| Author | Message | ||
     Jocklandjohn |
Some of you may be interested in this (if you are interested in the subject of breathers on v-twins) - excellent pictures with it: http://www.visi.com/~norton/harley/ | ||
| Tommyboy |
So, first day out after installing a kooks header and muffler, race ECM, and race kit air cleaner on my 01 x1 I have a couple of things to say: runs like a completely different bike (and a better one at that)  its real loud, too loud  has much better throttle response and low to mid range power (IMHO) spitting oil all over my air cleaner got me my first speeding ticket in 20 years (seven lakes drive in harriman park ny) So aside from traffic court, I need help with the following: Do I have any options for a quieter muffler on the kooks header? Has anyone had problems with the police because of the sound of the kooks set up? What's the simplest catch can for the X1? Thanks in advance, tommyboy | ||
| Ccryder |
Tom: Look here at what I did on my 00' X-1 Race Stripe. X-1 breather | ||
| Wet4uracing |
A funny thing happened to my S1w the other day,I fell off it! The reason ,apparently leaving the fuel turned on with a full tank,leaked past the needle and seat(carby)and into the engine.Petrol and engine oil then softened the seal to the primary drive,(thus pressure washing the primary and gearbox with fuel and engine oil)this inturn softened the countershaft sprocket seal and proceded to bath the chain in oil.Also the gearbox breather tube sprayed oil and petrol all over my back wheel!By this time Im about 2 blocks from home and trying to negotiate a roundabout!So I suggest you all check if your gearbox breather is vented to acatch tank...........Oh yeah dont leave your fuel tap on! | ||
| Aikigecko |
Ok I'm getting a breather to replace the into the carb/airbox mess that the blast comes with My question is where do I connect it to? The hose straight out of the engine or should I just put it on the end of the hose that used to lead to the carb. tnx Tony | ||
| Bigfanof6 |
Please... I installed my new Daytona Boss a couple of weeks ago, along with a K and N filter in the stock bread box. Now I just gotta get rid of the bread box. I'm looking at the Force, the Buell C/F filter, and the S and S filter. Has anybody tried the S and S? It is considerably cheaper than the rest. I need suggestions, reccomendations, folks. I'm ready to purchase, but would very much like the help of those of you that have already done so. Thanks very much for your help. Chris | ||
| Loki |
Chris, Just a small hint here. The BOSS was a byproduct of hanging a FORCE Sidewinder on an X1. The two compliment each other real well. The Boss will love just about any free flowing intake set-up. So it will boil down to what you like hanging on your bike. Loki -one who has a Boss and Sidewinder on his M2. Looking fwd to hanging a cf Racewinder on the bike now. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
the TRUTH about breathers, according to me (with some help from the service manual!) | ||
| Bigfanof6 |
Okay, Loki, I'll bite... What's a C/F Racewinder? Pictures? I gotta tell you, I'm leaning towards the Sidewinder, but the S&S filter is less than half the price, and still loses the bread box. I doubt if the price includes a K&N filter, which is another 30 clams, but that's still cheap. I'm so confused... Chris | ||
| Pbuckley |
After realizing that breather puke does not drain off once it gets to the breather bolts (thanks to the now famous illustration posted over and over by Jose Q), I have decided to tee directly off both breather bolts. Bottom Loop - For Puke With a short length of clear tubing connecting the bottom tee outlets (making sure it loops down) I have a place for the puke to accumulate and I can see when I need to drain it by pulling off the hose from one of the tees. Top Loop - For Breathing With black hose loop up between the top tee outlets and install some where in between a Drag Specialties DS-289073 dual inlet breather filter element (about $12). Advantages -Each breather has full flow to filter and is not choked down to one 3/8" hose as many puke cans are. -If any puke does decide to take the top loop it will drain down to the bottom loop while the bike is resting. -You get to see the puke in the bottom loop and you can be more aware of the conditions that put it there. -It's cheap. -It's adaptable. Help/Problem -The tees in addition to the length of the breather bolt do cause the hoses to protrude a bit from the frame of the bike. Does anyone know of a double outlet banjo bolt that can take the place of the breather bolt and tee combination? I have my breather filter inside the air box because I believe the negative pressure there helps suck the puke out of the breather passages, but you don't have to. If anyone makes any money off these ideas I expect 1/2 (to pay for the mods I can't afford), otherwise feel free to copy. Open to suggestions. pbuckley | ||
| Reepicheep |
I was thinking a similiar thing about a clear tube with a bolt threaded in the bottom as a catch can. Easy to hide, easy to check, easy to drain. My only concern is if it will hold up to the heat. No matter where you route it, it is going to get pretty hot. And I don't know how much the two loops will help you... the passage through the body of the banjo bolt will probably remain the biggest restriction. Bill | ||
