| Author | Message | ||
     Ralph |
Blake, the two holes would be drawing air from inside of the box itself. I gotta tell you, that really bothers me. On a couple levels. To start with, why the heck are they there? It doesn't make sense to have a beautiful long intake tract like that and then throw in a "leak". I would like to know the logic. Very much. Aside from that, if there is a leak around the edge of the box (there almost certainly is) the motor is getting unfiltered air. Next, if the motor is going to pulling air in from the box, why have a seal around the snorkel where it goes into the actual air filter box? My snorkel never stayed sealed in that area any way. I'm just not seeing the idea here. I'm sure none of this happend by accident. At the same time it leaves me scratching my head (not just 'cause of the fleas either). Loki, I thought your mouth was sewn shut. The straw is the main, reserve is a hole next to it. bighairyralph | ||
| Jasonl |
I believe the Heimholtz box held enough still air to supply the engine, at full throttle, until it created enough vacuum to replenish the still air in the box. The two holes would've enabled the carb to draw more air than it could've through the restrictive filter. Those two holes tell me that the snorkel helped create suction through the filter instead of working to create a ram effect into the carb mouth. Looking at it that way you have this great reserve of still air to draw into the carb while muffling the intake "honking" for EPA noise regs. I'm talking *straight* out my ass but it sounds good so far right?! | ||
| Chuck |
Hey Ralph, did you know that you don't have the breathers hooked up  ? | ||
| Al_Lighton |
I don't know jack about this, but there is no way that the engine is sucking any air out of the still-air box if there isn't any way to replenish that air. The air feeding the engine comes only thru the snorkel from the filter box, the holes in the snorkel and the volume of the box is for noise tuning only. Or not. I told you I don't know jack about it, it's just my guess. Al | ||
| Ralph |
Chuck, I'm not sure if I should buy you an adult beverage or borrow one of Rockets bricks. Jason, that sounds good (even considering which orifice it came from) until you remember the snorkel is (supposed to be) sealed around the air filter box. In actuallity, it doesn't seem to seal well and so it could draw air from the box. But it doesn't seem like it's supposed to by design. Al, I'm sure the volume of the box is for tuning (ala courts short mathimatical thesis). It is certainly possible the holes are working in the same area. But that destroys the important part. The long intake length. So why even bother with holes? Just make it what works for the epa. Ugh. Wish I could spend the day looking through Buells engine design records. bighairyralph | ||
| Jerome |
On this matter of snorkel versus no-snorkel, did anybody make dyno runs with the Buell race filter (no snorkel) versus the Force filter (small snorkel), everything else being equal ? That would bring food to the discussion. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Ralph, The 2 holes in the snorkel combined with the air mass around the snorkel is what allows the hemholtz box to meet the intake noise emmissions level. It's a muffling device WITHOUT detracting from the performance. Don't see the leak thing either as the high velocity of the intake charge will mostly just flow right past the holes...but if your worried about 'em, easily plug them as they're just for noise. I've seen plenty of high performance [car] intake tracts with holes and the like in 'em...doesn't really do a thing. In fact, some are on purpose to provide a bit of turbulance in the air stream to aid in atomization. I'd doubt that's the case with the hemholtz though. I wish it was still up, Buell's old site had some killer materials about how/why the hemholtz works. Nice intake you did...how/why did you pick that length? There are lots of formulas for 'ideal' intake tract length, did you go this route or take a WAG? The curious thing in your picture is, it looks like you have a bolt in the vent for the float boal? Neil Garretson - armchair pontificator X0.5 | ||
| Al_Lighton |
"The curious thing in your picture is, it looks like you have a bolt in the vent for the float bowl?" Actually, based on the other bolts as well, it looks like he made a spacer that lets the intake snorkel attach independently of the three holes on the carb, which is a darn good idea for a force-like set up given the location of the front bolt. Nice job, BHR. What's that bracket hanging down below (at 6:30)the bighairyforceyoheim? | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Good call Al, didn't notice at first that the bolt's are all just slightly off. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Dark_Ninja |
