| Author |
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Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 03:13 am: | 
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I've got a 2006 Uly XB12X that is stock.
Seems to run fine till about 20 miles in..think it is a heat issue but..tack drops and or chugs and or dies and or back fires and generally trys to get me killed.
I've changed air filter, plugs, fuel, fuel filter, tightened every ground I could find, (didn't grind paint off of boss) and checked all electrical connections I could get to. No sign of melting or bad seated connectors. Took it to HD dealer the other day and they suggested I write them a blank check to troubleshoot it. They did however put it on the diagnosis tool for me and it kicked out a Throttle Control sensor error, exhaust flutter value stuck open; stuck closed, and the angle bank indicator had error. I'm riding a 2006 XB12X 21k miles. The Angle bank sensor recall has been done..(located now behind seat latch)
Any ideas? |
Olenuf2nobetter
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 04:21 pm: |
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Had a similar issue w/ my '08 - has the voltage regulator ever been replaced? The H-D dealer I bought my Uly from replaced my regulator when it began to pop headlight bulbs, but apparently installed a Sportster regulator, and they're not the same (or so I heard from the H-D dealer who replaced it). No issues since. |
Ulynut
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 08:05 pm: |
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ECM could be cracked from rubbing on the seat pan. Even a hairline crack will cause problems. Take a close look around the grey connectors. If it is cracked, you'll need to replace it. EBR has them for a stock '06 Ulysses with the stock exhaust. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 09:09 pm: |
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Thanks for the reply's. The dealer did the service bulletin ( I had ground the screws but not the frame or neg cable) They couldn't find any hairline or other cracks, some seat pan rubbing but only on the tall piece build to take it. Dealer said no errors were found when I first brought the bike in.
I was out for the first test ride and was about 10 minutes down the interstate and took an exit. When I started to pull out..sputtered..died. Got to an access road turned, died..rode back toward the dealer and it shut down completely (2-miles) waited a few while the fan ran..and got it started, rode it another 2 miles to dealer. left it idling (5 minutes) till a mechanic could take it out..(no mechanic has ever been on it and observed the issue) he rode for 15 minutes..never could catch it!! They did replace the clutch sensor too but am sure that was a new issue. Day two sputtered a bit on the way home but no shutdowns. Day three..no sputters or shut downs. 'm hoping the ecm is learning its' way back to a healthy state
How can I check the regulator? (i've got a burnt low beam now) I assume it is stock. I bought the bike new.
Thanks for the help! |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 11:31 am: |
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Hmmm ... based on my tuber experience, a couple of thoughts.
Poor running, multiple trouble codes can be a result of an ETS in pre-failure mode. They can get wonky without showing a trouble code.
The CPS can show running issues w/o a fault code, and can cause running issues like yours. Take the cover off and look for signs of heat failure. May want to check the connector under the engine pulley cover.
Finally, since the problem seems to be going away ( at least for now ), which is not likely if the problem is electrical in nature, contaminated fuel? Esp water contamination? |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 11:36 am: |
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And finally, start the bike and hook up a multimeter across the battery terminals. Above 2k rpm you should see something between 13.5V-14.5V. If not, the service manual is your friend.
Hope this helps, Dave
(Message edited by Akbuell on June 06, 2012) |
Pabadboy
| | Posted on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 12:09 am: |
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I have an 06 Uly and have the same running issues. Have spent over $1000 in parts and labor... the issue seems to go away for a 30 miles and returns. I have replaced the TPS, fuel pump, engine temp. sensor. Hate to spend another $300 plus on a new ECM. I have 40000 miles on it and didn't have problems until a few hundred miles ago. Love the bike but don't ride it because I don't want to get stranded. |
Kvdog
| | Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 03:12 pm: |
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I also have an '06 Uly with 30K on it with the same problems. I have been struggling with it since last year and have gotten nowhere. I have replaced the battery, reset the TPS, checked for chafed wires, grounding issues, etc. The bike only does it when hot, and can go a day or two with no symptoms, then they return. It is pretty much unrideable--cutting out in traffic has nearly gotten me smacked. I see others have put a lot of money and time into what may be the same issue, and are not getting if fixed either. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 09:58 pm: |
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I've heard of a nicked fuel pump wire causing issues but i'm definitely trying two seasons quick test. Volta, was your bike also back firing? Your symptoms sound like what i'm experiencing. Once hot push down on the grey ecm connection and see if it stops or idles poorly. Also the (clutch side) far left Red/white wire on the grey ecm plug...it runs to the ABS via a white connector (3wires) right under the ecm. messing with that was causing issues until all the grounds under the seat were cleaned (frame and screw and neg battery wire)
Once cool the bike runs and runs good. Maybe the intake seals are getting warm expanding and allowing air to by pass.