| Bandm |
Jose, What are your thoughts on this? http://www.economyphonecards.com/cp001.html Mark | ||
| Javahed |
OK, I've been reading about how my bike is bulemic and how I'm going need to install some type of puke catching device. Disheartening to say the least. Then I come across these products: The PowerVent by Doherty Machine and these Universal Krank Vents and Race, Custom Krank Vent They looked like great ideas, only problem was the price. I thought about one way valves, went to a filter/valve/performance application piping shop and found some one way valves for the low low price of $4 each!!! The valves are simply brass fittings with a spring and ball bearing inside. Gasses push the ball bearing onto the spring and escape out, but suction allows the spring to push the bearing back into place -- blocking all air backflow. I put one on each puke tube in my 2000 X1's airbox (gutted with just a K&N kit). IMHO, I feel I should get the same results as from the aformentioned products, while saving a ton of money. Has anyone tried this? Anyone predict any future bad effects from this? Thanks a bunch! Dan | ||
| Chuck |
Hey Dan, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to use "check" valves in this application. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I'm wrong . . . but I think that our motors (because of their common crankpin design) also draw air in through the breather bolts . . . | ||
| Javahed |
I was wondering about that. An article from Easyriders Magazine - January 2000 issue stated........ "When the pistons in our motors are travelling down (either the power or intake stroke) air from under the pistons is pushed out of the breather vent, and this is good. The problem is on the up-stroke. When the pistons are moving up our cylinders, they suck air back in through the breather vent and pressurize the lower end. This causes the rings to flutter and not seal properly, creating blow-by and loss of horsepower. The increased pressure in the bottom end is one of the main causes of blown cylinder gaskets. The more performance-oriented a motor is, the greater the need for effective breathing. The PowerVent by Doherty Machine is a one-way valve that attaches to the breather vent. On the down stroke, the PowerVent allows the air under the pistons to escape, but on the up-stroke the PowerVent valve closes and creates a vacuum under the pistons. This stabilizes the rings and provides a good seal. Throttle response and horsepower go up; it's as simple as that!" After reading that and some more info from Doherty Machine's website, I decided to go with the check valves. I've only driven about 2 miles with 'em on (been installing a V&H's slip on), but all seems to be working well. If my engine implodes (ha ha - joking, I hope) I'll let ya'll know. If this is indeed a definite bad idea, please let me know before I kill my ride. Thanks! Dan | ||
| Hans |
Dan, I used my big cheesehead and out came: NONSENSE. As long as the pistons go up and suck they are not building up pressure. However, if those one way valves will create a small overall decrease in pressure in the carter (Hans, what do you mean by "carter"? Blake), and that is easy to understand, the springs will still dance up and down in their grooves at the end of each stroke because of their inertia. The one way umbrella valves in the rockerboxes have the same kind of function except that they are not cutting off air/oil flow through the passages by wich engine oil from the rockers is sucked into their returning canals. It is a balanced system and drilling out one of these oil return passages a little bit is a prooven way to diminish oil puking from the breathers. You can`t suck fluid from a closed bottle and only with difficulty if there is some air in that bottle. The same happens when an engine is running lean because of a clogged tank vent. Dorothies` valve is preventing the oil return suction more or less. Hans. | ||
| Blake |
I agree with Hans. You already have one-way valves in the breather circuit, the umbrella valves. Aaron did tests and an article for Battle 2Win that showed that the aftermarket breather gizmos were all bogus. And has Jose Q. astutely points out, there just ain't no way for any liquid, be it oil, water, whatever, to return to the engine after it has passed the umbrella valves. The engine does not and cannot suck fresh air into the crankcase. If there were no blowby, the crankcase would, for piston upstrokes, hold a vaccuum. There is no "air" in the crankcase. It is ALL blowby (exhaust, oil mist, and unburned hydrocarbons). If you have severe amounts of oil exiting your breather consider the following... 1. Overfilling the oil will lead to increased breather oil pukage. Run with 2 qts of oil, or with the level on the dipstick no higher than halfway between the full and low marks. Check oil level when the bike is warm and immediately after turning it off. 2. Some have reported that switching to a good wuality synthetic oil significantly reduced oil consumption. 3. Bucking the EPA and venting the breather to atmosphere has almost always helped reduce pukage and does much to help your engine's conbustion chamber. 4. If none of the above help, you may have poor ring to cyl wall seating. Consider having your rings changed and cylinders honed and try breaking in the engine again. Good luck, let us know what happens. Blake | ||
