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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » 2009 XB12R Firebolt won't turn over. « Previous Next »

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Redwingblackbird
Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hello,

I seriously spent 15-20 min trying to read various possible issues, but because I'm sad, I made an account so I can ask anyway. Please be patient with me.

I have a stock 2009 XB12R Firebolt. I'm the second owner. I do not think it has ever been modified. I bought it in its break in period as the previous owner felt he wasted his money and wasn't really into two wheels after all. I've put nearly all of it's 13,500 miles on it so I'm confident when I say its never given me grief ever. (Had it 2yrs now.)

Here's my sad story.

While commuting to work the v-twin light that's yellow that turns on while you hear the whine came on. (I call this the fuel injection light but I don't know if that's correct.)

I was 5+ miles from my exit ramp. I figured when I get to the stop light I'd attempt to shut it off and try again. I chalked it up to a fluke. As I pulled up to the stop light I noticed my speedometer and tachometer were at zero.

I turned her off, and she wouldn't turn over. I pushed it into a grassy area with dry/hard soil and called my roadside assistance.

While waiting I tried numerous times to get it to start to no avail.

The v-twin light, neutral light, & the red oil light all do their thing and it clicks like it wants to start, but nothing happens. The whine happens too, but its heart won't beat.The tach/speedo work again.

I took it to the shop that lives for sportbikes but they felt it was too Harley for any of their techs & I was declined.

A couple guys there and a friend gave me a number of a guy who knows a guy sort of thing.

I reached out to an indie Harley master tech but he hasn't returned any communication.

I'm feeling unloved.

I do have a Harley dealer who used to sell Buells in my town but my previous boss was raped there with his touring model Harley, so I'm not feeling confident about taking it there, but it may be the only way.

I learned to do my own mileage services but I'm not a higher arts guy...my gut says this will be trial by fire.

I'm so freakin bummed. If I miss summer I might cry. I love this damn bike.
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Froggy
Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 08:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The V Twin light is the check engine light, it works basically the same way as it does on cars, if it comes on while riding you have a problem.

You can check the code that is triggering the light, it might steer you in the right direction. Here is how you do it, don't need anything fancy, a flathead screwdriver can be used to jump the pins - http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=142838&post=2360318#POST2360318
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Froggy
Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

and it clicks like it wants to start, but nothing happens




Is this a single click or a rapid machine gun click? Single click might mean an issue with a relay, or possibly the starter motor, but neither of those will cause the check engine light to come on.

Rapid clicking means the bike does not have enough power (dead battery), and it can't keep the starter solenoid engaged.
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Hogs
Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

dead battery Amperage,Would loose all power after awhile no more start or anything... Could be battery,or charging system or both...

Not enough juice to the Ecm etc ..they dont like it.
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 02:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bad battery, loose battery terminal bolts, check please let us know what trouble code you have.
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Akbuell
Posted on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 08:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I believe a key is that the speedo and tach were at zero. Tells me there is not enough electrical power to run the bike.

Is this the original battery? If so, that would be where I would start. Then check and confirm battery cables (both ends) connectors are clean and tight. With a new or known good battery, it may start and run. If it does, check for 13.5V or so at 2k rpm at the battery terminals.

Once confident in the battery and its connections, then check the trouble codes.

A service manual, and in the case of the '08 and up bikes an electrical service manual is just about mandatory.

Let us know how it goes. Hope this helps, Dave
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 09:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Doesn't sound like a huge problem. Maybe just a bad ground at the battery terminal, maybe a bad battery, maybe a bad stator, maybe a bad voltage regulator, most likely a bad '77' connector.

Do not connect the motorcycle to a car with jumper cables while the car is running, it can fry your voltage regulator. It's fine to hook it up to a car that is NOT running and just use the car battery power to jump the bike.

There is a fairly straightforward diagnostic process that can get you pretty far towards finding the problem, but it will require a multimeter and a little care and expertise (you can accidentally weld a wrench to a frame if you aren't careful working with the battery). But again, fairly basic mechanics.

Are you going to try and do it yourself? If so we can walk you through some tests and interpret the results.
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Redwingblackbird
Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hello everyone,

I wanted to thank you all for your help so far. I read everyone of your posts and I appreciate that everyone's trying to get me back on the road.

I'm trying to sell my house so that's taking up a lot of my attention.

I was reading some comments here about the battery. It is/was the original battery to my knowledge so I figured a new one was a good place to start anyway.

I put it in yesterday evening. Immediately the bike started, and quicker than before. I guess I never realized the brief pause when I hit the start button wasn't natural since it's all I ever known.

I rode it briefly around my back yard because I was with my 3yr old daughter as my wife wasn't home yet. I thought everything was cool.

I decided after some stressful stuff yesterday, I'd go get a six pack. I decided I'd go on the beer run with my bike so I could test it out. As I won't ride after I start drinking. I grabbed my backpack and headed out.

The bike did all the usual things...lights...whine...and started like a champ. I went about 200 feet down the road and the check engine light (now I know what that light is LOL) came on. I put her back in the garage.

At least half my problem is fixed now.

Oh, and those who asked, before when it wouldn't start it was the machine gun style clicking if I remember correctly. Anyway, with the new battery that is no longer an issue.

For the link provided that shows me how to get my diagnostic codes, where is this wire I'm supposed to short out at? Since I'm learning, I don't know where to find it.

Also, I picked up the service manual, but I don't have an electrical one yet. I found the service one as a PDF online for 2009 XBs this morning.

Thanks!

(Message edited by redwingblackbird on June 11, 2016)
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 01:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://www.ukbeg.com/pash/2008%20Buell%20XB/99493- 08Y.pdf
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Akbuell
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

O.K., a good start, so to speak. Now time to put a multimeter on the batt terminals with the engine running, and conform 13.5V or so above 2k RPM. Confirms the health of the charging system.