My bike has been fouling up about 10 miles into a ride. I caught it on video check out the tack in this you tube video. This gremlin has been cursing me for a year..I'm glad to finally have some Uly riders to share and learn from..if someone cracks the case pls pls..post the resolution. Too many unsolved forums out there.
http://youtu.be/JHU1r7Npc94 at nine seconds you can see the tack flat line then bounce up again...unfortunately the wind is too loud to hear the engine noise. I'll keep trying to film. I've had three mechanics ride it and (of course) it has never errors on them! |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 12:11 pm: |
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Try this for repairing the '77' connector http://docs.google.com/view?docid=d4rbxwr_20dq5khf
I did this and while it seems to start easier..it didn't fix my issue. It is got to be an overheating issue. The bike runs fine in the morning but once it gets above 90 out the problem gets worse quicker and is basicly unrideable. Random (loud) backfiring, loss of engine power, dies, chuggs, I'm parking it for a while till I can come up with some fix that works. ..just not safe or enjoyable. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 10:05 pm: |
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Anybody that post similar issues have any break thru's yet?? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 08:37 am: |
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Mine just did this, and it was the cam position sensor. I put it on a scope and verified it (no way to tell otherwise, ECM spy can't sample fast enough to see the transient failures).
It threw some of the same codes you saw when it was exploding... TPS short to ground, exhaust valve. Nothing about the CPS though, even though that is what was obviously bad.
Remember after putting the new CPS that if you reset the TPS, back the idle screw all the way out first. I forgot to do that and that cost me another day of tearing into it before I realized my mistake (though it helped as I found and fixed a couple more chafe points).
Here is the whole thread with pictures of the good and bad scope traces here:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/686969.html?1343048488
I'm up to close to 100 miles post fix now, and it is running better than ever with nary a burble or hiccup. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 08:38 am: |
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(The bad news is it's like $150 for the part by the time you pay taxes... ) |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Monday, July 30, 2012 - 10:37 pm: |
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Reepicheep,
Thanks for the advice! Where did you find the part? I just put a new battery on it.. That didn't help. I guess I'll start looking for a cps and someone to do the tps reset. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 08:22 am: |
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Al at American Sportbike has it in stock, and your local Buell speaking Harley Dealer will be able to order it for you.
I hate just throwing parts at things, but if you are stuck paying $100/hr shop rates, buying a $150 CPS and just trying it isn't crazy. Know anyone with an oscilliscope? You can just pop off the seat and use a paper clip to go in the back of the CPS wire where it goes into the ECM and watch the signal live when the bike is behaving badly. If you can do that and see the "missing teeth" then you have a decently reliable indicator your CPS is going intermittent.
You don't actually need to mess with the throttle position sensor reset to do this repair.
You will need to drill out the rivits on the timing cover, and re-set the timing though. That requires you find top dead center of the intake stroke on the front cylinder. This is pretty easy with ECM spy, you don't need to take anything apart. Without ECM Spy you could probably still do it just by pulling a spark plug and listening for the fuel pump to cycle as you turn the motor.
Make sure you mark a line on the old CPS and case, then transfer that mark to the new CPS (as best you can, it's hard to line them up), and get it at least close when you install it. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 12:30 pm: |
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I changed the cps two nights ago, new battery...short of it. NOT fixed. Rode to work, fine. rode home 16miles point..bike died apparently of low charge on the battery. . is it possible the stator works/doesn't work off and on? Coasting down a hill...key on bike off...noticed the speedometer function then not...like it was loosing power/signal..symptom of a short? What is wrong here?? Anyone? |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 02:45 pm: |
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First, check battery voltage. If down, check to see if you get 13+V above 2k RPM. If so, charging system is most likely OK.
As always, battery cables tight. Just because the bolt is tight doesn't mean the cable end is.
Since it seems to be time, meaning temp (?) dependent, try swapping the relays around, and insure the ends are corrosion free.
Ign switch to wiring harness connector tight?
Seems something is causing the bike to turn off/on, as if you were turning the key on/off/partially off.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2012 - 09:59 pm: |
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Sorry about the unneeded CPS. It should resell OK if you want to minimize your loss.