Ralph, I would step into the light, but it hurts my eyes too much! :D Thanks for the reply, I was wondering if something was goofy with my bike. Blake, What would you want done to the archives? I have the computer power and storage space to do just about anything. Let me know if you are interested. | ||
| Ralph |
Jerome, I'm going to be asking Aaron, when he gets back, to try just that. Also, running the snorkel as is and with the holes plugged. Neil, I was starting to figure the holes were for sound attenuation. As Al pointed out earlier, it's kinda the only logical reason behind them. Thanks for confirming it. I read those little info packets Buell had on its old site but it's been a couple of years. I still think they become part of the intake tract as the air is going to get sucked in from where ever is easiest. I figured the "perfect" intake length using Denishs equations. Unfortunatly, I couldn't fit a tube that long. I basically went with the packaging limitations and called it good. Al, you're dead right. I made a spacer plate so I wouldn't be limited by the original carb/air cleaner holes. Also, the spacer acts as a venturi while it makes up for the size difference of the intake and carb ID's. This one had very little difference but the next is going to be a mongo noodle. The bracket hanging underneath is part of the orginal Heimholz mount. I didn't want to cut it off until I was sure I didn't need it again. Hey Dark Ninja, something is goofy, but it's not your bike  | ||
| Dark_Ninja |
Ralph, I was about to be seriously hurt by your comment, and then I realized I was allowing my ego to be bruised by a Yeti! :D LOL! Ride Safe (It says Yeti 'cuz I can't spell Sasquatch worth a tinkers damn) :D | ||
| Sparky |
One thing I haven't seen in this snorkel discussion yet is that the stock airbox inlet is at the front of the head in what I would imagine is a high pressure area when the bike is at speed. This may be one reason why the airbox size and main duct length is what it is. So quite possibly there is a mild supercharging effect while riding at high speeds, wouldn't ya think? Of course, if this is so, the effect would not show up on a dyno, unless the dyno were inside a wind tunnel. Aaron? Got a humdinger project for ya! Sparky 96S1, 98S3 | ||
| Ralph |
Certainly possible Sparky. But, while it is in the forward section of the bike the intake is not in the front. There is going to be a wash of "dirty" air in that area. You bring up the killer point, how do these intakes work in the real world, not just on a static dyno. Oh well, I ain't goin' there. Jerome, I forget to mention Battle to Win has had several comparisons of intake/air cleaners. If you'd like I'll post which issues you may be interested in. bighairyralph | ||
| Jerome |
Ralph, thanks for the proposition, but actually I have the past issues of Battle2Win. I remember that they have tested the Force, but as far as I remember, it was not compared to the Buell race filter. One could find Buell race dyno tests in another issue, but as Battle2Win says, comparing both tests is a bit an apple and orange story. Best is to do the test the same day, same bike, same operator... | ||
| Rocketman |
I asked Aaron about the Forcewinder V the Race Filter as I'm considering one in carbon. The dyno wizard said he didn't think the Force would work well with the filter stuck out like that but he was surprised to find it work real good. Now if it's good enough for a world record holder.......... Rocket in England | ||
| Bomber |
knowing that I'm opening myself up for some scathing comments (whytheheckelse would I post here?) / / / // / anyone got any experience with an S&S air cleaaner on their Buell? I know I'm dating myself (highly illeagal in most states, I am sure), but the S&S looks like it would reveal more of the engine, and ANYTHING with an S&S 'cleaner on it sez performance to me! however, if it's gonna do harm (I'm presently running a force sidewinder), perhaps I'll just get one and hang it on the wall . . . .. | ||
| Ralph |
Jerome, you're right. So I guess we need to test the race intake seperetly. What I'm mostly interested in is intake length. Bomber, if you can come up with an S&S air cleaner (and we can talk Aaron into wasting some dyno time) we could find out. bighairyralph | ||
| Bomber |