The data link connector on an R model is under the fairing. Under the seat on my TT. A 4 pin connector with a plug in it. With the plug removed, and looking into the connector with the connector lock on the top, you will see the 4 pins. Upper right and lower right are the 2 that need to be jumpered, or shorted together. I made a jumper wire w/leftover bits from another project.

With stuff turned on, connecting the 2 pins will allow the check engine light to start flashing. The flashes ( say 1, pause 3, pause, repeat) will determine the fault that is present. Kinda need the manual here . . .

Let us know. Hope this helps, Dave
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Redwingblackbird
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 05:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had some time before I left for work today to try and do the diagnostic thing. Thanks! It worked. I took a video of it so I can do some homework when I get home. I didn't have enough time today to get any further.

Also, thanks for the electrical manual! I added it to my iBooks today.
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Redwingblackbird
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 08:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So I'm at work and I keep watching my video of the diagnostic test.

Is it in 3rds? 1st set means it's getting ready to do its thing, 2nd round is the first number, & the 3rd set is the second number?

I'm untrained.
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Akbuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 08:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes. 3 flashes per second is the 'intermission'. Then a 2 sec pause, then flashes for the first number. Another 2 sec pause, then flashes for the second number. 2 sec pause, then 'intermission' again.

Using my example, a 13 is Code 13, an 02 sensor failure. Code 16 is battery voltage, and so on.
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Redwingblackbird
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm thinking it's a code 16. I haven't yet bought a multimeter so I haven't done that part of what you guys ask.

If I had a code 16 & I replaced the original battery, shouldn't my check engine light be out?

(Seriously thinking/dreaming about taking my bike to work today.)
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Froggy
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If it is indeed code 16, which is battery voltage too low/high, simply replacing the battery is treating a symptom and not the cause.

The most likely culprit is either the stator or voltage regulator, sometimes a combination of both.

When the stator fails, the bike will not be able to charge the battery, so after a short ride things like the lights and fuel pump will discharge the battery till the point it no longer can run.

The voltage regulator acts like a dam. It sits between the stator and your battery, and converts the stators AC output to into DC. It tries to keep the battery at 14.2V, so if you have extra power it bleeds it off so you don't fry your electronics, and if you don't have enough power it will try pumping as much as it can into the battery.

If the stator fails, usually it just causes the voltage to drop (like what you experience). If the VR fails, depending on how it fails it can go either way, with allowing surges (symptom being blown headlight bulbs), or not allowing the bike to charge (Dead battery).

Test the stator and voltage regulator (directions should be in the link above).
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Reepicheep
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The thing that burned me (and that I a probably not alone being burned by) was that when the stator fails, you get stuck, and to get unstuck you jump start the bike.

If you do it with the car off, fine.

If you do it with the car on, the car alternator makes a ton of power, and self regulates. So when you put it on the Buell, it not only tries to charge the Buell battery, it starts a war with the Buell shunt regulator. Which, being a shunt regulator, it will loose.

There is some wiggle room, it depends on the car and the bike as to if the car is trying to set a higher voltage than the bike. If so, the bike voltage regulator dies. If not, things are fine.

I think I killed a VR on my M2 doing this when my stator failed.
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Akbuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Patience, Grasshopper, patience. About time for you to start venturing outside. Small trips at first . . .

Get the multimeter. A nice digital entry level one will do all you need for these bikes.

Measure the batt voltage and record it. Then start the bike and measure voltage again at 2k RPM.

Then spend quality time with the manual. The voltages you measured will determine if the charging system is healthy or not. Then look into the differences between historic and current CEL lights.

Let us know how it goes, Dave
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Redwingblackbird
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2016 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Batt voltage was 12.5-6

Running around 2000-3000rpm 13.5-7.

No check engine light this time.

Now I'm really tempted to go on a ride.

Any suggestions?
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2016 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Your charging system is trying. The battery may or may not be taking the charge, hard to tell.

Ride it, but don't stall it far from home. ; )
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Akbuell
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2016 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I suspect the battery was the original issue. The charging system section of both manuals specify a max of 15V to the battery above 2k RPM, so I believe your system is working.

I say go ride. FWIW, there are LED voltage meters that are easy to install and allow monitoring of the charging system. Kuryakin, I think? I used the supplied double side tape to stick mine to the back side of the front brake master cylinder. Provides good peace of mind.

Hope this helps, Dave
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Gabby_duck
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2016 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Go ride and enjoy
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Redwingblackbird
Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 05:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I started on a short ride. Had a check engine light for about a mile.Then I did 66 miles without the light off. Tried numerous things, it never came back on...even after refueling.

I'm with you guys, & I believe I'm probably ready for adventure again. Gonna take her to work today.

I wanted to sincerely thank everyone for the knowledge. I had genuine help and I got a lot out of this experience. I learned how to run my own diagnostic tests. I put in a new battery. I received two service manuals, and I learned how to use a multimeter.

I'm in Columbus Ohio, & the indie mechanic and the dealer that used to sell the Buell line never returned my calls. This forum is worth its weight in gold!



Thanks!
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Froggy
Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 09:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good to hear that all is good for now.

I recommend getting a voltmeter installed, that way you can see issues long before the check engine light comes on. The voltage regulators that failed for me all had good days where nothing happened, and bad days where it would constantly drop or spike voltage.

This is the voltage monitor I use, it is very discrete. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/335986.html?1202653245
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Akbuell
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2016 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wonderful!! Both you and the bike are back on the road, and you learned things.

And you are very welcome. Glad to help.
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