| Author |
Message |
    
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 01:13 pm: | 
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I wouldn't think tank pressure would get past the pump or regulator, and unless it was higher than that in the lines, there would be no effect on the engine.
I believe the heart of the matter is the low AFV, and that is a symptom rather than a cause. TPS, ETS, and O2 inputs determine AFV, so 1 or moe of those 3 things is the problem. Of the 3, only the TPS hasn't been replaced in the past 6 months, but that is no guarantee that new parts are any good.
So... How to definitively determine what's wrong without buying parts that are costly and may be bad to begin with.
I will check fuel pressure to help diagnose pump and injectors. Those would lead the O2 to leaning things out.
A buddy has an infrared temp gun that could tell me actual head temp to ck agsinst ECMSpy temp reading to see if the ETS is accurate. That one is a question of when I can get it from him.
My only checks on the TPS would be thru ECMSpy.
Anyone see flaws in this plan?
Wiring and lines are easy to check and have been often and repeatedly. Most everything has been terouted or secured, but will go over things again. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 01:30 pm: |
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Would turning off the O2 keep it in open loop and keep th AFV the same? |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 02:24 pm: |
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Open loop is determined by RPM which is fed into the ECM. O2 sensor only works off idle to about 3,600 RPM, which is your closed loop mode. Open loop above approx 3,600 rpm. |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 02:26 pm: |
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Open loop works off of fixed fuel maps in the ECM. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 02:46 pm: |
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For now, I think I'll go open loop and an AFV Of 90 to keep from burning anything up |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 03:43 pm: |
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TPS is smooth.
Injectors do not leak.
Should there be a difference in ve values (whatever that is) or injector pulsewidths? |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 05:50 pm: |
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Idle at Tubers is closed loop |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 05:59 pm: |
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You can disabled the box "idle close loop enable" At ECM-config (ECMspy) to see what going on at idle |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 06:38 pm: |
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Pulse width (duration) should be identical on both cylinders. The ECM controls the pulse width. Is it adjustable via ECMspy?
Did you say that only one cylinder is running hot? AFV for that cylinder is running at what currently? |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 08:08 pm: |
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Pulse width (duration) are not be identical on both cylinders, because of fuel maps are different, therefore the pulse width (duration) is different.
Okay a log with a warm and hot engine might give a clue what's going wrong! |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 08:22 pm: |
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Would turning off the O2 keep it in open loop and keep th AFV the same?}.....YES! |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 09:09 pm: |
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Closed loop at idle? I'll try that.
O2 off and an AFV of 90 made for a decent idle that didn't get too hot. Once good and warm, though, the idle still wants to go to 2K or die.
Can't really tell if on cylinder is hotter than the other: only one ETS.
Will do closed loop idle and learning mode at idle on the ride to work Monday.
what's the best way to check ignition timing? |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 06:27 pm: |
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Green zone is idle close loop.
Red zone is learning mode(Closed Loop).
Blue zone is closed loop.
Black line is WOT.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 06:28 pm: |
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OK. Gas vent is not an issue.
Ran at idle for 20 minutes: AFV 100, closed loop idle on, O2 on, learning mode at idle on. No changes.
Once good and hot (220C) the idle started to go up. No change in TPS readings. Idle went to 1400 or so, and was bouncing in and out of closed loop. Set AFV to 90 with no change.
How do I data log? What can I tell from it? |
Ocbueller
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 07:11 pm: |
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Has anyone mentioned skip spark mode when bike is running too warm? Not sure if ecm retards spark or skips spark on cylinders in effort to cool down motor.
SteveH |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 08:23 pm: |
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Skip spark happens when ETS says rear cylinder is too hot.
Freeze, the more this goes on, the heat the engine is generating, and the idle is moving up, makes me think this is your TPS.
When components get hot, the resistance changes. This appears to be exactly what is happening when your engine gets hot, resistance changes in the TPS and your ECM says OK, lets move the idle BECAUSE the TPS is moving (resistance) even though you are not moving the throttle.
Your TPS is defective. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 09:09 pm: |
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Sound logic, and along the lines of today's musings. Also, it is one of the remaining few parts to replace. However, there was no change in TPS readings on ECMSpy when this ocurred. I'll be home wit a sick child, so I will replicate these conditions and watch TPS telemetry closely.
How hot does it have to get for skip-spark? |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2012 - 11:09 pm: |
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Found this:
http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/47623/6 02066.html?1304731781
Can anyone verify this? |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 04:38 am: |
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Seems to be your problem is directly related when the engine is fully warmed up. A similar problem happened to my beloved 99 X1 a few years ago.
Try check out the IAT with ecmspy when running bad and well and compare air temp/air temp correction, if this differs or not.
Have a look in this link, hope helps.
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?3842/426796
it seems, that your air temperature sensor is causing that bad idle.
The Air Temperature Sensor is either badly placed, getting heat from engine or some hot air (from the exhaust or the engine) flows along the Air Temperature Sensor and make him send a wrong signal to ECM.The effect is that the fuel is reduced now, because hot air is less dense than cold air, but as the air was cold in reality, the mixture was too lean.
Has you checked the o-rings Injectors (Other thought).
I know this type of problems are often the most difficult to find out.