no sweat, can do easy, BHR . . . . .I'll round one up and get a K&N for the poor dear | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Supercharging effect...I'd seriously doubt it. Any supercharging/ram-air effect has to have an opening on the leading edge (or along a flat panel w/ a very special duct type - NACA duct to be precise). Plus, the forks and airflow over the wheel etc will create tremendous turbulance in the air flow and effectively "dirty" it. There's only a very small portion of bikes with truely effective ram-air systems out there on the market (my 6R is one and Kawi spent MILLIONS on windtunnel testing to develop it...and it really only provides extra hp above 80-100mph)....where as the F4's isn't a ram-air system...it's a good intake but will not produce a ram-effect. Haven't we had this lengthy discussion before??? Search the archives for ram-air. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Loki |
Everybody concentrates way to much on the ram effect. Kinda really over rated on the street if one looks real close. The biggest gains will be found removing hot air from the intake tract. Looking at that darn breadbox and where the inlet is pointed. Sure seems as if a lot of hot air is going to get pulled in.Look at an older big four bike. Where is the air pulled from? Behind the engine and from under the seat of fuel tank. Hot air? Now look at a newer bike where is the air pulled from? In front of the engine, before it can get heated. Most of the ram effect is a by product of looking for cooler air. Kaw spent alot of money just for bragging rights, imho. But that kinda stuff will sell bikes. The traditional "ham can" pulls air from the backside where it will have gotten warmer. Great for helping warm a motor up, but ohterwise... Its best effect is its ability to flow more than a stock set-up. The "sidewinder" as a ram effect induction? Not enough to think about. It's best traits. Flows some real serious air and cooler air at that. The elbow really works at trying to straighten out the air before it hits the carb. A little less turbulence of the air entering a CV carb allows it to function better. Now if we add the "racewinder" to the "sidewinder" we have the potential of producing a mild ram effect. Look at what they did with the camaro with the Z28/LT1 hoods. Pull some mildly pressurized air from a cooler spot and produce some extra ponies. The majority of the increase was due to the cooler intake air and not the pressurizing effect. This is just my take on breathing and it is just my humble opines....They are my observations and experiences inmy rose colored world. loki | ||
| Rocketman |
I'm not everyone Loke eye Nice post, and that's how I see it too, including the Kwaker BS ! Rocket in England | ||
| Airborne |
"Harmonic Resonance" A term used mostly for speaker construction and musical instruments. In the case of the Buell air cleaner the only use for the term is to decrease the "intake honk" to meet EPA noise standards. The honk sound is created at the very front air opening. By releasing some of the air pressure at a certain point along the tube a sound tone is created. Think of a flute. The longer the tube the deeper the tone. Plastic doesn't resonant sound very well and metal or wood resonates sound very well. Think flute or guitar here. Bass tones are easier to muffle than high tones with plastic. Therefore a plastic cover is placed over the two holes in the snorkel. This also explains the length of the snorkel. Buell would have us think the bread box opening by the front of the engine is to draw high pressure air that builds up in front of the motor but that doesn't work after 100MPH. The air flow around the right fork, front cylinder and the leading edge of the bread box changes drastically after 100MPH and a vacuum is created at the filter opening that starves the engine for air. Before I made some changes the bikes acceleration rate would drastically slow down after 100MPH and the speedo would slowly creep to 140MPH. After stripping the bread box off, the bike would keep rolling straight through 100MPH with out a decrease in acceleration as before. Last year I made the modification to my air box by stripping the bread box off then placing a K&N over the intake of the snorkel just as Ralph did and plugged the two holes with silicon. I got the idea from a picture of a race prepped Buell. On the first test run I realized why a race prepped Buell doesn't have the air box. More power you ask? Yes. Intake honk? Yes but who cares the V&H is louder anyways. A decrease in acceleration after 100MPH? NO. I even posted some instructions how to do it somewhere around here. I thought that the intake length as measured from the intake manifold to the carb or throttle body was were the difference in power was made. Not the distance from carb / Throttle body to the filter. Think of the high raise intake on a dragster between the intake manifold and the carbs. I would really like to be able to post a pic of my intake mod but I haven't been able to get it to work for me. If somebody could post it for me I'll E-mail you the pictures. