to be retarded? Thanks for the list, this will help alot. Not sure when I will get a chance to tear into, hopefully next week or the week after.
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 07:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Make sure your bikes timing is per manufacturer specifications. I would go after the throttle body seals and at the same time take care of the dogs injectors. A question I have to you is when the bike is first Crank up engine cold how is the idle? If it's good then gets bad after warming up I would definitely suspect the intake seals. If course make sure your plugs are cleaned before this test.
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Akbuell
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You are welcome. Glad it was understandable.

"Nightmare situation with the TPS" . . . .

A TPS calibration should be high on the list of things to check first. The TPS is basically a rheostat that varies a 5V reference signal from the ECM, based on throttle position. 0.5ish volts closed, to something close to 5V at wide open ( tuber numbers) sent back to the ECM. The fuel map is written with zero fuel delivered at zero volts, increasing fuel at increasing volts.

The fully closed TPS on a bike may have a closed voltage of, say, 0.4V. The TPS reset "tells" the ECM that a voltage 0.4V is really 0.00V, on that bike, and applies that correction to the fuel map.

A long way of saying that a bad TPS calibration can/will skew the entire fuel map off. Might be enough in your case to cause the rich condition. If you have changed the TPS, the ECM, or changed the fuel map, a TPS reset is required.

Hope this helps, Dave
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Tpehak
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Man, that TPS issue sucks. That's why modern motorcycles have two TPS working together. The system analyses signals from both TPS and always compares them. Once it sees difference between signals it knows exactly one TPS is bad and sends error message so you can fix it.
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Haha Dogs ? ( I haven't a clue how I put that in the above paragraph) Motion pro makes a decent fuel injector tool for cleaning injectors. If you like send them to me and I can clean them for free. You can order new ones from St Paul's Harley Davidson. Front injector is different from rear injector. Look at the color as you pull them out of the throttle body and the injectors location front or rear
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Tpehak
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No need to look the color, just look at the nozzle, the injector nozzle hole has to be faced toward engine valve - this is how you figure out where to stick the injector.
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Agree but I used the colors just like on a old Dell computer.By the way my injector plugs say Ford on them
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I just finished putting on a front isolator mount on my 09 Ulysses. Dang it's amazing I can now see without all the vibration in the mirrors.Took about 20 minutes to remove and install.
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Xb_blaster
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 08:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As far as starting, it wouldn't without opening the throttle a little. But when I did that only 1 cylinder would fire (I used to have a Blast and I know that sound and feel of 1 cylinder). I have no idea which cylinder it was. I have not tried since the issue began.
When I loaded the map, I did a TPS reset so I don't think its that. The nightmare was that I had somehow not connected my ignition coils all the way and some how become disconnected and I thought it was the TPS. But the whole thing was a nightmare.
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Akbuell
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2019 - 02:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK, some questions answered. As simple as a TPS reset is, won't hurt to do it again.
Another fairly simple check, per my '08 XB manual, is to check the injectors for leakage.

Remove the air box cover and air filter so you can see into the throttle body. With the stop/run switch to run, turn the key on for 2 sec, then off for 2 sec. Repeat 5 times. Then open the throttle and look into the manifold with a strong light. If there is any evidence of raw fuel, replace the injectors. Or have them overhauled.

By the way, a clogged injector will/can result in a rich condition. Counterintuitive, I know, but if I understand the process correctly - A clogged or dirty injector sprays a stream of fuel, not a mist. The individual drops of gasoline don't have enough surface area to burn cleanly in the time allotted, resulting in unburned fuel. I.E. a rich situation.

Hope this helps, Dave
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