Sometimes the X1 tube frame can be very bitch.
PS: Sorry for my English but I don't a native speaker
(Message edited by buellisticx1 on January 23, 2012)
(Message edited by buellisticx1 on January 23, 2012) |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 06:11 am: |
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There is two idle warmup correction ( fuel enrichment/Spark advance correction)
You mentioned that the problems started as soon as the engine temperature reaches 220 °C, so spark correction has no impact here (doesn't change above 150°C), but fuel is reduced from 100% at 200 °C to 98% at 255 °C.
So it might be worth to change that value 255º=98% to 100%, making changes in the eeprom in Idle fuel correction.
Idle fuel warmup correction:
40º= 105%
102º=105%
200º=100%
255º=98%
Idle spark advance correction:
30º=120
62º=60
100º=30
150=0
But I think that you have another issue more on the bike.
During the bike is fairly time at idle, the air temperature sensor gets hot up from the engine or from the exhaust, flows along the temperature sensor and make him send a wrong signal to ECM. For this reason the problem is more pronounced in hot than in cold.
Sorry I made a mistake telling "Idle at Tubers is closed loop", only XB has idle closed loop and not tuber frane FI, so in the X1 ECM the 02 sensor doesn't runs in idle (there isn't Closed Loop during idle), so You could try to check the box "Idle closed loop enable" in the system configuration(ECMspy/ECM-config and burn into ECM),which will cure only the symptom, not the cause." It might be helpful,so the mixture should always be stable
You could also move the IAT to another position (some people put it behind the windshield) to protect it from engine heat.
(Message edited by buellisticx1 on January 23, 2012)
(Message edited by buellisticx1 on January 23, 2012)
(Message edited by buellisticx1 on January 23, 2012) |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 10:08 am: |
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Moving the IAT is easy enough, and possibly the problem. It's location did change due to my head breather reroute, so we'll go with that this morning.
I hate to spend the money on a fuel pressure tester, but that may be next.
Any ohm diagnostic info on the TPS? |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 10:56 am: |
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Have a look
Moved the IAT and even put a fan on it. You can see that it only went up 2C. RPM's started to rise a bit, not as bad as before, but it was surging slightly like it wanted to go higher. Would hang a little @ 2K, but then come down to about 1300. I don't think IAT is the problem.
TPS readings are virtually identical too.
(Message edited by mstrfrz on January 23, 2012) |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 11:04 am: |
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You could put the IAT sensor and the TPS pot "on ice" (wrap them both with a wet towel and ice inside), so to speak, for a short term condition to see if your idle still climbs as the temp of the engine climbs during idle.
Cheap and easy "test". You'll need to move the gas tank sideways for this test.
(Message edited by two_seasons on January 23, 2012) |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 11:29 am: |
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telemetry when hot and idling @ 2K:
and what it took to get the idle back down. TPS setting is WAY low.
If I cover the throttle body with my hand, it still runs. Seems to be leaking, but on the outside of the butterfly. That shouldn't make a difference, should it?
Will now try to cool the TPS. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 11:41 am: |
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Found a vacuum leak @ the TPS. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but one thing at a time. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 12:29 pm: |
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fixing the leak smoothed things out, but did not fix the problem. RPM creeped up VERY slowly with temp. I suspect the leak only existed when hot.
Cooling the TPS had no effect.
Cooling the ETS did, as one would expect, fooling the ECM into thinking things were cooler than they are. Faulty ETS signal?
I've burned almost an entire tank chasing this problem, and even lost the plug to the comm connector! |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 01:28 pm: |
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and what it took to get the idle back down. TPS setting is WAY low. IT'S NORMAL.. It seems to me Idle mixture is too lean.
Two thing:
- I have seen your battery volts is a quite low at idle (11.5/11.9 volt) and that is not normal.
- To know if the o2 sensor runs ok, check the box "Idle closed loop enable" in the system configuration (ECMspy/ECM-config and burn into ECM), warm up the bike to normal operating temp, then if you monitor O2 sensor voltage with ECMspy/ECM runtime the EGO voltage (volt) you will can watch as it bounces between .10 and .70 Volts or so. The mixture will give a clue what's going wrong. A proper air/fuel mixture is delivered to the engine at idle if there is rapid fluctuations to get an AVERAGE of 14.7:1 |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 01:32 pm: |
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You've already replaced the ETS, right? Did you reinforce the wiring coming off the ETS as it passes out of the head? By reinforces I mean some shrink-wrap or something. My old one was shorting to the head and causing the ETS to send a false reading.
Have you ever calibrated the TPS per the Service Manual? I'm not sure how to do it without the "Scanalyzer" tool the Service Manual refers to. Maybe someone here knows how to do it with a DMM or an analog multimeter. |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 02:33 pm: |
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I suspect the leak only existed when hot.
Just possible to know if there is an intake leak after the engine is thoroughly warmed up. You must spraying them multiple times from every angle to hear if there is any significant change in idle. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2012 - 03:26 pm: |
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Calibrated the TPS? No, I haven't. How is that done?
The new ETS came with a rubber boot and aluminum shielding for the lead.
Where do you read the idle mixture?
What exactly is 'normal operating temperature?' |
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