So after each 20 mile jaunt and death, are you recharging the battery from an external source before the next try? Thats a critical detail. If so, its your charging system. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 02:42 pm: |
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Yes, at least I had to after the most recent incident.
Weird thing is the issue has been on going (undiagnosed) for about a year. ..so if it was the stator or regulator then I would have been having to do this often, New battery as of a month ago (barely ridden) and last night I started it. . . ran it for like 20min and no problem, cooling fan kicked on and it had 13.6 to over 14 k on the volt meter. So it would appear the battery is getting juice enough to charge. Wonder if stators are known to fail when hot?
Also checked the grounds up to the clutch sensor and all appeared ok using volt tester.
Ignorance killed the cat - curiosity was framed. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 03:30 pm: |
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Yes, stators can fail hot and be OK cold.
Did you check the grounds at the steering head (including checking for an internally broken wire but intact insulation)? And the one that goes from the frame to the rear head via the motor mount? A flat braided piece. And clean the battery terminals, obvious I know but they can go from clean to fouled over a weekend. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 12:03 am: |
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Does this make sense, bad regulator?
multimeter testing: continuity
on the vm black mm lead to red wire off of regulator..checking with the red mm lead to each of the three coming from regulator (would go into 77 plug and onto stator) between 333 and 335 all three.
All other variations are OL. Which according to the article I found below seem to say the regulator is bad. Anyone got the time to test against a known good one and give me feedback?
According to one dude the should indicate bad Regulator. His test below.
Regulator/Rectifier - That's the little box that has the fins on it that the stator connects to. Put your meter on the Diode setting, and unplug the rectifier. There's gonna be 5 wires comming out of the Reg/Rec: the 3 to the stator, and a red one and a ground wire. To do the diode tests, put your red lead on the red wire. Then go to the 3 that plug into the stator. 1,2,3 tests, then switch your meter leads and do the same thing. You should have OL for one of the ways, and a small voltage for the other. Then move to the ground wire, and do the same tests, switch leads again and test again. You should have 12 tests total because of the 6 diodes in there. For each of the red and ground wires, you should have OL for 3 of the tests, and a small voltage for the other 3, like I just said. If all that checks out, then your rectifier is good. Next plug everything back in, and check your ground wire connection from the Rec/rec. Make sure you check it as close to the reg/rec body as you can, cuz there could be a break in the wire or something. If there's an open, then locate it, and repair as necessary. Do the same with the red wire to the batter positive terminal, as that's where that one goes. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 12:11 am: |
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Additionally it did start acting up again after getting hot..i took a video and captured 6 blinks of the engine (red) light..is that a code?
anyone know what it indicates? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 08:20 am: |
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Without an internal schematic for the regulator, I don't think you can bench test it effectively with a meter.
The regulator is easy to test, it's role is straightforward. Run the bike, and see if the regulator is regulating. It's a shunt regulator, so it is either a dead short and is on the edge of being on fire (because of all the power it is dissipating) or it is open (more likely) and just not shunting anything or regulating anything.
If it has failed to a short, the stator (which can be tested well with a meter) and stator output would test fine, but when you hook up the VR you would be running too low a voltage to charge. And maybe on fire.
If it failed to open (which it would probably do anyway right after it failed to a short and tried to catch on fire) it would fail to regulate and your battery voltage would be too high when you rev the motor.
Basically, if you see too high a voltage for your battery, it is a bad regulator.
(Note bad connectors can and often do confound the testing procedures...) |
Bsulysses
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 07:32 pm: |
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Bear with the novel, i think some of this may help you guys. I have an '07 Uly with 16k on it. fine when i bought it. was told just the fan needed a fuse(but the fan ended up not working at all bc of the oil from the rocker grommet) took the exhaust actuator off and interactive exhaust cable to put a new buell race issue pipe on. had my cousin map it to his firebolt settings with his ecmspy. have the wiring switched for lights mod so both come on. I have a lot the above posted mysterious issues with my bike and i have been stressed out getting nowhere with dealers/servicers and the only thing that helps is knowing we're all having this same problem/problems and it seems whatever we do its either patched for the 12mi, next week or month or not at all. I've never been more paranoid about a bike or dying on one, i haven't rode hardly since i got it and like *Padaboy said afraid if you take off and go somewhere you'll get stranded. i have been cruising along on US-30, I-75, and 480/270 cleveland and had the bike stahl leaving me to use my experience and avoid the cars and tractor trailers bearing down on me after i would pass them bike would die. i have never been as close to death as many times with a bike than only this one. never owned a bike/brand that i am highly ecstatic for and hate so many things about them at the same time.