| Javahed |
I think you guys are right. I had no blowby problems to begine with, so the valves are off. FYI -- The engine ran no different with them on, performance wise, but the valves themselves made a pretty unusual noise. Thanks for the advice, glad I didn't drop the cash on the expensive ones. Thanks! Dan | ||
| Leeaw |
Just FYI, after dealing with the Sidewinder filter misting oil on rear fender for the past year, I reduced the amount of oil in the tank down to about 1/2 way up the dip stick instead of being at the max. No more oil whatsoever coming out of the breathers. | ||
| Aaron |
Okay, since my old web site is no more, this stuff needs a new home ... The first time I did this was on my S1 only, Don Casto and I spent several hours testing both the Hayden and Spyke brand devices. The results were published in Battle2win awhile back. We also did some other things trying to influence the power of the bike with the breathers, like plugging them, and connecting a vacuum pump. Bottom line, the only thing that really gave a result was the act of pulling them out of the intake stream. That gave a nice 1 to 2hp gain over a wide rpm range. Nothing else seemed to matter at all. That article generated quite a response from one of the manufacturers, ET Performance, who apparently makes the Spyke device. They really took exception to it. So in the interest of fairness, I retested the Spyke device on 4 bikes. Here are the results of that testing. It's very important to understand that dyno results are not 100% repeatable. The temperature of the motor, and the "heat soak" effect, can really play hell with the repeatability. When you're looking for potentially very small differences, the only solution I've found is lots and lots of pulls, playing the heat soak rythym. That's a whole other discussion, though. Here I'll post enough sheets that you can see the range of results in each configuration. One of the nice things about putting the results here, versus Battle2win, is I can post a whole lot more data. Something else I'd like to point out, too, is that you have to pay attention and be careful when you're doing this kind of testing to keep from being fooled. For example, I had a guy write to me and tell me how he got 1-2hp with a krank vent device. When I queried him about his testing procedures, it turned out he had done some baseline pulls, then pulled the breather from the air cleaner and attached the Spyke device and did some more pulls. So he inadvertently changed 3 things: he removed the blow-by from the intake, left the hole in the air cleaner thereby allowing more air into the air box, and attached the device. He had no idea which of the 3 things changed his power, yet he was crediting the vent device! One last note and then we're on to the results. Several people have tried to make the claim that even though it doesn't show up on the dyno, their engine revs up quicker with the device. That is total BS, folks. A Dynojet like this one literally measures how long it takes to spin up the drum. If it spins up faster, it'll show more torque and hp, period. Okay, enough background, here are the results ...  Here are all the baseline pulls on my '99 M2, no breather check valve in place other than the factory umbrella valves. The peak power ranges from 84.1 up to 85.4. Mikuni and a Bullett muffler and an air cleaner, that's it (not bad for a near-stock M2, eh? It's done a lot of dyno time).  Here are all the pulls I did on the same bike, same day, with the Spyke device in place. The power varies from 83.5 up to 84.8.  Blue: With Spyke Device Red: Without Spyke device And of course, this the best pull from each configuration, overlaid onto the same chart. Yeah, I know, it *looks* like the bike ran a tad better without the device, but it didn't, this is normal variation. I guarantee you if I did enough pulls with the device, and played the heat soak just right, I could've equaled the other results. This is a tie.  Here are all the baseline pulls on my '96 S2. The power varies from 85.9 up to 87.1. Pretty fair for an S2 ... this bike has Brian's stage 1 work on the stock Sportster heads, a set of N4 (Lightning) cams, a race kit module, and a V&H muffler. Stock CV carb.  Here are all the pulls I did on the same bike, same day, with the Spyke device in place. The power varies from 84.7 up to 87.4.  Blue: With Spyke device Red: Without Spyke device This the best pull from each configuration, overlaid onto the same chart. Again, it's a dead heat.  Here are all the baseline pulls on my '96 S1. The power varies from 92.6 up to 95.3.  Here are all the pulls I did on the same bike, same day, with the Spyke device in place. Pulls 38 and 43 are omitted, because the tach pickup screwed up and if I put those on the chart, I can't show rpm and torque. They were not as good as pull # 42. The power varies from 93.7 up to 95.1.  