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Ram-air is not kinda overrated on the street, it IS overrated on the street...at least here in the States. FWIW, Kawi doesn't market/hype the ram-air (in fact information is kinda hard to come by from them)...it's purely a race thing that makes it to the public cause it has to by supersport rules. Granted it's been a while since I've looked at a M2 breadbox, but at least on my X1 I don't see how it would be pulling in hot air (except at maybe very low speeds). The opening is before the leading edge of the cyl. and the airflow would pull the heat back, not forward and into the intake tract. Now I do see how the breadbox would starve it over/around the ton...but these weren't really designed w/ sustained 100+mph riding in mind. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Thunderbolt |
OK, I have a problem. I was out riding today on my S2. I have just finished the break-in period on a new t-storm top end. I had the engine tached up to somewhere around 5,500 rpm when (with the front wheel in the air) the engine just started coughing. It was a total loss of power. I was alarmed and pulled over to the side of the road. It coughed a little more (almost like it was running out of gas). I kept feeding it more throttle and it finally settled into a normal idle. When I tried to pull away, it started coughing again. It did this for a few minutes until I shut it off and let it be for 10 minutes or so. I then started it up again, listening carefully to the eninge. everything seemed Ok, so I drove it to my buddy's. I parked it there, and we looked it over for any obvious things that might be wrong. we couldn't find anything. I then decided to drive it home. The whole way home it drove A-1, although I never brought it above say 4k rpm. Right before I got home (walking distance), I reved the enine up to about 5,000 or 5,500 rpm. It then did a few minor coughs. I also just (2 weeks ago) installed a new ignition box with a higher (6,800 rpm) cut-out. I just swapped back the original ignition unit and will try to duplicate the problem tomorrow. Anybody have any idea what's going on? | ||
| Bigblock |
Make sure your tank vent is not blocked that will make it act like you're running out of gas. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Resident carb experts, My 00 M2 has a bit of a pinging problem. It hits around 3800-4000 RPM under hard acceleration. I have the ususal carb mods, 200 main, 45 pilot, N65C needle raised .050, drilled slide hole, screw out 2.5 turns. I just put the N65C needle in on Friday, it helped quite a bit but it still rattles a bit. I fear it will be worse as the weather warms up again (it's been in the mid 60's lately). I know we have an issue with gas formulations in this area. Last fall, I had no pinging problems. Now I do. Only thing changing was the gas. I need to check the static timing, just haven't had time. Any quick and dirty ways to do this or should I just follow the service manual? Carb question,, What does the low speed screw control? Is it the amount of fuel or the amount of air? On my other bikes with Mikuni carbs, the low speed screw controls the amount of air mixing with the fuel from the pilot jet. Is the Keihn carb the same? If I want to fatten up the low-mid mixture can I go to 2 3/4 - 3 turns or is that going to lean it out instead? BTW, a number of folks have asked what to use to for a shim to raise the needle. I used a pop rivet backing washer filed to .050". The inside hole was the perfect size, it's made of aluminum and easy to file and I had them laying around and available. It's been in there for around 3 thousand miles with no wear marks at all. Any suggestions, comments would be appreciated. Thanks BluzM2 | ||
| Mikej |
The ATB tech page says to use an XL needle and a .009" thick washer, much thinner that the washer you are using, but I don't know if that could be a problem. Also, one of the current newstand motorcycle magazines has a test article of the Fitz fuel pellet pack. Supposedly gave them a (I hate to mention this part...) 3hp gain on the dyno. And the pellets are supposed to last several hundred thousand miles somehow. Probably just magic seed technology, but I'll let you read it for yourself. It might have been HotRod Bike, or one of the other ones along that vein. I can check at the store tonight if you want to get the correct magazine issue and page number. Don't know if it will help with your pinging though. | ||
| Rdrage |
Has anyone tried any aftermarket FI fuel filters? I want to get ride of the scoop on my X-1 but that "Made in Mexico" filter is UGLY! Nothing against Mexico of course... ;-) | ||
| Doncasto |
As I recall the idle screw on a CV-40 controls the flow of fuel, not air. Therefor more clockwise turns means richer settings. Don |