Back in August i took it to Gover HD in Piqua Ohio. It was basically an experiment for them. after 2 1/2 weeks of trying to figure out why the bike was overheating, stahling, chuggin/sputtering while cruising after 12mi at about 55-60mph(as if i was cruising and kept pulling in the clutch really fast every couple of seconds) i finally got them to listen to me, thinking the whole time it was the ecm bc of the seat giving away over time and cracking the connection points. they said things were so intermittent that they might have it a month before they could pinpoint it. so after all this time and labor and almost a 6-700$ bill (got them down to $173.34 bc they knew they screwed up and admitted that the whole time it was a bad ecm) i knew they just wanted it patched and outta site! they basically told me they didnt want it back in a cheesy grin kind of way. i ride the bike home, no overheating, the fan is running right while riding and after shut off, no more backfire tach sweeping shut of/stahlling, and i could cruise in first gear at a real slow idle down the road no choppy chugging along anymore or hit the gas and it pops air almost dying. not even 250mi later im slowly starting to get back to the same point i was at when i brought it in to get fixed. cant idle anymore its really choppy when you walk the bike at 1 mph, the fan starting to slowly perform its functions now doesnt work at all even tried a direct connect test to the battery. i did the jumper pull code method and got Trouble code 21-Interactive exhaust, 36-fan voltage, 44 BAS bank angle sensor. Gover HD told me the only code that was leaving the CEL on when i got it back from them was the code 21 and said they couldnt just shut it off, and im pulling other codes now since i got it back. their tech ruined my actuator told me to plug it back into the bike so the code would shut off, it did but then the plastic gears in it got messed up because there was no cable to keep it from spinning/snapping toooo far back and forth each way. so never hook up an exhaust actuator without the cable and a valve on the pipe to connect to, jump it or something to make the ecm think its plugged in or use ecm spy to shut it off. I am now left with either miraculously figuring this bike situation out on my own or taking it to Western Reserve HD in Mentor, Cleve OH. or DucRX in S Cleve Region and im still afraid to spend more money on them to figure nothing out but that i need another new fan and another new ECM. I found out that my rear rocker grommet was leaking, spewing oil on frame, rear cylinder fan and the wiring and harness that is tucked between the sub-frame and fan. i feel like i've explained a lot but still don't feel like the problem(s) been explained enough like theres more to it still im missing. i feel like i ride a ticking time bomb     |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 09:55 am: |
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First, I think you need to order a bag of carriage returns. Part number HD-0015. Apply liberally, but not until after the election. 
You have an electrical "situation" of some kind. They can be trivial to fix, but awful to find. Unfortunately, they just take a lot of time. If it is just you doing it, its not so bad, you just ride it until it acts bad, then you try and find it. It can take weeks, but you are only poking it when it is acting up.
Taking it to a dealer puts you and them in a bad position if it is an intermittant fault. Their techs are paid, and they have overhead, so if their tech spends an hour working on your bike he needs to charge for an hour. So if most of that hour is trying to reproduce a problem that is hard to reproduce, you both end up screwed, you paid a fortune and they have an unhappy customer.
I had a couple of problems like this as well, and a very careful and methodical investigation eventually tracked them down without a lot of drama or trouble. I had broken wires (two) in the bundle that goes around the steering head (self induced by me binding the harness under the flyscreen) and a bad crank position sensor (that just failed). I did not have the cracked ECM, the PO of my bike had the block installed and I checked it for clearance when I got it.
For the ECM, I left the block there but did not relocate it. I did glue a piece of dense foam glued to the top of it, so when the seat does hit, it presses down the ECM instead of pressing down on the ECM connectors.
So anyway, not a solution, but perhaps a strategy.
If you can afford and learn to use a cheap digital oscilloscope ($100 or so) it can make some debugging tasks go from "virtually impossible" to "trivial".
So take your time, be methodical, and start hunting.
You did the ECM crack investigation, double check that and make sure your checks and assumptions are all sound.
Then I would work my way down the bundle around the steering head and look for internal breaks. Not because I think your problem is there, just because its easy and straightforward and *could* be related to (or just confounding) your problem, so you might as well eliminate it as a wild card.
Then I would start going after one sensor at a time with a scope. Once I did that, it took me less than an hour to pin down a clearly failing cam position sensor.