Blue: Without Spyke Device Red: With Spyke device (sorry for the color inversion vs. the other results) This the best pull from each configuration, overlaid onto the same chart. Again, it's a dead heat. I didn't actually use the "best" baseline pull, this one has a tad less peak hp but a little nicer curve.  Here are all the baseline pulls on my '90 FXR. This is a little different animal from a Buell, in that it breathes off the lower end using a timed breather gear. I don't believe there's actually a check valve in place. There are only 3 "baseline" pulls because this was a tune-up, and I did all my tuning that day with the device in place. Only towards the end, when I had it all tuned up, did I remove the Spyke device for comparison purposes. As you can see, the power varies from 85.7 to 86.9. This is a classic "heat soak" set, too ... notice how the first one is the best, then they fall off. Let it cool for 7-8 minutes and do this again, and once again the first one will be far and away the best. Torquey somebitch, huh? Has Brian's stage 1 work with a Crane 316 & Mikuni. I've learned a few tricks for generating legible dyno sheets from Winpep, too.  Here are all the pulls I did on the same bike, same day, in the final tuning configuration, with the Spyke device in place. The power varies from 86.2 up to 86.6.  Blue: With Spyke Device Red: Without Spyke device This the best pull from each configuration, overlaid onto the same chart. Again, it's a dead heat. Bottom line here, folks, I tried my damndest, I can't find power with these devices. I know that pisses some people off. All I have to say is "show me". Don't just show me a result, either, show me procedures and ranges of results. AW | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Excellent work, Aaron. | ||
| S2carl |
Aaron Cross post from main board ...................................... Also, something to make you smile, they did a test on the Krank Vent, said it actually lost power on the dyno. When they approached the company, they were told that the vent was designed to prevent blown rocker box gaskets in early-evo twins before they had the umbrella valve. The mags take on it, "A Krank vent is thus a waste on money when fitted to anything but an early Evo." Thought you'd get a chuckle out of that. Carl | ||
| Jima4media |
Aaron, Great work! I was considering a Spyke vent a while back, but didn't have any facts to base the decision on. I finally decided on the Forcewinder, which does a nice clean job of routing the breathers back into the intake. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you have replaced the stock box with a forcewinder or similiar, and want a simple compact solution for the breather / catch can problem, here is what I did. It needs a little dress up still, and I don't know if the stainless steel sleeves will stay (and the flash made them look much worse then in real life). It has worked pretty well for the first few hundred miles I have had it installed. It uses a neat little filter with nipples on both ends that they had at a local hole in the wall harley shop, a couple tees, and a little extra tubing. The rest was done with all stock parts from the airbox pull.  I cable tied everything snug except one end of the loop that goes around the bottom. This makes it work like a simple catch can, it is easy as can be to pull, drain, and push back on. Here is what came out of it after 200 miles immediately after replacing the tranny fluid (which is when I suspect puking would be worse as things find their own level)...  Let me know if anyone needs a contact for that filter, it should not be tough to find. Bill | ||
| Aaron |
Bill: nice simple clean solution, I like it. I don't understand the connection to tranny fluid, though. | ||
| Reepicheep |
There isn't one... I was confused. For some reason I was thinking (or not thinking as in this case) that excess tranny fluid would puke through the breathers. Brain fart. Excess engine oil will, but not tranny fluid. Not thinking... Bill | ||
| Blake |
Wow, nice breather setup, and that floral pattern on the paper towel... Fancy! | ||
| Henrik |
Nice set-up; where did you get the "Ts" to screw into the head breather bolt holes? Are they standard T-fittings? Henrik | ||
| Reepicheep |
I got the tees at Napa... the breather hose a standard automotive part, and they have the brass T's for them. Napa had the braided steel that slips over the tubing as well... but it was a hassle to put on and I think it looks a little gaudy. The upper loop is made with elbows that came from the stock airbox, I think I had to cut one stock tube. A 1.5" section of tube joins the breather bolt to the end of the T. I kept it as short as possible to keep everything as out of the way as possible. The filter came from "Od's Cycle Shop" near Dayton... a little hole in the wall Harley place. They have a Buell there that they drag race and have done some serious trickery on... but they are mainly a harley shop. I suspect custom chrome has them... | ||
| Sem1 |
Bill: nice set-up indeed; very clever! I would like to duplicate your set-up on my S1W since I am not happy with the way I did it on Saturday when I installed the Forcewinder. However, I have one problem: How do I remove the rear breather bolt that has the 90 degree elbow? It does not clear the frame when I attempt to remove it. Cheers, Semi |
