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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Drivetrain » Transmission: Breather, Gears, Dogs, Forks, Bearings » M2 Cyclone trans. shifting/noise/slop « Previous Next »

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Buell_bert
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2014 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I started noticing a slight bearing noise about a month ago when the clutch was pulled in but not bad. Then I had a heck of a time shifting the last time I rode it for a mile or so. I have it almost apart and am waiting for a 1-7/8" socket for the trans output shaft sprocket. I have noticed about 2 teeth movement worth of slop between the input shaft and output shaft. So far no parts laying in the bottom and all looks normal. The oil was at the proper level and clean. Almost like something let loose then cleared. Primary chain, clutch pack, adjuster etc. looks normal also. Misery loves company.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 08:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You probably won't see it until you pull the transmission and look inside your 5th gear drive assembly.

There, you will probably see the needle bearing cage rusted to nothing, and a pile of little needle bearings on the bottom, many worn half way gone from being a plane bearing. And you will also likely unfortunately see pitting on the output shaft.

Blake and others guilted me into replacing mine, but I still wonder if it would have held if I just sanded it so there weren't high spots, and put in new needle bearings.

The full transmission rebuild did let me clean up some raised lips on the shift drum, make sure my shift forks weren't bent, and let me replace the second gear pair (which was hopping out of gear occasionally anyway).
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Buell_bert
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 08:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shit. Reep, I appreciate the insight. It really is not that hard to pull but it would have been nice to wait till October or November. It will be pulled today. It only has about 11500 on it.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is where you do your happy tuber dance, and smugly pull out your cartridge transmission and post a picture of it on your work bench.

Once you get the primary off, you are literally 5 minutes from having the transmission on your bench.

If you have your belt off and the bike is in neutral, you can turn the output sprocket by hand. Mine felt a little crunchy when mine failed. But if you have vertical play on that shaft, the big outer bearing and inner bearings must both be toast.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok, I should feel better now. I got it out and EVERYTHING looks clean, tight and nothing in the bottom of the case. I don't know what else to do but put it back in. Oh crud. By the way getting the output shaft pulley nut of was a beach. Torch, socket, short breaker and a BIG hammer.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I spoke to soon. I put it back in and snugged everything up and rehooked the shifter up. There is a bad bearing on the main shaft as you can feel a couple bad spots in neutral. I just need to figure which one. Yippie.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here we go. The main drive gear came out with the trans. and I'm sure it is the 5th gear mainshaft needle bearings. Should the main drive gear stayed in the case and the trans just pulled out of it or should I use a puller to get it off??? The manual looks like the main drive gear should have stayed in the case. I need some help. I really don't need anything else to go wrong. Thanks.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yup, main bearing and 5th gear drive assembly should have been very firmly wedged in the case.

Thats the first thing to look at, is the case damaged? If so, that's your first and biggest problem, and it's a biggie.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 07:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Reep, the case looks fine so I should probably get a puller to get the output maindrive gear off the mainshaft??? It is really on there.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2014 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also the bearing is still in the case but the gear pulled out of the bearing. I'll get the bearing out tomorrow. The gear is really stuck on the mainshaft. It is most likely grooved and I'll most likely need a mainshaft.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That's good! The case is what you don't want to trash. The bearing was going to have to be replaced regardless once you pull the 5th gear drive assembly to rebuild it.

I have a thread here somewhere that shows the home built tool I made to remove and install that bearing and drive assembly. I'll try and scare it up later today.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 09:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Those bearings (especially the outer one) gets very little if any new oil besides what you give it when it is installed. I was trying to figure a place I could drill a hole or two to allow some oil to reach them. I may use some marine grade light grease when I install it. I'm going to have to gently grind the outer bearing outer race off. It is so rusty.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I didn't fall over on my right side, I'm doing periodic bearing maintenance! ; )
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is my removal thread...

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=3842&post=198002#POST198002
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Buell_bert
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here are 2 pics showing the outer bearing or what used to be the outer bearing. The bearings are rusted/welded to the shaft and the outer race just spun around this mess. I do not believe it is salvageable. We had to die grind the outer race off so we could chip/chisel the needles off the shaft and then pull off the inner bearing so we could remove the gears and replace the mainshaft now. This is one way to heat treat,
rust/welded needle bearings

rust/welded bearing 2
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, looking at that takes some of the spark out of your happy tuber dance at being able to remove your transmission without splitting cases...

That is NASTY!

The good news (if I am understanding things right) is that at worst you just trashed your output shaft and your 5th gear drive assembly. Your cases are fine.

I'd guess you could get those two parts new for under $300, and used but in good shape for even less if you can find somebody parting out a sporty that bent a valve.

I keep my old output shaft here on my desk at work. It will make a nice little mace when the zombie invasion begins.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Reep. I think the output 5th gear is ok because the inner brg. was good and the outer brg outer race was still intact. It just spun around the mess in the pics. I just ordered a new mainshaft for $145 shipped and all the little parts I'll get locally.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That's a nice suprise.

You will need that big outer bearing for the 5th gear drive assembly as well. It should be tight both in the cases and to the 5th gear drive assembly... so it's either stuck in there and you will damage it removing it, it popped right out and it was damaged before you started.

I don't think there is any way to pull it without hurting it, you can't get at the inner and outer race simultaneously to press it out, only the inner, so you put a side load on it and ruin it.

As I recall, it wasn't expensive, and the old part looks cool as heck sitting on your desk anyway.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2014 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok I finally picked up all the small stuff yesterday at the local HD shop and the main shaft arrived today. It may be a few days before it all gets together. I hate to hurry and it has been a bit since I tore it down so now is not the time to hurry the job.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The parts manual gives some nice exploded diagrams to help understand what goes where.

Good luck! Lots of little pieces, but it was a pretty smooth job.

Make sure the lips along the shift drum groves haven't been raised by the forks riding in them. Mine were a little, I just filed and polished them. Not a huge deal either way, but might as well clean it up while you have it out and apart.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2014 - 11:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That's OK Reep. My drums only have about 10k on them and so clean you could cut yourself with the clean/sharp edges.
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Buell_bert
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2014 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Goin back together. Tranny in and output gear on so tomorrow it is the primary or??? maybe fishing.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2014 - 08:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good luck!
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Buell_bert
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2014 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No big deal. It is back together and working fine. I also did not mention it did have a broken spring for the derby cover/clutch ramp. Really need to ride it a lot now as the season is getting shorter for us up here.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2014 - 08:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Feels good to have it back together, doesn't it?!?!
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Buell_bert
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2014 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

First time I had one of these apart and as always a new learning experience. I even got to buy a couple more tools. Yippie. Thanks Reep for the help.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2014 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No problem, when I did it I had a ton of help from this site as well (probably better help than I gave you : ) ).
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