For what that's worth! |
Bsulysses
| | Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 04:05 pm: |
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much appreciated post. i have a multimeter but ill have to get a oscilloscope. i have to adjust the bundle on the left steering column because if its not in the right spot, turning the bike all the way to the right cuts the lighting off until you turn back to the left. maybe i have some wires messed up between there and im assuming they run back through the wiring harness and if so mine is caked with oil from the rocker box grommet and is shorting out my fan wires and all the others tucked in that section. the bike sounds like the starter bogs down just before it turns over like it starts hard. my 2nd fan is shot bc of the oil and my 36 code fan voltage is showing, shorting or something maybe from oil as well. i wonder if all these wiring issues were having and oil have made our fans, wiring harness and ecm's get fried or maybe not from oil but just broken wires or shorting out somewhere melting. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 11:36 am: |
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Responded on the other thread. It's easier to help if you keep all the information in one place, so pick one of the two threads and stick with that one. |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 07:31 pm: |
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I disconnected my speedometer sensor thinking it might be shorting out. Same issue. I think my next step will be taking it to HD and having fuel pressure checked while hot. Seems like a shot in the dark but maybe a cheap validation. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 08:37 am: |
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Just my 2 cents, Not from a point of view of knowledge of these machines, at all, but, it seems to be giving you stick when it's hot?
What are the chances of a failing ignition coil? I have seen this on other vehicles before today.
That is of course if it's not a failing charging system as someone suggested.
Whatever the case may be , it needs systematic diagnosis. One system at a time |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 10:21 pm: |
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how can I check the ignition Coil?
Do you have good diagnosis steps? |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 07:42 am: |
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Do you have a shop manual?? Usually there's a diagnosis procedure in there.
Diagnostic procedures - nope - logically, list every system / subsystem and proceed by ticking them off as you've checked them. Eg - charging system -
Make sure you have a fully charged battery-
check open cct voltage at 5000 rpm,- typically should be in the order of about 90 volts AC, reconnect -
check rectifier voltage at the battery,again at 5000 rpm -
should be at between 13.8 - 14.5 volts - more it's shot, less it's shot.
Does this only occur on the move?? if so you've likely got something intermittent that appears from movement or heat build up.
Your coil may fail as it gets hot, typically an ign coil draws about 7 - 8 amperes under running conditions. Find out what the open cct resistance is, if its out of spec, it may be whats biting you.
I had a bike once that ran fine at low speed, drill it off the line to get ahead of the traffic it would stutter, jerk and / or die, basically it was like a horse trying to buck me off, turned out to be a duff ignition switch, had too many keys on the sod and the "G's" under acceleration forced the internal contact to part and fail.
There's unfortunately no magic answer, it's a painstaking, slow, methodical process to root out an electrical gremlin such as what it seems you may have!
(Message edited by andersonhdj on November 11, 2012) |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2012 - 09:12 pm: |
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I found two things. The black wire that comes off the ecm (grey side i think) is a ground for a bunch of sensors. Where those all connect were covered in something that looked like green wax..cleaned that up. Then thinking it was fixed I started taping it back up. Tapped the ecm on the battery mount and the motor missed and cut out. So, I messed with it..mounted the ecm back the way it should be and tried again with the handle of a screw driver. tapped the ecm, motor cut out/missed. So, anyone have a ecm for sale? I am excited that I may have discovered the issue! Harley dealership did me a solid and checked my charging system and ruled that out. Although they actually put a new ecm on to rule that out..he said it wasn't that but..I gotta switch it out. This isn't right. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2012 - 06:27 am: |
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It might be a simple dry joint, is there a chance you could open it?
I have never looked closely at one for these bikes but it may be something you could fix.
A little dodge we used to use in the electronics industry was to heat the pcb with an electrical paint stripping gun to remelt the solder.
This was of course on multilayer boards - did'nt always work but after 2 hrs solid tracing on a hybrid radio board, it was worth a shot, esp when it did work.
Maybe you get lucky!! |
Sirvincentblack
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 08:41 pm: |
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FIXED!
I bought a new ECM had factory settings downloaded, had a tps reset and timing set (it was a bit retarded) and low and behold, it works! Only issue i've noticed (on the single one hour ride) was idle was rough or rather ...low in the beginning and about 2-3k once the bike was warm. It never stalled or stuttered and for that i'm happy. We will see on hot summer days coming up but i'm optimistic. The seat appears to have worked the ecm plugs enough to allow moisture in causing shorts on the board. That is the official theory anywho.
Happy riding and thanks for all the input!
Sir Vincent Black!
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